Building strength?

[Trombonegradtobe]

Hello!

I’ve recently developed a major problem in stamina and am hoping for some friendly advice. I’m currently practicing repertoire for grad school auditions but I can’t seem to play for any length of time at all. I’m not playing in any ensembles, but have been consistent in practicing everyday, a couple weeks ago I found that I can barely make it through a piece without my face aching and being unable to continue. In the past, I’ve been able to make it through multiple rehearsals and 2+ hrs of practice in and I don’t know what’s changed. I don’t know if something is wrong with my embouchure or something else. If anyone has experienced this or knows how to combat it please let me know!

P.S. my audition pieces are Martin, Wagenseil, and Hindemith

[Doug Elliott]

I give lessons by Skype.

[DougHulme]

Skype him now! No one on here knows more about your chops than he does, do it before you do some damage... Doug

[Redthunder]

Hello!

I’ve recently developed a major problem in stamina and am hoping for some friendly advice. I’m currently practicing repertoire for grad school auditions but I can’t seem to play for any length of time at all. I’m not playing in any ensembles, but have been consistent in practicing everyday, a couple weeks ago I found that I can barely make it through a piece without my face aching and being unable to continue. In the past, I’ve been able to make it through multiple rehearsals and 2+ hrs of practice in and I don’t know what’s changed. I don’t know if something is wrong with my embouchure or something else. If anyone has experienced this or knows how to combat it please let me know!

P.S. my audition pieces are Martin, Wagenseil, and Hindemith

+2 for a lesson with Doug. You’ll be glad you did.

[Burgerbob]

I was going to say that it sounds like you unconsciously changed your approach recently. Get a lesson.

[harrisonreed]

Just relax. Your face shouldn't be sore from playing, ever. Endurance comes from barely using your face, and from controlling your air flow with your tongue and throat muscles, which are far stronger than your embouchure. All your face needs to do is produce the correctly shaped and angled aperture.

Presumably you've had quite a few lessons at the undergrad level. What changed?

[Trombonegradtobe]

Thank you all for your advice, I do have a lesson coming up that should help me identify the problem, I was just hoping to get some more help if I could! And harrisonreed, I did have a lot of lessons but I’m in the middle of a gap year and am flying solo for a while.
Thanks again!

[imsevimse]

Think through what has changed.

Are you practicing different things now than you did before. Often emboushure problems can come from not using the air properly. That problem can start a domino effect with increasing problems in a lot of areas. Since you said you have had better stamina before you must have changed something or you have had some kind of injury.

I guess you need to get your fundamentals in order and you can't do wrong with a lesson from someone who knows what they are talking about. After that I bet you get some advice and some basic patterns to work at for a while.

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

Also, get a lesson with Jan Kagarice

[Neo Bri]

It's not always about strength. In fact it usually isn't about strength. It's usually about leverage and mechanics. Talk to Doug.

[harrisonreed]

http://musicianswellness.com/about/

Very expensive, but she has helped many high profile players with focal dystonia, which it sounds like you have the initial stages of.

"building strength" often is the goal that turns it into full on "I can't play any more"

[Doug Elliott]

I fix that kind of problem all the time without resorting to the FD label, which is apparently big business.

[harrisonreed]

I fix that kind of problem all the time without resorting to the FD label, which is apparently big business.

Truth. She is making a lot of dough. But she can get people back on track.

[Doug Elliott]

Yeah, so can I. Including players who have previously taken that route.

[torobone]

Has anyone ever said that they have too much embouchure strength?

[imsevimse]

Has anyone ever said that they have too much embouchure strength?

[jthomas105]

Has anyone ever said that they have too much embouchure strength?

Chuck Norris

[AndrewMeronek]

Chuck Norris doesn't play the trombone. The trombone concedes to his will.

[baileyman]

You know it does not take much strength to play one of these things. There's max 2psi in the mouth and lips resist that quite well even without training.

It may be informative to find a note that takes zero effort and zero setup. That is, totally relax. Put the horn to your totally relaxed face and gently blow. A note may happen. If it does, repeat, and pay attention to all your muscles whether they are indeed relaxed. Don't worry if it's crappy sounding. Get to know what this feels like. It may take some time repeating the process to get that feeling in your brain.

