Best Dependent bass design?

[Mertelstein]

Another +1 for the DG here. I absolutely adore it. Sure it's not appropriate for many settings, but it really is as others have said its own animal and when it's the right horn, there is really nothing like it. I love the original trigger set-up too - it just "works" for me.

That said: on Aidan's point about dependents (or deepys - I liked that!) being more or less obsolete, I'd suggest this is another case of the UK and the US being divided by a common language...in the military bands in the UK, from casual observation, dependents are by far more prevalent than independents, so they do still have life in one small part of the world!

I don't know many settings where a DG would be clearly inappropriate while a Conn/Bach/Edwards/Shires /Rath/M&W/Thein double would be clearly appropriate. DGs have been played in every setting. It's a matter of player and approach.

On this one I was a little nervous about the reactions I've had elsewhere when I've said this so hedged my bets. FWIW I played exclusively a DG when I was pro in the UK - basically I only had the money for one bass, and that was the one, so you made it work for everything. I adore it and it's still my favourite horn. BUT recently in some of my (amateur) work, my own reflection is that I've found that my DG (not the original I had which was stolen, but a replacement I've had for 15 years which was just as good but had a silvered bell and wasn't an SS) just doesn't blend with (e.g.) an orchestral section of large bore red brass tenors and (particularly) an Eastman York-type Tuba. Or rather - it can be MADE to blend, but the effort to do so is really quite something. Whereas my other horn - a late 70s Conn 73H which I've never got on with very well - blends with far less effort.

I say about never getting along with that 73H - for a person who, on large bore tenors, swears by 88H it was a surprise for me, but I have found the combination of the valves (which have always felt a LOT tighter than the DG or even my Elkhart 88H when playing, even with proper alignment and work done on them) and the slightly longer-than-usual slide, it's just too quirky to ever be a truly "enjoyable" experience that I get from my DG. It was the temporary replacement I got while trying to find a replacement DG, and I couldn't wait to hop back to the DG after. But as said above, for certain situations, it is definitely a better (if not as fun) choice - but appreciate that's very much down to individual tastes!

[biggiesmalls]

Maybe not the best design? But I bought an old Yamaha 612 and had it upgraded with some levers and leadpipe from the 830, added a screw collar, and it plays really quite well. D and Eb attachments. All for less than half the price of a custom boutique dependent…think I was $2400 all in.

This^^^

I've bought and sold a number of stock 612's, and although I'm not a bass player, these horns played so well and so consistently that they almost made me want to become one. Perfect candidates for modifying on a budget. These old Yamahas are a big bang for the buck (or pound, or Euro or...).

The N series Elkhart 62H I sold before the Pandemic was the single best playing vintage Conn I have ever owned, regardless of bore size or era. The valve registers matched up nicely with the open horn, and the high register slotting, response and intonation were to die for. If I were a bass player, I would have split the triggers and lived happily ever after, because I would probably never would have become proficient enough to play much of modern solo literature that is written with independent valves in mind anyway, and dependents would have been just fine for practically all of the repertoire I would have found my gray-haired self playing, thank you very much.

But what do I know? Just a tenor player adding my two cents to a high dollar conversation.

[Finetales]

Younger players started on Independent and never tried anything else.

I don't think that's quite true. There are still a lot of schools that have single valve or dependent basses.

Yep. The only reason the Bach 50B2 is still manufactured at all (still with the non-split triggers, no less...) is that schools keep buying them. This is true for a good portion of Conn-Selmer's lineup, especially the euphoniums and tubas. I suspect this is also true of the Yamaha YBL-620G, which was marketed as an "intermediate" bass from the outset. I always liked how the 620G looked, that's one of the better-looking stacked setups IMO.

My high school had 2 Bach 50B3Os, a shiny newer one and a worn older one with the L bell. I went from zero valves to those, so I learned both valves at once.

Regarding the utility of the forum: sometimes there's... just nothing to talk about. Maybe we'll get to a point where everything has been talked about.

