500 vs 508 bore

[Mikebmiller]

So I got my Lawler this past summer - model 1 in 500 bore with a 7 1/2 inch bell. Great horn. Since I got it, I have not even taken my 3B out of the case, so I am debating selling it. So here is a trombone geek question - can the average Joe or Jane in the audience tell a nickel's worth of difference in a 500 bore horn and a 508? I mean, we are talking about 8 THOUSANDTHS of an inch here. I am thinking I might get a 7 3/4 or 8" bell flare for the Lawler for those times when I need a slightly bigger sound out of a small bore horn, like playing 3rd in a big band or doing a pit show. I have a big horn for when that is needed and another 3B with F for occasional use. I think the mouthpiece actually makes more difference than the bore. I just got a Hammond 10M today which nicely bridges the gap between the Hammond 10ML that I use for classical small bore stuff and the Warburton 7M that I use to play lead.

I know this is nitpicking, but that what this forum is for Also, I finally managed to get my password reset after a month in lala land without being able to login here.

[Matt K]

I think like most things, you'll find that its a spectrum. Could the audience tell if you were playing a bass trombone instead? Some, no. Others, yes. But maybe not for all of the things you play, but possibly for all the things you play. Okay then, what about a 547 horn? Probably more "no" and fewer "yes". So on and so forth until you get down to the same bore size but other differing components.

At the end of the day, it boils down to what is the easiest for you to get the sound you want. The horn magnifies what you are putting out. So if you can play everything on a 500 easier than a 508.... then no, nobody is going to be able to tell. Unless they're hearing with their eyes, which is more common than one might think!

[BGuttman]

There is little practical difference between the various small bores. There are inflections and you may find that the smaller the bore the easier the high range is (and the stuffier the low range is). But you can play basically anything on any horn from 0.485" (Conn 4H) to 0.509" (Bach 16M). Especially us amateurs.

Note that a heavier horn plays "bigger" than a lighter horn. Compare a Conn 24H against a 4H and you can see the difference.

An F-attachment makes it convenient in tight quarters for things like shows and you already have a 3B with F so you can probably dump the 3B and just use the Lawlor.

[Digidog]

In my opinion, and from my experience, a smaller bore gives a more pronounced "dead register", wherever your specific instrument happens to have it. With "dead register" I mean that all instruments must make a compromise with tone and response somewhere along the register of the instrument. Most often better made instruments deal better with that compromise.

My Bach 16 doesn't play well from low G 'til E, while the fake pedal tones of Eb and downwards sound great. My Yamaha 697 is weak on the low fake tones Eb down to C, but comes back superbly at low B and Bb. In the high register, the Bach isn't playing too well from B to C#, while the 697 has a terrible D and Eb, both of which I always struggle with.

With my old and worn King 3B, which is larger than those two (and doesn't play as well either), the transition into the "dead register" is much smoother, less pronounced and doesn't demand the tight control of airflow the other two do.

This is of course subjective, and I don't even know if anybody else but me use the term "dead register", but my experience have told me that people absolutely can discern instrument variation from each other, but not in a conscious and articulate way. Wise from troublesome performances, I carefully scout what register I get to play in before picking the appropriate horn (except if it's a bass or alto trombone gig, of course.....).

[Corey]

0.008 Difference isn’t a lot but changes to the diameter have a huge effect on resistance. So it won’t change the sound so much as the feel. And of course, the low register will be easier, high register harder. But not much.

[hyperbolica]

I'm with the guy who said the 508 feels slightly different more than it sounds different. You might be able to hear a difference if the bore sizes were played back to back.

But then I'm the guy who bought Selmer Bolero, 3B, Yamaha 691, 891z, Bach 16M, Conn 30h, and Shires MD+ just to see the differences. I'd love to add a Lawler to the list, but I've spent enough money on horns, and the MD+ is a great enough horn to make me stop looking.

The main thing I learned by owning all those horns is that they all sound great, and you can get a dark sound from the Selmer, 3B Silversonic and Bach, or bright from the Yamaha or Shires. From the average listener's point of view, they're all within a gnat's ass of one another, played by the same player. They are further apart from behind the bell. To me the biggest differences between bore sizes are the air and the articulation. If you sound great on an 891z no one is going to complain about your sound on a Bolero, or a Conn 24h for that matter. And the nuance in the sound comes down to one of two things - either it gets lost in all the noise from the rest of the band, or it's like comparing blackberry pie with blueberry pie - they are both wonderful in different ways. You might like one better than the other, but you couldn't really say definitively that one is really better than the other.

