Beethoven 9th Symphony - Alto or Tenor

[MrHCinDE]

The background is I‘ve signed up to play Beethoven‘s 9th symphony in October on the alto part. I‘ve got limited time for practice, music’s a hobby, work is very busy at the moment. I’m deciding should I invest my time in solidifying my upper register on tenor or (re-)learning alto. Access to an alto trombone is no problem.

Which factors should I consider?

I‘m thinking most important are intonation and balance. At the moment I‘m tending towards focussing my efforts on tenor as I‘d be much more familiar with the instrument, intonation would almost certainly be better than on alto and balance can be quite easily adjusted. I reckon I‘ve got time for about 20 practice hours before the first rehearsal.

[BGuttman]

When we did it our 1st player rented an alto. But this was 30 years ago and altos weren't as popular or common as they are now. He had been planning to use his King 3B but it got stolen (boo!).

I know the 1st part can be played by a good tenor player on tenor.

Issue is when the 1st trombone is doubling the altos. That's when a real alto trombone can be a godsend. You can support rather than bury them.

[AndrewMeronek]

I'd make the alto work, but if there isn't enough time, I'd go with a small bore tenor. Remember that the German writing from this period assumed 3 different timbres from the trombone section, and this was an intended tool for blending between trombones and other sections.

[RustBeltBass]

There are certain pieces in which an argument could be made for both instruments, (Brahms, Schumann).
Beethoven 9 is not one of those, go with Alto.

[GBP]

Go with the instrument you can play in tune and with your best sound. Alto can be tricky if you haven’t spent time working things out. I like Andrew’s suggestion. It is a very good compromise.

[MrHCinDE]

Update:

After further consideration I‘ve ended up focussing on playing the part on tenor.

Specifically I‘ve been practicing on my 6h and 8h. Individually I prefer the sound I make on the 8h, however, I can well believe the blend with the section and choir may be better with the 6h. Although the (Elkhart) 8h is larger, I find it quite flexible in terms of tone colour, actually more so than the (Non-Elkhart) 6h. We‘ve got a sectional with the M.D. for an hour before the first rehearsal so I‘ll figure out then which instrument to play, in consultation with him.

On another note, the M.D. has requested the trombones to write in the choir text to our parts, the idea being to be aware of the choral articulation. I don‘t have much experience of playing with choirs, is this common practice? It seems a good idea to me.

[LeTromboniste]

It's definitely a good idea to write the text and try to articulate like a singer and not an orchestral trombone player. Keep in mind that trombone players were very used to doubling choirs back then and in many cases probably didn't have dedicated trombone parts but actually read from a (texted) vocal part.

[MrHCinDE]

Well, we had the first rehearsal last night and tried out the options for small and large bore tenor. The M.D. prefers the fuller sound of the large bore. We spoke about having different timbres but actually I think due to range, differences in sound concepts and instruments we naturally have some variation anyway. As for balance, we'll have a choir of 180 or more so the M.D. isn't too concerned about being able to hear the altos.

In a few places the chords were really ringing which I'll take as an encouraging sign as we're playing together as a section for the first time. In other places we've got a bit of work to do, not least in the trombones. Unfortunately one of the 'bones was a little bit unprepared so we must have played through the trombone figures 20+ times during the trombone sectional for note-fixing, followed by an hour or so with the rest of the brass and wind and another 90 mins with full orchestra. My face was really hanging off at the end.

Can't wait for the next rehearsal, I'm enjoing the challenge.

[Fafner]

It is ideal to use alto. The concept is that each trombone plays with a different color. However, if you’re more comfortable on tenor everyone will be happier and you can still get a smaller, brighter sound on a small tenor.

As for how to play, I don’t think imitating vocal syllables is practical on modern instruments. Although there are instances where you should let the articulation help dictate the color used. I believe the most important aspect of trombone colla parte is to help provide clarity to the vocal lines.