Nonsense! We can always come up with crazy horn ideas and spitball about them. That triple dependent thread is due for a resurrection...

...or we could have yet another "underrated horns" thread.

[Posaunus]

Regarding the utility of the forum: sometimes there's... just nothing to talk about. Maybe we'll get to a point where everything has been talked about.

Yeah, right. Reminds me of the (apocryphal) tale about about a proposal in the late 1800s that the U.S. Patent Office be closed, since "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

[tbonesullivan]

What you are describing also circles around so-called "Bollinger" tuning, which technically wasn't invented by him to the best of my knowledge but he is obviously somewhat famous for using the tuning system b/c of a book he wrote on it. The basic idea is you want to keep your hand somewhere in the middle of the slide as much as possible for technical reasons, and tuning it a particular way (close to Bb/F/G/Eb or Bb/F/Eb) allows you to do so, though at the expense of having to farther out on the slide for other notes.

I had thought about that, though whether you have the "in tune" notes line up in 1st position or somewhere around 3rd, you still need to learn a different set of positions for every different tuning.

Of course, I'm also of the mind that honestly the bass trombone is a very poor design for that type of playing. It's an ergonomic nightmare to freely move between all the key areas of the instrument, and there would be much better ways to design it if the intention was to have that kind of facility. It would probably end up looking like a 2 or 3 valve cimbasso with a slide, and by that time just make it a cimbasso. A "manually compensated" valve instrument or something like that.

[GabrielRice]

Imma be honest and say something that might hurt some feelings.

If you think you need an inline instrument to play whatever anybody can throw at you, you need to practice your scales a whole lot more and leave the 2nd valve out of the equation for a while. Pretty much anything you think you need the G or G-flat valve by itself to play in some fast passage can be done between 3rd and 5th position using the F valve and the open horn.

And if you need proof, check out all of Dave Taylor's discography. Try to find someone who has a bootleg copy of Doug Yeo playing the John Williams Tuba Concerto with Poston Pops...or listen to any of his other recordings. Listen to Randy Hawes first CD Melodrama, which was recorded on a dependent Bach. Listen to Max Seigel on his solo CD BlueBird, or on any recording by Kyle Saulnier's Awakening Orchestra, or the Roy Hargrove Big Band. Or Stefan Schulz. Or John Rojak.

Choose to play whatever you want to play - I play inline valves now because I like having those options - but practice your scales and play in tune.

[harrisonreed]

Only the realest real bass trombone playuhs will be playing like:

[elmsandr]

Nonsense! We can always come up with crazy horn ideas and spitball about them. That triple dependent thread is due for a resurrection...

...or we could have yet another "underrated horns" thread.

Speaking of which, I have a triple dependent neckline with one valve mounted… the other two valves are mounted to each other and I have to trim the tube between them and then assembly will speed forward. ‘F’ tuning slide ready to go, will need to trim a bend to make the ‘G’ tuning slide work, then just have to fit the D slide and not look like a garbage can.

(But I’ve stalled while I figure out a better triple Indy)
/ducks

Cheers,
Andy

[MTbassbone]

+1 for the Yamaha YBL-620G. One time I was trying out horns at Dillon Music and it was the best horn in the store IMHO.

[Finetales]

Speaking of which, I have a triple dependent neckline with one valve mounted… the other two valves are mounted to each other and I have to trim the tube between them and then assembly will speed forward. ‘F’ tuning slide ready to go, will need to trim a bend to make the ‘G’ tuning slide work, then just have to fit the D slide and not look like a garbage can.

That's what I like to hear!

(But I’ve stalled while I figure out a better triple Indy)
/ducks

3 inline or 2 inline with a 3rd dependent?

[AtomicClock]

a better triple Indy

Loop lengths aside, what do you think of the Schagerl superbone arrangement?

[gbedinger]

Nothing to see here, operator error.

[gbedinger]

So the title of this thread is Best Dependent Bass design.