[Mikebmiller]

The only problem with selling the 3B would be that it would put me down to 3 horns and I might not be considered a trombone hoarder anymore. I have a reputation to protect.

[baileyman]

The extra size raises the volume level at which it lights up.

The edge on the sound conveys "loud" to the listener no matter what the dB level is.

In big band especially, the rhythmic accenting has to light up a little even at modest volumes. So choose a horn where you can play a mf section with lit up accents.

If you are a soloist and you want to convey rhythm really well, choose a horn that will light up only when you accent at your preferred solo volume. So you get ordinary tone in between the accenting.

All this will also depend on your piece.

[imsevimse]

I prefer .485 to .500 before .508 for lead parts. I would not say small bores are "stuffer" the smaller they are. I think that often is more coused by not finding the sweet spot in the smaller horn. This happens a lot if you are not used to play that size, maybe you are not comfortable on a smaller mouthpiece either. You have to adopt to smaller/larger equipment and then I'm talking about years of switching to find the sweet spot on different horns. You need less air and a different blow on horns that are smaller or else the air comes back at you and you will feel the "stuffyness" feeling. Air and volume is a difference and especially to get a volumious sound in the low register is going to be different. The sound in the high register is also a diffetent were the smaller bores are "lighter" sounding and can cut at less volume. This is my experience from playing all kinds of bones.

/Tom

[Davidus1]

I recently played a Yamaha 691 (.508) and at the time was playing a Yamaha 354 (.500). I could "feel" a difference as the 691 felt much more open to me. Not sure what the sound was like to others but the feel was different. Like both as I think the 354s are great instruments.

[brtnats]

I play an 891Z (.508) in all situations that call for a tenor. I moved to it from an Elkhart 12H (.484) when I consolidated down to 2 horns (which was a GREAT idea, btw).

I think all .508 horns on the market today are ultimately descended from 3B lineage, and that a .508 horn also comes with a set of features from that lineage. Generally we’re talking lighter slides, 8 inch bells, 3B tapers, mostly rounded end crooks (been a while since I’ve blown a Bach 16). Those kinds of horns were programmed for commercial work, and they show a lot of flexibility in sound and playability. I use my Z for classical music too, and it works really well in the right settings. Records well too, but at the expense of smaller, 2B-like punchiness.

.500? I’m thinking 6H and company over the last 60+years. Different lineages, different demands. Does a 6H sound like a 3B from the same era? What about a 100H vs a 3B from the same period? There’s your real answer, I think. It’s not just a bore size unless you’re strictly dealing with modular horns. It’s also a design philosophy.

[dukesboneman]

Just my 2 cents,
I have 2 Bach 12`s (.500) and a 16MG (.509) I notice a difference . However, that being said, the difference between the horns is more feel than sound. If they are your horns, you are going sound like you on them. My 16MG is slightly heavier in the bell. I also have a Kanstul H8 leadpipe in it. This horn has the most beautiful dark rich sound, lots on lower overtones in the sound. If I get a call to do you high Dorsey stuff or a Watrous-y lyric ballad that`s my horn of choice.
Now my 2 12's are different from each other. my daily driver is an Lt12G with a Kanstul W6 leadpipe. It very light, quick response and beautiful high range. the other is all stock with a yellow bell and standard slide. Great upper range. I just prefer the light weight slide

[MalecHeermans]

When I bought my Lawler recently (review coming soon - I promise!) I asked Roy if he would be willing to send both a .500 and a .508 slide, which he graciously agreed to do. Both were otherwise of the same specs with an all brass build.

I found a considerable difference between the two. The .500 slide plays more compact and punchier while the .508 slide (which I reluctantly returned) had a wider, juicier, thing happening with more bloom to the sound.

I was shopping for an instrument to use in horn sections and on lead in big bands so I went for the .500 bore which offers a very uniform and super articulate sound that can slot into ensembles. The .508 would work too, but I felt that was leaning more toward a sound you would want for small group improvisational stuff and/or a situation where you want to be able to put some more air through the horn to get some sizzle - the .508 had a wider color palette.

