TromboneChat

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:55 pm**

Tbarh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:54 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:22 pm

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.
Maybe Just a result of wanting the best sound possible..

Oh please.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:04 am**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:55 pm
Tbarh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:54 pm
Maybe Just a result of wanting the best sound possible..
Oh please.

Yes, Elkhart 88H, 60H,62H,Fuchs, Holton 169,E185, tr185.. Best sound possible..For a lot of players.. Edwards and Shires are fully available over here also.. A lot of violin makers have tried to make a violin that plays better than a Stradivarius.. Maybe some have done it also.. But none of them are as succesful as the ones doing good attempts to copy a Stradivarius.. Maybe its more about getting the "right" sound?

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:24 am**

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:04 am
Maybe its more about getting the "right" sound?

Eh. In fact, there are string instruments available (which, by the way, are NOT cheap) from makers that do many things better than Stradivarius instruments. Some even sound like... a louder Stradivarius. I'd guess that soloists using a Stradivarius or a Guarneri or Amati are doing it for the not-insignificant numbers of audience members who listen with their eyes. Many of them don't even own the instrument, and instead have patrons who bequeath them.

International violin soloists are rock stars. They HAVE to sell out concert halls every time they make an appearance. The mystique/sticker shock attached to these antique instruments is part of that. There are few people who could identify a $1M violin against a $50K one blindly, and the number that could are not filling concert halls. It is a brand thing.

The ideas that "you have to have X horn" or "that's a nice vintage horn, it must mean you are a great artist" are sometimes harmless, sometimes not. If you really believe that you are just a steward for the next generation, sworn to maintain an instrument just as it left the factory so that someone else can enjoy it once you are dead, then by all means ignore the worsening pain in your wrist as the terrible ergonomics of the over/under triggers demolish your tendons. Try to form your embouchure just right so that you can play out of the side of your mouth and avoid having the slide widened. Privately celebrate the victory of making a sound at all, while your section mates resent you for playing late because your horn just doesn't want to respond well to you.

The "right" sound is one that is in tune, starts and ends on time, and is comprised of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive. Equipment CAN hold you back in each of these regards, especially some older equipment. Luckily for those who mesh well with the older gear, the deficiencies common to those horns are easily correctable. There is no reason to put up with hardware shortcomings just because that's how somebody thought it should be, five decades ago or more.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:51 am**

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:24 am
Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:04 am
Maybe its more about getting the "right" sound?
Eh. In fact, there are string instruments available (which, by the way, are NOT cheap) from makers that do many things better than Stradivarius instruments. Some even sound like... a louder Stradivarius. I'd guess that soloists using a Stradivarius or a Guarneri or Amati are doing it for the not-insignificant numbers of audience members who listen with their eyes. Many of them don't even own the instrument, and instead have patrons who bequeath them.

International violin soloists are rock stars. They HAVE to sell out concert halls every time they make an appearance. The mystique/sticker shock attached to these antique instruments is part of that. There are few people who could identify a $1M violin against a $50K one blindly, and the number that could are not filling concert halls. It is a brand thing.

The ideas that "you have to have X horn" or "that's a nice vintage horn, it must mean you are a great artist" are sometimes harmless, sometimes not. If you really believe that you are just a steward for the next generation, sworn to maintain an instrument just as it left the factory so that someone else can enjoy it once you are dead, then by all means ignore the worsening pain in your wrist as the terrible ergonomics of the over/under triggers demolish your tendons. Try to form your embouchure just right so that you can play out of the side of your mouth and avoid having the slide widened. Privately celebrate the victory of making a sound at all, while your section mates resent you for playing late because your horn just doesn't want to respond well to you.

The "right" sound is one that is in tune, starts and ends on time, and is comprised of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive. Equipment CAN hold you back in each of these regards, especially some older equipment. Luckily for those who mesh well with the older gear, the deficiencies common to those horns are easily correctable. There is no reason to put up with hardware shortcomings just because that's how somebody thought it should be, five decades ago or more.

Now that's just a rant. Get over yourself. So much stuff in there that is simply nonsense. You don't know if old master violins really make a difference any more than I do but I have at least talked to soloists about their instruments and they believe that the instrument makes a difference. You don't know that narrow slides and old style valve levers are holding young players back, but I teach in our national conservatoire and know what is working for young players and what is not. One modern 'wonderbone' has caused students problems for quite a few years...hard to play, hard to hold and deficient in sound..... but popular nonetheless.
There is no simple progression in trombone manufacture...ask any Williams player.