Wow, quite a few more entries since I turned my phone out last nite! At any rate, Bill, that was a useful summary you gave in the previous page.

[Dennis]

Imma be honest and say something that might hurt some feelings.

If you think you need an inline instrument to play whatever anybody can throw at you, you need to practice your scales a whole lot more and leave the 2nd valve out of the equation for a while. Pretty much anything you think you need the G or G-flat valve by itself to play in some fast passage can be done between 3rd and 5th position using the F valve and the open horn.

Need? No. Outside of brass band I could do almost all my playing on a single. (And in truth, if I took the ossia alternatives offered, I could do a lot of my brass band playing on a single or even a straight Bb horn.) There are half-a-dozen (maximum) things I've seen that require a G or bG or Gb valve to play, and they all have glissandi that you can't do on a Bb or F horn. (Maybe some can be done on a D horn...I'm not sure.)

I want my life to be easier. I also really like being able to adjust F2 and C3, but I suppose that's another component of making my life easier.

[GabrielRice]

Need? No. Outside of brass band I could do almost all my playing on a single. (And in truth, if I took the ossia alternatives offered, I could do a lot of my brass band playing on a single or even a straight Bb horn.) There are half-a-dozen (maximum) things I've seen that require a G or bG or Gb valve to play, and they all have glissandi that you can't do on a Bb or F horn. (Maybe some can be done on a D horn...I'm not sure.)

I want my life to be easier. I also really like being able to adjust F2 and C3, but I suppose that's another component of making my life easier.

Very few composers really understand glissandi on the trombone, and virtually anything can be faked to make it sound as the composer intended.

I don't understand your comment about adjusting F2 and C3. You can't or don't do that on the F valve?

[Matt K]

I think what they're saying is that it gives them thestability to have the F remain where it is and adjust a secondary valve to be flexible in it's tuning orientation for the notes that overlap (e.g. like Tiffany was saying how she uses the Gb valve for F more than the F valve, which I also find myself in a similar boat).

[tbonesullivan]

+1 for the Yamaha YBL-620G. One time I was trying out horns at Dillon Music and it was the best horn in the store IMHO.

They are really a lovely horn. As I've probably mentioned before, I have the predecessor, the YBL-612 RII, and it's a great horn, usable for a LOT of different repertoire. It's not constantly stuck in "orchestra mode" like the 822G, 830, and 835 series.

I currently am playing a Christmas program with it and a Ferguson Jeff Reynolds replica, and it plays and sounds great for both Nutcracker and Christmas Festival.

[elmsandr]

a better triple Indy

Loop lengths aside, what do you think of the Schagerl superbone arrangement?

Ergonomics seem awkward…. My plan is to do three inline with a modified Haynor type grip to allow a relatively neutral wrist posture and use standard 1-2-3 valve fingers and fingering. Maybe a slight extention but the schagerl seems to require a heck of a rotation and ulnar deviation to hold and operate.

IMG_9904.jpeg

This will be more of a “super bone” large tenor with some slide changes available. Short answer, I want to have a standard ish superbone AND a Bb/F/G available. This started as I was going to build a double tenor for the flexibility and then thought why stop there when I’m doing something stupid. I’m still collecting parts for this, so it will be a ways off less I decide to spend real money on it, and this isn’t the top project on the list for real money investment. If it works well enough I may try a bass version, too.

Back on topic, that top project on my list is to make the Fuchs downstairs playable with a dependent setup drop in valve. Or maybe even permanently mounted. One thing I want to maintain is a semi open wrap that is contained within the Bb horn envelope. Nothing big sticking out back. The Fuchs single wrap is gorgeous and I need to not screw that up.

Cheers,
Andy

[Dennis]

Very few composers really understand glissandi on the trombone, and virtually anything can be faked to make it sound as the composer intended.

I don't understand your comment about adjusting F2 and C3. You can't or don't do that on the F valve?