They are close, but when you are out here doing it day in day out all day and into the wee hours it's nice to have the tool that will give the best possible chance to achieve the sound you want in any given situation.

Which is why my next horn will be a .508.

[StefanHaller]

Which bell flares do you have, and would you say that this difference between the slides is bigger than the difference between the flares?

[MalecHeermans]

I have an all yellow brass model 1 with a yellow brass .022 7 3/4" flare. I also tried a .020 8" flare that I didn't care for.

The swappable flare thing definitely offers you the opportunity to change colors and I can imagine, though I only tried two flares that were relatively close in build, that you could get some pretty dramatic changes. It's a cost effective and very efficient way to achieve that.

That said changing slide bores is a completely different kind of change. It alters the entire system rather than adjusting colors on an existing base.

[Mikebmiller]

I ordered my 8” flair yesterday. Heck, maybe I will sell the 3b and get a 508 slide one of these days.

Life was simpler when I only had 2 trombones and didn’t really dwell too much on the specs.

[MalecHeermans]

I ordered my 8” flair yesterday. Heck, maybe I will sell the 3b and get a 508 slide one of these days.

Life was simpler when I only had 2 trombones and didn’t really dwell too much on the specs.

Yeah for me it's get the right thing, or close to it, then go to work and forget about the thing.

[Arrowhead]

Invite someone over your house who IS NOT a musician. Play both horns and ask for their opinion. Then, experiment with different mouthpieces on each horn and ask for their opinion. You may be surprised by what they say.

[Burgerbob]

I don't want to resurrect a dead topic, but my 3B feels more "legit" than any .500 I've played. I can play the same kind of articulations I do on a .547 and they aren't complete overkill like they would be on a smaller horn.

That's definitely not good for everything! For what I do, it's perfect.

[baileyman]

Invite someone over your house who IS NOT a musician. Play both horns and ask for their opinion. Then, experiment with different mouthpieces on each horn and ask for their opinion. You may be surprised by what they say.

A similar thing like this really surprised me. I gave a ride to a singer, one with really good time, pitch and style. My car only plays trombone, so The World's Greatest Jazz Band rolled around on random pick, Lou McGarrity and Carl Fontana trading.

"How do you like that trombone player's (Fontana) sound?"

"It's okay."

"How about the other one?"

You mean there are TWO?"

[Arrowhead]

Lol, that means she wasn't really listening! Her mind was somewhere else:)

[Arrowhead]

When you say "3B" which version of the 3B are we talking about? Some of them are great, and some of them play dead.

[brtnats]

I don't want to resurrect a dead topic, but my 3B feels more "legit" than any .500 I've played. I can play the same kind of articulations I do on a .547 and they aren't complete overkill like they would be on a smaller horn.

That's definitely not good for everything! For what I do, it's perfect.

100% chance AidanBob will sell or trade that horn. He cannot help himself

[Burgerbob]

I don't want to resurrect a dead topic, but my 3B feels more "legit" than any .500 I've played. I can play the same kind of articulations I do on a .547 and they aren't complete overkill like they would be on a smaller horn.

That's definitely not good for everything! For what I do, it's perfect.

100% chance AidanBob will sell or trade that horn. He cannot help himself

Give it a couple months at least! So far I love this thing... May be the best trombone I own.

[Leanit]

Bore is just one factor among many (some of which can't be measured) that affect how a horn blows and sounds. I've played different vintages of Bach 12s 16s and 16M's, and when played blind, you can detect "stuffy/open" or "bright/dark", but it's usually impossible to tell which is a single/dual/smaller/larger. Don't get hung up on the numbers until you try it.

[imsevimse]

Bore is just one factor among many (some of which can't be measured) that affect how a horn blows and sounds. I've played different vintages of Bach 12s 16s and 16M's, and when played blind, you can detect "stuffy/open" or "bright/dark", but it's usually impossible to tell which is a single/dual/smaller/larger. Don't get hung up on the numbers until you try it.

I think it depends on who is comparing the horns and how the test is set up.If I know one is .485 and one is .500 then it is easy. If I just are handled a horn and blindtest it to say what bore it is then it is more difficult and from the sound alone it can be difficult to tell.

/Tom

[Mikebmiller]

Well I sold the 3B but still have the 3b/F. That is a very versatile horn. I played a week of Forum on it last week but then switched to a 525 for the second weekend to get a little more pop down low. But I doubt if anyone noticed.