Chris

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:17 am**

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:24 am
Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:04 am
Maybe its more about getting the "right" sound?
Eh. In fact, there are string instruments available (which, by the way, are NOT cheap) from makers that do many things better than Stradivarius instruments. Some even sound like... a louder Stradivarius. I'd guess that soloists using a Stradivarius or a Guarneri or Amati are doing it for the not-insignificant numbers of audience members who listen with their eyes. Many of them don't even own the instrument, and instead have patrons who bequeath them.

International violin soloists are rock stars. They HAVE to sell out concert halls every time they make an appearance. The mystique/sticker shock attached to these antique instruments is part of that. There are few people who could identify a $1M violin against a $50K one blindly, and the number that could are not filling concert halls. It is a brand thing.

The ideas that "you have to have X horn" or "that's a nice vintage horn, it must mean you are a great artist" are sometimes harmless, sometimes not. If you really believe that you are just a steward for the next generation, sworn to maintain an instrument just as it left the factory so that someone else can enjoy it once you are dead, then by all means ignore the worsening pain in your wrist as the terrible ergonomics of the over/under triggers demolish your tendons. Try to form your embouchure just right so that you can play out of the side of your mouth and avoid having the slide widened. Privately celebrate the victory of making a sound at all, while your section mates resent you for playing late because your horn just doesn't want to respond well to you.

The "right" sound is one that is in tune, starts and ends on time, and is comprised of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive. Equipment CAN hold you back in each of these regards, especially some older equipment. Luckily for those who mesh well with the older gear, the deficiencies common to those horns are easily correctable. There is no reason to put up with hardware shortcomings just because that's how somebody thought it should be, five decades ago or more.

You say : " the right sound is one that is in tune, starts and end on time, and is comprized of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive.."
That begs the question : Have You ever tested (unaltered) vintage equipment used by good players to give a qualified statement about their alleged deficiencies..?

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:17 am**

I think above all it is important to know the difference between opinion and fact. We are are all really talking opinion here. Some opinion is more informed/developed than other opinions but it is still opinion. It would be nice to read posts about opinions and questions about those opinions. It is less helpful to read posts about someone’s opinion being wrong, in my opinion

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:55 am**

GBP wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:17 am I think above all it is important to know the difference between opinion and fact. We are are all really talking opinion here. Some opinion is more informed/developed than other opinions but it is still opinion. It would be nice to read posts about opinions and questions about those opinions. It is less helpful to read posts about someone’s opinion being wrong, in my opinion

Yes opinions.. But also speculations.. Two different things!

Trond

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:57 am**

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:10 pm An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.
2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.
3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.
4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.
5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.
6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.
7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.

If you are familiar with the custom car world, I'd call my 79H a "restomod" - retain as much of the original character but enhance handing and all around performance.

I upgraded the valve on my beloved Conn 79H because the ports on the valve were damaged and leaked. I picked a Rotax valve and asked the tech to minimize the modifications as much as possible. In the end I have a horn that plays better than it did prior to the repairs but retains all the vintage qualities. There were some upgrades in the process due to previous repairs on the horn that needed corrected. I also like the string linkage so the tech adapted the original lever to fit the new valve. Also retained as much of the original lacquer as possible.

I know some of the magic of this 79H is in the slide so do not want to mess with the lead pipe. I have another .522" Conn slide that is the next project. Looks like it will likely get new inners/outers and set up for a removable lead pipe. Needless to say, this project has been a royal pain to the tech as there were previous repairs discovered lurking under the surface.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:13 am**

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:10 pm An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.
2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.
3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.
4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.
5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.
6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.
7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.

Before the shit hit the fan, I did all this except #1 to an old 60H someone had put another valve on (making it inline). The original work on the horn is not of my doing and probably another story, but the work you're talking about - modernizing the valves and putting a D slide on the horn - is necessary to make it work in any sort of contemporary playing situation. (However string linkages are probably ok, too - nothing wrong with those.) There's a 62H George Flynn used to own on consignment at J. Landress brass in NYC which I've played a few times - the valves on that horn have been bored out, and it plays great. This might be something to consider as well.