On composers understanding trombones generally and glissandi in particular, amen to that. Those who do understand them are trombonists themselves. I'm thinking of Dorothy Gates in particular--she plays in the Salvation Army New York Staff Band. If she writes it, she knows it's plausible and expects to hear it.

Also, you've undoubtedly forgotten more about this stuff than I know, Gabe. You certainly know a lot more about trombone pedagogy than I'll ever know.

I'm talking about conflict between tuning them on the F-valve. If I keep the F-valve loop short enough that I can tune them both for sustained notes I lose C2 at the bottom of the slide with the F valve. It's too sharp even on my Bach's longer slide to be useful for a sustained note but it's extremely useful to have in passing. I usually take F2 and C3 on the finger valve (a sharp Gb on my horns) or in 6th on the open horn. More options for adjusting the pitch while staying in the center of the slot that way.

[GabrielRice]

I'm talking about conflict between tuning them on the F-valve. If I keep the F-valve loop short enough that I can tune them both for sustained notes I lose C2 at the bottom of the slide with the F valve. It's too sharp even on my Bach's longer slide to be useful for a sustained note but it's extremely useful to have in passing. I usually take F2 and C3 on the finger valve (a sharp Gb on my horns) or in 6th on the open horn. More options for adjusting the pitch while staying in the center of the slot that way.

Ah, I see where you're going now...Ray Premru - who played his whole career almost entirely on a single valve - would pull his F slide about 2 inches when he needed to play a low C. I do that when playing a single as well.

I knew a player who figured out a new tuning when he replaced his Bach 50B2 with a 50B3 in the 70s. He would have the F valve very long - too long to play F or C in 1st but a great low C in 7th, and then play all Fs and Cs in the staff on the Gb valve. With today's better valves it's much less necessary to come up with solutions like that.

[tbonesullivan]

Ah, I see where you're going now...Ray Premru - who played his whole career almost entirely on a single valve - would pull his F slide about 2 inches when he needed to play a low C. I do that when playing a single as well.

I knew a player who figured out a new tuning when he replaced his Bach 50B2 with a 50B3 in the 70s. He would have the F valve very long - too long to play F or C in 1st but a great low C in 7th, and then play all Fs and Cs in the staff on the Gb valve. With today's better valves it's much less necessary to come up with solutions like that.

Doesn't one of the Ostrander bass trombone methods go over "Flat F" tuning and positions for the Attachment? Basically to get an in tune low C at the end of the slide, sacrificing the C and low F in first position.

I skipped that section as honestly there wouldn't have been any purpose. If I need a low C I'm using a double valve. There's also I think an E pull section, which I also skipped.

[Kbiggs]

Imma be honest and say something that might hurt some feelings.

If you think you need an inline instrument to play whatever anybody can throw at you, you need to practice your scales a whole lot more and leave the 2nd valve out of the equation for a while. Pretty much anything you think you need the G or G-flat valve by itself to play in some fast passage can be done between 3rd and 5th position using the F valve and the open horn.

Need? No. Outside of brass band I could do almost all my playing on a single. (And in truth, if I took the ossia alternatives offered, I could do a lot of my brass band playing on a single or even a straight Bb horn.)

I can attest to learning scales for the Bb, F, and Gb horns. A few years ago when I had Kanstul CR valves on my customized independent Bach, one of the valves got stuck during performance—I don’t remember which now, but I think it was the F-valve. Fortunately, the pieces weren’t that heavy below the staff, but I had to quickly re-think some in-staff slide and valve work using the G-flat valve. If I had been playing a dependent horn, I might have had to leave out a few notes or resorted to using factitious tones. Either way, I would have had a hard time of it.

There are half-a-dozen (maximum) things I've seen that require a G or bG or Gb valve to play, and they all have glissandi that you can't do on a Bb or F horn. (Maybe some can be done on a D horn...I'm not sure.)

I want my life to be easier. I also really like being able to adjust F2 and C3, but I suppose that's another component of making my life easier.