[BurckhardtS]

It's the age old debate between 'what is historically accurate' and 'what sounds the best'. Maybe 'what's practical' too. I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer. I think the only people that can help you make the decision are the people around you, in your section and orchestra, and the music director. This is where being flexible is very handy. It seems like it's working out for you. If you were to play it again in 10 years, the decision might be different. Beethoven 9 is a great piece of music.

[harrisonreed]

I can tell you that the piece wasn't written with large or small bore tenor trombone in mind. Nor was it written with a Thein alto, Conn 36H, edwards, shires, or nearly any alto available today in mind. The composer likely did not think past "yes, trombone part", in terms of gear. So you can probably forget about historic accuracy.

Play what helps you fit into your section, into the voices, and also into the orchestra.

[AndrewMeronek]

Well, we had the first rehearsal last night and tried out the options for small and large bore tenor. The M.D. prefers the fuller sound of the large bore. We spoke about having different timbres but actually I think due to range, differences in sound concepts and instruments we naturally have some variation anyway. As for balance, we'll have a choir of 180 or more so the M.D. isn't too concerned about being able to hear the altos.

In a few places the chords were really ringing which I'll take as an encouraging sign as we're playing together as a section for the first time. In other places we've got a bit of work to do, not least in the trombones. Unfortunately one of the 'bones was a little bit unprepared so we must have played through the trombone figures 20+ times during the trombone sectional for note-fixing, followed by an hour or so with the rest of the brass and wind and another 90 mins with full orchestra. My face was really hanging off at the end.

Can't wait for the next rehearsal, I'm enjoing the challenge.

That sounds like a whole lot of fun!

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a M.D.?

[Kbiggs]

FWIW...

It’s a 180-voice choir. It sounds like you can play at a comfortable level on a large-bore tenor with consistency in the upper range. You’ve decided to play it on tenor, so go for it. If the choir were half that size or less, alto would be a more comfortable option.

The piece was most likely written with alto in mind, although performance practice at that time favored using a tenor. Remember, the late Baroque-early Romantic trombones were more similar to the Renaissance trombones (sacbuts) than they are to modern trombones.

No, it is not common practice for instrumentalists to write the text in to their music. Yes, it should be. You see it more in higher-end and professional groups. It helps to understand 1) the phrasing of the music, and 2) the text that informs the music. If you haven’t translated the text yet, do so. If necessary, write the English translation along with the German words in your music.

It is easier to emulate the text through articulation on an historic instrument than a modern one. Don’t wory about articulating the text, though. Focus on the phrasing.

[JohnL]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a M.D.?

I think "Musical Director".

[AndrewMeronek]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a M.D.?

I think "Musical Director".

Doh!

That makes sense.

[LeTromboniste]

As for how to play, I don’t think imitating vocal syllables is practical on modern instruments. Although there are instances where you should let the articulation help dictate the color used. I believe the most important aspect of trombone colla parte is to help provide clarity to the vocal lines.

Imitating vocal syllables is not really feasible no matter instrument because, because well... it's an instrument and it doesn't allow to make different syllables in any way comparable to speech or singing. However, while it is definitely easier to do on historical instruments due to having a wider available articulation palette, it is still entirely possible (and advisable) to give at least *some*thought to matching articulations with ghe text as much as possible even on modern instruments, and there are other aspects of "playing the text" that are just as easy on modern instruments. Following the general dynamic shape and local word accents/stresses of the text, for instance.

[Kbiggs]

Imitating vocal syllables is not really feasible no matter instrument because, because well... it's an instrument and it doesn't allow to make different syllables in any way comparable to speech or singing. However, while it is definitely easier to do on historical instruments due to having a wider available articulation palette, it is still entirely possible (and advisable) to give at least *some*thought to matching articulations with ghe text as much as possible even on modern instruments, and there are other aspects of "playing the text" that are just as easy on modern instruments. Following the general dynamic shape and local word accents/stresses of the text, for instance.

You said it more clearly than me.