I've replaced the F valve rotor on my 185 with an Instrument Innovations valve, just because the original valve was totally shot. I probably should have sourced an original Holton valve, but I took a chance. The horn with the new valve plays great, it's very open but provides an amount of resistance I'm comfortable with coming from playing rotor valves. The caveat is that it doesn't play or sound like it used to. Is it worse? I wouldn't say that, but it's not the same. Beware before performing major surgery.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:51 am**

Just chiming in that I've gone the opposite direction. I've had mechanical linkages converted to string. The throw is just unparalleled. Eric Edwards did a wonderful job on one of my horns converting a Bach linkage into a very custom string linkage and I would do it again in a heartbeat. BUT there are other horns they aren't so good on. While I love the Yamaha intermediate/pro series horns and string linkages, their stock implementation of them is not my favorite. Its a little bit noisy and I think the arms are possibly a little too tight. Point being that you might be able to get something done much cheaper (and not need to worry about switching the direction of the rotation or switching out the location of the arms) by having the strings adjusted by a tech rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water. Obviously if you don't care for string linkages that's your preference but not all string linkages are created equal and I suspect you might have less of an issue if you played one that is optimized to remove the elements you don't like about your current implementation.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:52 am**

I hear you Nick. My concern is the routine 'upgrading' of old instruments in very good order. Rescuing down at heel old instruments is a very good endeavour. I have just finished the rebuild of a Conn 60H that the seller admitted was a bit of a dog as it stood... a USA bell section and a converted modern 62H slide. The valve was shot, but I was lucky enough to have a very good original valve to hand... total rebuild and I open wrapped the valve and a pile of bits is now a great trombone that I will use. I even saved a 70H lamp stand with two huge holes in the J bend... Rescue by all means, but pass original horns on to those who will use them and use the profit to buy something modern and easy. That's all I am suggesting.

Chris

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:00 pm**

Trav1s wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:57 am If you are familiar with the custom car world, I'd call my 79H a "restomod" - retain as much of the original character but enhance handing and all around performance.

Trav1s,

I was lucky. The Conn 79H I recently acquired was a true closet queen – had probably been played for only a few months since it was made in 1970 (and then perhaps "touched up" by Osmun Music, who sold it on consignment from the original owner's family). It's just like it came from the factory – slide, valve, and string linkage are quiet and perfect. It looks new and plays like a dream, and can change its character with different mouthpieces. I wouldn't change a thing! Ever!

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:20 pm**

Apart from pulling the leadpipe, I think the OPs list is fine and reasonable.

Chris

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:53 pm**

It's almost as if... It's fine to have work done on vintage instruments...?

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:56 pm**

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:17 am
You say : " the right sound is one that is in tune, starts and end on time, and is comprized of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive.."
That begs the question : Have You ever tested (unaltered) vintage equipment used by good players to give a qualified statement about their alleged deficiencies..?

No, but not because I'm just an impudent youngster. I know plenty of pros (young and old) who use vintage equipment. Guess what? EVERY SINGLE HORN has been modified. Mods range from the relatively minor (changing the actuation direction for the Conn 88H valve, helps eliminate pop apparently) to fully-custom frankenhorns.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:56 pm**

I’ve told this story several times over the years.

I used to have a 1968-ish 62H. It came from LA/S Ferguson with 2 lead pipes, one of which was clearly better than the other. On the good pipe, one could read “Minick” scratched into it.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:58 pm**

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:20 pm Apart from pulling the leadpipe, I think the OPs list is fine and reasonable.

Chris

Yes, all seem reasonable. Although, if the leadpipe has been munched, there are faithful reproductions of vintage pipes that will play far better than a ragged brass remnant.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:16 pm**

Keep the parts.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:03 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:52 pm

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.
[/quote]

I'm missing something. What's strange?

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:08 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:53 pm It's almost as if... It's fine to have work done on vintage instruments...?

work done....

I won't take that bait....

Chris

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:13 pm**

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:03 pm

I'm missing something. What's strange?

As I said earlier to tbarh-

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:15 pm**

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:58 pm
FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:20 pm Apart from pulling the leadpipe, I think the OPs list is fine and reasonable.

Chris
Yes, all seem reasonable. Although, if the leadpipe has been munched, there are faithful reproductions of vintage pipes that will play far better than a ragged brass remnant.

Yes, of course if the pipe is corroded it ruins the instrument, but finding a viable replacement can be time consuming and expensive...I have around 25 pipes, including two 70H pipes and I will still buy interesting pipes just in case. A great pipe in one trombone is rubbish in another.

Chris

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:24 pm**

Vintage strings like Guarneri and Stradivarius in orchestras have all ben worked on, very much actually.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:34 pm**

Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:24 pm Vintage strings like Guarneri and Stradivarius in orchestras have all ben worked on, very much actually.

So have trombones that are 300 years old.

Chris

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:50 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:13 pm
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:03 pm

I'm missing something. What's strange?

As I said earlier to tbarh-

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

I mean is it that strange? We all know the history of Conn in the U.K.

