High Note Milestone?

[PaulT]

I am returning to trombone after a long, long layoff (joined a town band) and I am, mentally, charting my progress in the regaining my chops (or what I recall of my chops). From my early trumpet days, I recall the ability of being able to hit a high "C" reliably and truly as being a personal milestone. What would be the equivalent "milestone" note for a tenor trombone player?

(I am easily at F currently, but G is a 50/50 hit or miss deal... and not good when I do hit it. I understand that it is the playing that matters, not how high you can squeak, I'm just curious. It has been fun experiencing the return of the notes.)

((I have, fortunately, not encountered any band music yet that requires anything higher than the occasional F))

[baileyman]

It's funny how long that milestone road can be.

My own milestone left a bit this last week. The exciting part is not so much what the note IS but what it MEANS. And what it means is that the notes below that are going to become increasingly useful real soon. I can't wait!

What is the milestone? Experience suggests it's about a fifth above what you need, at low effort (this isn't weightlifting after all). Whatever you think it may be, if you can play it with a vigorous noise of it in your mouth, then you're probably getting it right. Squeaks only count a little.

[BGuttman]

High C on a trumpet (2 ledger lines above the staff) translates to high Bb on a trombone (4 ledger lines above the bass staff).

There are a lot of good exercises to use to increase your range. None of them will work overnight. If G is your limit now, figure a year to get to Bb if you work with somebody who can help (teacher, coach, friend, etc.).

FWIW, baileyman just hit Bb an octave ABOVE the one I mentioned. He needs to be able to reliably hit F above that Bb for the band we both play in.

[Kingfan]

Wait, what? baileyman should reliably hit the F an octave and a fourth above the high Bb four ledger lines above the staff? My rough count would be 15 ledger lines above the bass cleff staff. What kind of diabolical band do you play in????? I have made valiant efforts to play the F that is six ledger lines above the bass cleff staff and can squeak it out if I sneak up on it.

[BGuttman]

No. Baileyman needs to hit 6 ledger lines above the bass staff. Playing an octave above that would put him above the lead trumpet.

[harrisonreed]

That's some Troorkh &!@$ right there. Even screamer jazz guys don't need THAT many high F5s...

[Bassbonechandler]

I've been working on rebuilding/building mine after my mouthpiece change. When I started with my 93d I struggled with the bolero B flat quite a bit. Now I'm set on F5!

[Kingfan]

I have the parts to Robert Curnow's "Trajectory" with an optional F5 in the solo trombone. I hit it in high school, but that was a LONG time ago... I used to double the trumpet solo on Maynard's "MacArthur Park", Jimmy Webb arrangement, and hit the F5. Again, that was over 40 years ago.

[imsevimse]

The five ledger high F in writing isn't that common. I have seen it a few times in trombone-quartets by Tommy Pedersen amongst others.

In big band arrangements I have not yet had an high F in my part, but a few E's, Eb's andf D's, but notes up to Db are very common.

To be able to play a reliable five ledger F you need to get higher when you practice. I can touch the Bb above but that note is totally useless, the same with A and Ab. Then G and F# is better.

When I play a dance gig the parts don't go much higher than high C, but they are there a lot. I have a pretty solid range up to Db.

The one who said you need to be able to hit notes a fifth higher than your every day high notes is correct. If I count my Db as my highest everyday reliable note it means I should be able to play a good fifth above. That would be an Ab which is about as high as I can play (G) and still make it sound like a controlled trombone tone.

The milestone should be that high, high Bb above the five ledger F.

/Tom

[timothy42b]

The five ledger high F in writing isn't that common. I have seen it a few times in trombone-quartets by Tommy Pedersen amongst others.

/Tom

It's in every Maxted (except those where the key signature makes it F#) and there are 20 of them.

I hear it often from the first in our trombone choir. I'm on third and may have an F4, and hear an effortless F5 perfectly in tune sitting on top of the mix out of forum member Philip.

[PaulT]

What does the '5' represent when a 'F5' is referred to? (for that matter, what does the '4' represent when a 'F4' is referred to?).

[wwright]

It refers to which octave the note is in. I can never remember those numbers so I always have to look it up here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation

[PaulT]

Thanks. It made no sense at all... until it did. And now it does.

[imsevimse]

The five ledger high F in writing isn't that common. I have seen it a few times in trombone-quartets by Tommy Pedersen amongst others.

/Tom

It's in every Maxted (except those where the key signature makes it F#) and there are 20 of them.

I hear it often from the first in our trombone choir. I'm on third and may have an F4, and hear an effortless F5 perfectly in tune sitting on top of the mix out of forum member Philip.

Is it an Alto part? Is the trombone choire arrangements made by the group? Maybe you hear an effortless F many times, but most amateurs do not and I have played with both amateurs and professionals. Most arrangements do not have the leadplayer to play that F, not even above Db.

I have heard many professional players state that the high F is a common note, but to sum up after hearing a lot of trombone music, it is not. That's not to say you do not need it. When it comes you need it so you must practice that note and also above, that's why you need to aim for the super high Bb above that F. That high Bb could be your milestone.

/Tom

[timothy42b]

I have heard many professional players state that the high F is a common note, but to sum up after hearing a lot of trombone music, it is not.

/Tom

In many years of playing in community bands, I have come across a C (octave above middle C) exactly twice, and was shocked both times. I've never seen anything written higher. Even an A or Bb is rare. Gs are not uncommon but if there's a euph in the mix it's time to play air trombone.

But yes, my third part in trombone choir occasionally goes to a C or D, and the firsts sit up in that range and do go to F on a number of arrangements.

[LeTromboniste]

There's a number of standard orchestral parts that do go to and above high D, some written for alto, some where it's debated and some what are most definitely for tenor.

Also quite a few solo pieces. Certainly not notes you see on your music stand everyday, but also definitely pieces that very many players including students and amateur will come across.

[Kingfan]

I played transcribed French horn parts in a brass quintet. Often had to play Gs, As, and Bs, Cs, and occasional Ds above middle C. Great embouchure builder!

[PaulT]

Hit the milestone today. One of them, anyway.

I started with a series of warmups and exercises I found on youtube. Then I played "Sleepy Time Gal", which has become a touchstone song for me. It was one of my favorite tunes back when I used to play, but now, 30 some years later in my second go round with the horn, I hadn't been able to finish it. I couldn't hit the highest notes.

Until today. Today I climbed right up to the top finished her off in style. Wow! So, I pulled out the tuner and went up the scale to see how high I could go... and I went right up to Bb. And I sounded pretty good. I even got some kind of high octave squeak way up there. I don't know what that was.

After working on some other trouble spots, I tried the high notes again The Bb didn't come clean every time I tried, but G and A did. My lowest notes were working well, also.

I'm pumped about getting "Sleepy Time Gal" back.


(I'm going to get some lessons from a good teacher as soon as I can find one, but in the meantime, Youtube has been quite a help. I also just got Brad Edwards book, "The Intermediate Trombonist")

[timothy42b]

Two words: Skype.