I think a lot of composers don’t understand the details of harmonics/partials on brass instruments, and especially when writing a “true” glissando. Perhaps they assume that the trombone can make a gliss from the lowest tone to the highest without any break. Like Montgomery Scott said, “I cannae change the laws o’ physics, captain!” We can, however, sound like we’re doing just that.

[tbonesullivan]

I can attest to learning scales for the Bb, F, and Gb horns. A few years ago when I had Kanstul CR valves on my customized independent Bach, one of the valves got stuck during performance—I don’t remember which now, but I think it was the F-valve. Fortunately, the pieces weren’t that heavy below the staff, but I had to quickly re-think some in-staff slide and valve work using the G-flat valve. If I had been playing a dependent horn, I might have had to leave out a few notes or resorted to using factitious tones. Either way, I would have had a hard time of it.

I've always been on the fence over just how high in the register I should learn the F, Gb, and D sides of the horn. Especially in the higher partials, when you have that much more tubing involved, the tuning quirks and such just become that much worse. Also things can get pretty squirrely as well, like playing "fake" pedal Bb in D position 5.

I do however think a lot about Double horns, compensating instruments, and also tubas with 6 valves and such, which have some that are used almost entirely only for one or two specific notes. The trombone is unique due to the slide, so the problems they have to deal with, we don't. I have a book full of alternate "in tune" fingerings for Compensating Bb Euphonium without a trigger, and that's when I realized just how different playing a trombone is from playing just about any other brass instrument.

[GabrielRice]

I've always been on the fence over just how high in the register I should learn the F, Gb, and D sides of the horn. Especially in the higher partials, when you have that much more tubing involved, the tuning quirks and such just become that much worse. Also things can get pretty squirrely as well, like playing "fake" pedal Bb in D position 5.

One of the best things I ever did for my playing was start making 5, 6, and 7 note lip slurs on the valves part of my daily routine. Slow, fast, and everything in between. Being able to do accurate slurs over 2 octaves with both valves down is great for tone production and air.

[Wilco]

Imma be honest and say something that might hurt some feelings.

If you think you need an inline instrument to play whatever anybody can throw at you, you need to practice your scales a whole lot more and leave the 2nd valve out of the equation for a while. Pretty much anything you think you need the G or G-flat valve by itself to play in some fast passage can be done between 3rd and 5th position using the F valve and the open horn.

Need? No. Outside of brass band I could do almost all my playing on a single. (And in truth, if I took the ossia alternatives offered, I could do a lot of my brass band playing on a single or even a straight Bb horn.) There are half-a-dozen (maximum) things I've seen that require a G or bG or Gb valve to play, and they all have glissandi that you can't do on a Bb or F horn. (Maybe some can be done on a D horn...I'm not sure.)

I want my life to be easier. I also really like being able to adjust F2 and C3, but I suppose that's another component of making my life easier.

The Europa wide brassband testpiece Sand and Stars of last years’ contesting was definately written with the independent in mind.

Bassbone had a little mute thing at 5:40. There is a gliss from low Eb to F#. My solution was a fake Eb in 7th and then gliss up.

And there where some other places that needed creative solutions

[Pieter]

F# -1st, F 2nd, E 3rd, Eb: 5th position?!

Odd choice of notation

I do really like the ybl-620G, it not being independent is just a minor thing.
Thoseh ave a removable bit of tube on the second valve to tune it to Eb instead of D. I wonder if anyone still uses that tuning.

[Dennis]

I'd handle the lick at 359 by pulling one of the valve slides so that I have Bb2 at the end of the slide (or if I have enough length to put Bb2 around 6th with both valves, I might do that), and play everything else on the open horn.

The lick at 383 is going to require D2 on both valves or Bb2 out at the end of the slide. I'd try it both ways and see how what works best for me.

The gliss from Eb2 to F#2 requires a short valve--G might actually work better than Gb for that one.

Eb is in 4th position on a Gb trombone, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5th position on a Bb trombone. It's an abusive notation, but it's what composers use.