The trombones made in the U.K until Rath is established are all either out of style or garbage. It makes sense that Elkhart Conn instruments are still what's highly regarded and used. I'm sure in another 20-30 years Rath will slowly eclipse the use of the Elkhart Conns and become the instrument associated with the U.K sound but until all the Elkhart Conns fall apart it'll be the Conn that reigns supreme.

Don't forget even certain orchestras and groups in the United States rely on instruments of certain vintage... Chicago Symphony has most (all?) of the players playing on modified Mount Vernons. LA studio scene still has almost everyone playing on vintage Elkhart 62h and 62h style Greenhoes and vintage Conn 8h/88h and Bach 42b styled instruments in the studios. New York has a weird religious following of Holtons with certain cats. Religious following of Minick and Williams instruments in Los Angeles.... and many more!

ooof and don't even get horn players started on the Conn 8D!

Not sure where I was going with that last point but just saying... there are scenes in the U.S where people still go for those vintage horns. I do realize that it doesn't entirely match up with your point of these vintage instruments coming from another country but my point still stands.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:54 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:52 pm We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.

Aidan,

I'm not sure whether you're saying that it's "strange" that they play imported trombones in the U.K. (especially older model U.S. instruments in some cases) or whether it's their trombone sound that's strange? Can you clarify?

Last I heard a couple of London orchestras, their trombone sound was quite full and up to date. Instruments may have even been European (e.g. Courtois or ...), not U.S. I try to listen with my ears, not my eyes. (Unless I'm looking at something strikingly different, such as the Vienna horns with Pumpenvalven!)

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:55 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:13 pm
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:03 pm

I'm missing something. What's strange?

As I said earlier to tbarh-

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

It's not strange it is what it is. Why does someone else's standard have to seem/be strange? If I lived there you bet I'd have a minty Elkhart62H that I knew how to play.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:58 pm**

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:50 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:13 pm

As I said earlier to tbarh-

I mean is it that strange? We all know the history of Conn in the U.K.

The trombones made in the U.K until Rath is established are all either out of style or garbage. It makes sense that Elkhart Conn instruments are still what's highly regarded and used. I'm sure in another 20-30 years Rath will slowly eclipse the use of the Elkhart Conns and become the instrument associated with the U.K sound but until all the Elkhart Conns fall apart it'll be the Conn that reigns supreme.

Don't forget even certain orchestras and groups in the United States rely on instruments of certain vintage... Chicago Symphony has most (all?) of the players playing on modified Mount Vernons. LA studio scene still has almost everyone playing on vintage Elkhart 62h and 62h style Greenhoes and vintage Conn 8h/88h and Bach 42b styled instruments in the studios. New York has a weird religious following of Holtons for certain cats. Religious following of Minick and Williams instruments in Los Angeles.... and many more!

ooof and don't even get horn players started on the Conn 8D!

Not sure where I was going with that last point but just saying... there are scenes in the U.S where people still go for those vintage horns. I do realize that it doesn't entirely match up with your point of these vintage instruments coming from another country but my point still stands.

Agreed. I'm one of those cats who plays Holtons on bass. I'll say that New York has a smorgasbord of instrument makers represented from the latest and greatest to the oldest and greatest!!!

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:58 pm**

Everybody has said what they had to say, everyone knows what everyone else thinks. There's no where for this thread to go but south. How many times do we have to go through this? I think the OP gets that this is a charged issue, and maybe there's more to think about. Time to move on. Really.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:08 pm**

Oof... As I said, I quite like the British trombone sound (which is distinct and great in its own right). I just think it's odd that a whole music scene has gravitated in the last 50 years towards only a small subset of a foreign manufactures' inventory. I can't think of another place that does that to the same degree.

Odd doesn't mean bad, please don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:16 pm**

Much has transpired since I hit quote but I think this still makes sense - have to get back from my lunch break.

Don't forget even certain orchestras and groups in the United States rely on instruments of certain vintage... Chicago Symphony has most (all?) of the players playing on modified Mount Vernons. LA studio scene still has almost everyone playing on vintage Elkhart 62h and 62h and vintage Conn and Bach 42 styled instruments in the studios. New York has a weird religious following of Holtons for certain cats. And many more!

Not sure where I was going with that last point but just saying... there are scenes in the U.S where people still go for those vintage horns.

If anything, wouldn't that demonstrate what Aidan is saying? Those are three rather distinct niches within the same country and they were all produced by that country as well and for sure the amount of people playing Mt. Vernons is much less prevalent than the volume of Elkhart 88Hs in the UK. At least anywhere I've lived. I've probably only encountered... maybe a dozen players on Mt. Vernon ever and I owned two of them (I admittedly did not live in Chicago fwiw). But the US population is like 5x the size of the UK population and spans a tremendously larger geographic area. So to someone in the US, it would seem odd to have such a homogenous domination of a decades out-of-production instrument from a non-domestic entity just because of how difficult it would be for any product here to have such market dominance for something that is actively being marketed.