Things may happen. Air pockets, puffy cheeks, tongue in weird places, whatever, it's sure to be different from what you're doing.

Then you have a basis for comparison with whatever you have been doing. Compare the two feelings and notice the differences. Some of the difference may help the sound, and the rest of it will just be extra effort.

You can play a zero effort note forever, basically. The idea is to then trim off the little extra efforts that make you tired.

If a note does not sound, you may be able to find one that does by blowing into the mouthpiece alone. Then find that note on the horn. Use that one instead.

[imsevimse]

I don't see the point of playing totally without any tension at all anywhere, ever. I don't think anyone who has control of their playing think this is true. There is a lot of activity for any note, but it must be the correct activity which to some extent mean the less muscle work the better. It is never zero activity ever if it is going to be useful and controlled. There is no shortcut to this, only hard work. Get the basics together, take lessons from someone who knows. The point is to find an emboushure that is controlled and makes it possible to play the whole register with minimum changes. That should be your goal.

If you amuse yourself with looking at players, any player, then study their emboushure as they play. You can find many examples at YouTube. One thing that strikes me is often; If it looks good it sounds good. It's not the same as the opposite because there are examples of people who can play despite the problem they have, but if you look at especially classical musicians who do good, most of them (all I've seen) look very relaxed and still as they play, especially round the mouth. It does not mean zero activity but very controlled activity. Inspect those musicians as this is the good examples you need to follow. The maximum outcome with as little effort possible is what you want. Find a teacher!

I had never heard of Jay K before so I decided to check up on her. It is very expensive training and a lot of "if" and "buts", some condition like "you also need Alexander training" and "no Caruso". All these conditions made me even more suspicious. She says she has more than 400 successful students, and she says she has helped a lot of professionals with FD. This made me take next step which is a complete search on Internet on documented proof of success. I found her Facebook page which I read. After about an hour I begin to realise that this is not bullshit, so she is doing very well and people seems satisfied. Just my two cents. How do you get FD? Is it from a stroke?

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

No, it's from over analysis and "building strength", rather than finesse, until you literally can't play any more.

You go to put tge instrument to your face and suddenly you have duck lips.

[imsevimse]

No, it's from over analysis and "building strength", rather than finesse, until you literally can't play any more.

You go to put tge instrument to your face and suddenly you have duck lips.

Actually "duck lips" talks to me

/Tom

[bigbandbone]

This same loss of strength, endurance, and control hit me in the early 70's when I was playing professionally. At the time I was studying with Doc Reindhart in Philly. We never figured it out. It caused me to stop playing professionally and change carreer paths to instrument repair.

Now that I'm retired I am trying to play again for enjoyment. I decided to change everything. Horn, mouthpiece, and embouchure. I'm working through it on my own and having good results so far.

I wish I knew what caused my original problem in the 70's. I really loved getting paid to play tbone.

[Doug Elliott]

I am aware of a few cases where Reinhardt misdiagnosed someone's embouchure type. I would not be at all surprised if the success you have now is a different type that it was then. I'd love to talk with you about it if you want. I'm not soliciting a lesson, I'm just interested.

[paulyg]

I think that we are in danger of doing damage to ourselves if we focus too much on one thing versus another. I know that I went through a long period of focusing on "fundamentals" to the exclusion of etudes, solos, excerpts, ect... basically focusing on being a trombone player as opposed to a musician. The result was that, while I could rip out an A basically on demand, I couldn't make it through the first page of the David without airballing something.

I tended to overcorrect and play through "real music" with only a prefunctory warm up. The issue then became the opposite... I couldn't play a long tone!

What happens is that we get frustrated because we expect more- from ourselves, from the hours of focus on that one aspect of playing, at our slide for not being glassy smooth, pick your poison, and we take it out on the mechanisms that allow us the facility to play. We get angry and take it out on our embouchure, our diaphragm, our slide arm, instead of punching a wall. I know that if I had channeled my frustration at those times into clenching my little toe, I would be able to crush a rock with my foot by now.