[Savio]

+1 for the Yamaha YBL-620G. One time I was trying out horns at Dillon Music and it was the best horn in the store IMHO.

I have one! Great and easy trombone to play. Nice sound too. The wrap looks cool, never seen it in other trombones.

Leif

[tbonesullivan]

One of the best things I ever did for my playing was start making 5, 6, and 7 note lip slurs on the valves part of my daily routine. Slow, fast, and everything in between. Being able to do accurate slurs over 2 octaves with both valves down is great for tone production and air.

Hmm... that is a very good point. I usually only do 3 note slurs all the way down the valves, leaving the 7 and 8 note slurred and tongued exercises up through the partials to do without any valves involved.

I'll definitely have to try that. I could use some increased security.

[jonathanharker]

I'd handle the lick at 359 by pulling one of the valve slides so that I have Bb2 at the end of the slide (or if I have enough length to put Bb2 around 6th with both valves, I might do that), and play everything else on the open horn.

The lick at 383 is going to require D2 on both valves or Bb2 out at the end of the slide. I'd try it both ways and see how what works best for me.

I'd do 383 starting on pedal in 1st, D in (F)4th, and F in 6th, and 389 looks like pedal in 1st, F in (F)1st, Gb in 5th, Bb in (F)3rd, etc. The Eb-Gb slur needs an indy, sure, but unless you're by yourself, it's amazing what you can get away with in a texture!

[tbonesullivan]

I do really like the ybl-620G, it not being independent is just a minor thing.
Thoseh ave a removable bit of tube on the second valve to tune it to Eb instead of D. I wonder if anyone still uses that tuning.

I could see a valve that drops a whole step being useful in some situations. It also does lighten up the horn considerably if you aren't playing repertoire that requires the second valve.

[Dennis]

I'd handle the lick at 359 by pulling one of the valve slides so that I have Bb2 at the end of the slide (or if I have enough length to put Bb2 around 6th with both valves, I might do that), and play everything else on the open horn.

The lick at 383 is going to require D2 on both valves or Bb2 out at the end of the slide. I'd try it both ways and see how what works best for me.

I'd do 383 starting on pedal in 1st, D in (F)4th, and F in 6th, and 389 looks like pedal in 1st, F in (F)1st, Gb in 5th, Bb in (F)3rd, etc. The Eb-Gb slur needs an indy, sure, but unless you're by yourself, it's amazing what you can get away with in a texture!

That could work at 383, but getting from 6 back to 1 at tempo could be an issue.

[SamBTbrn]

I only play independent bass and the only one of these I would consider using the 2nd valve Independently is that gliss from En to the f#, but again it's possible to find a solution without it.

The other "fast" licks, even with my independent bass I wouldn't think to use the 2nd valve to play them. Just be quick on the slide....

[LIBrassCo]

New one I just made. I get what the hoopla is with hagmanns for sure, plus they just look cool.

[Rrova]

I was at the American Trombone Workshop today and there were four Greenhoe bass trombones, one of which was dependent. I honestly could not notice any advantage in terms of blow with the dependent, and one who is totally open to either. BTW, I REALLY like the GC5 model! Which is odd as I’ve played Bach my whole life! I also really like the horns with Hagmanns as well. Unfortunately no dependents ones there. Jeff’s dependent looks really cool!

[nateaff]

The Doug Yeo Yamaha is is perfect except for one significant flaw, both legs of valve wrap are on the left side, so the bell section is always flopping away from you, which could be annoying holding it any longer than a few minutes.

[tbonesullivan]

The Doug Yeo Yamaha is is perfect except for one significant flaw, both legs of valve wrap are on the left side, so the bell section is always flopping away from you, which could be annoying holding it any longer than a few minutes.

I've never had any issues with mine. The Holton TR181 also has all the plumbing on the same side. I think the King Duo Gravis also had both attachments on the same side, though sometimes I see the second valve on the right and not the left.