There are two lessons to be learned. The first is that we can seriously damage our ability to play by trying to slap band-aids on our playing in the practice room. We train ourselves to always be putting out fires while we are holding our instruments, instead of training ourselves to play them successfully. The second lesson is critical, because it can compounds the ill effects of the first issue. The second lesson we have to learn is that progress is really an order of magnitude slower than we would like. We don't like to be honest with ourselves about where we really are. Progress is aiming for a first down and gaining four yards, or aiming for a touchdown and gaining a first down. That's why it's frustrating for us, when we can rip out high notes, blast low notes, dazzle our colleagues with amazing pyrotechnics during our warm-ups, and we still can't make it through the organ symphony solo without woofing a Db in the staff. At a certain point, we can't train enough to aim for what we need, and get there, without the missing ingredient- focus.

When we practice an hour of long tones, the first five minutes are valuable. Everything after that is wasted time, because we are no longer focused. Five minutes is a guideline- for some people it could be half an hour, for some people it's fractions of a second- but what we really need to work on is maintaining a laser-beam of focus throughout the entire note, phrase, passage, and song. The trick to this is starting small. Most rochuts are too long, for example. Start with mini musical phrases. Break up larger pieces. The trick is that you need to be completely focused on making music.

"Building strength" is not really about adding muscle mass in your face. Any random person can purse their lips together tight enough to stopper the air from coming out. Anyone can make adjustments to their expression that superficially mimic the greatest embouchures of the best players in history. Mimicking the sound of those great players has less to do with that, and more to do with mimicking their focus.

You mentioned that you are not playing in any ensembles at the moment. That's a huge issue. You cannot expect to sound like a musician and be totally cut off from other musicians. If playing in a group is not an option, play with a recording. The other thing you can do is to start playing with earplugs. Our instruments are designed to produce a volume that satisfies the equation 3 trombones = 80 string players. If you are only practicing on your own, especially in a confined space, you probably have a dynamic concept that is drastically softer than the concept driving the construction of the metal implement in your hand. This will frustrate you, in the same manner as I discussed above. Earplugs will also help you avoid mental fatigue. Listening to a trombone played at a healthy mf for a long period of time is exhausting for anyone, including trombone players!

[torobone]

I'm enjoying this thread, and I check it occasionally. My motivation is that through life, I've learned there are many ways to do things. Many methods are correct, but the simpler ways often lead to better, lasting results. People can get to very high levels with complex technique, but it's much tougher when things go wrong.

1. I think FD is rather the opposite of "building strength". The golfing version of FD is "the yips" where even some professional golfers lose their timing completely. Even Tiger Woods has a swing coach. It can be a long road back from FD.

2. I was introduced to one method to help with FD: David Vining's Breathing Gym. The timing of breaths seems to be an early step. Mr. Vining wrote a whole book after all.

3. When I first bought a car, it was well used enough to require me to buy a tire pressure gauge. I would be surprised if anyone using their breath could move the gauge away from zero. I tried once or twice; it's pointless for me to try again.

4. Being totally relaxed may make a sound, but likely not a sound you want.

5. I play semi-regularly with a student / customer of Doug Elliott's, and he credits Doug with saving his playing.

6. Some things require tension. In my case, my lips and perioral muscles are controlled with tension. I squeeze my lips tighter as I play higher, supporting this with some tension in my stomach muscles.

7. Other things should not have tension: shoulders, throat, a death grip on the horn, pushing the horn into my face etc. These are areas I work hard to avoid.

8. The only trombone teacher I've met who talks of "focus" and "burn" is Al Kay. I wonder why that is.

I'm trying to understand this for myself. I've made a lot of progress, but the more I learn, I realize the further I need to go!

[Trombonegradtobe]

I've been away from the site for a short while, but I'm here with a good update. Many of you suggested working at playing with no tension, which is something that I reintroduced into my practicing. Tom also suggested that my problems may be due to air deficiency which was also addressed in a lesson I had last week. In the couple weeks that I have been trying to actively address these issues, my fatigue seems to be dissipating. I'm beginning to identify (again) when my embouchure is holding too much tension and I've taken to practicing in a nearby recital hall so it's easier to recognize when my air (and subsequently my sound) is suffering. Thanks again for your help and I'm glad so many are enjoying the thread! (And I haven't forgot about a lesson Doug, I'll contact you when I'm able)