I'm not familiar of any dataset that would indicate something like this with any degree of certainty or reliability. But I noticed when I visited Ireland a few years ago a similar fervor for Elkhart 88s; in fact, I sat in with a big band there at a local pub in Dublin that had 4 Elkhart 88hs memory serving. (Then, of course, other big bands where more conventional commercial equipment were used, though still predominantly Conns like the Conn 6H which I seldom see in the US). I wonder how prevalent it is worldwide to have marketing or other forces that have led to a similar makeup. US & UK are the most strongly represented here with very much everything else falling off the proverbial cliff in terms of numbers but anecdotally it would be interesting to hear if the US is the weird one in this regard or if the UK is anomalous. The only thing that I can kind of think of is that I know Yamaha are pretty popular in Japan, unsurprisingly, but I think its reasonable to assume that decent quality, domestic instruments will always be at least marginally popular.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:25 pm**

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:56 pm
Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:17 am
You say : " the right sound is one that is in tune, starts and end on time, and is comprized of a tone that is at the very least inoffensive.."
That begs the question : Have You ever tested (unaltered) vintage equipment used by good players to give a qualified statement about their alleged deficiencies..?
No, but not because I'm just an impudent youngster. I know plenty of pros (young and old) who use vintage equipment. Guess what? EVERY SINGLE HORN has been modified. Mods range from the relatively minor (changing the actuation direction for the Conn 88H valve, helps eliminate pop apparently) to fully-custom frankenhorns.

Where I live(in Norway), and the other nordic countries and Britain, there are a lot of unaltered Conn 88H, 62H and Holtons used by professionals.. Pampered, serviced and loved, yes... But unaltered... Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:29 pm**

Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:16 pm If anything, wouldn't that demonstrate what Aidan is saying? Those are three rather distinct niches within the same country and they were all produced by that country as well and for sure the amount of people playing Mt. Vernons is much less prevalent than the volume of Elkhart 88Hs in the UK. At least anywhere I've lived. I've probably only encountered... maybe a dozen players on Mt. Vernon ever and I owned two of them (I admittedly did not live in Chicago fwiw). But the US population is like 5x the size of the UK population and spans a tremendously larger geographic area. So to someone in the US, it would seem odd to have such a homogenous domination of a decades out-of-production instrument from a non-domestic entity just because of how difficult it would be for any product here to have such market dominance for something that is actively being marketed.

Heh I thought the same thing after I posted it which is why I added that little blurb at the bottom of my post

Maybe a better comparison would have been the prevalent use of German instruments in the United States at the turn of the 20th century. It took 20-30+ years for American trombones to finally take over the use of German instruments in American orchestras. Even then many of the great orchestral trombone designs of the 20s, 30s and 40s were directly based on existing German instruments or made directly in a German-style. It wouldn't be until the 50's and 60's that American orchestral trombones really became their own thing.

Like I said in my other post I'm sure at some point Rath and other manufacturers will take over the Elkhart Conn but it doesn't seem far stretched at all to me as to why they're still being used in the U.K.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:01 pm**

Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:25 pm Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?

I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff
- Ergonomics do not work for some people
- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe
- There aren't actually that many of them
- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:26 pm**

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:01 pm
Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:25 pm Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?
I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff
- Ergonomics do not work for some people
- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe
- There aren't actually that many of them
- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.

My 1972 Conn 88H has perfectly decent response throughout its range, especially with the right mouthpiece. I am quite comfortable with its ergonomics. And I am very happy playing a Conn 88HCL (also now outdated, I guess), which has a wonderful valve.

I take meticulous care of these trombones, so they are in great shape.

Yes, I'm an old-timer, but I played professionally in orchestras decades ago. All the trumpets then were Bach Stradivarius. Nobody told me then that I didn't "blend well." (I suppose they were being polite.) I still got paid though. And a few solo bows at the end of some concerts. Guess I couldn't cut it these days.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:31 pm**

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:01 pm
Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:25 pm Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?
I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff
- Ergonomics do not work for some people
- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe
- There aren't actually that many of them
- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.

Your thoughts. Others vary. Like mine. Mine has very good response below the staff. Ergonomics are okay for me. Mouthpiece options severely limited? Maybe unless the receiver is so work anything will fit. Mine's in great shape-have had it since 7th grade. The blend also has a lot to do with the player.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:50 pm**

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:29 pm
Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:16 pm If anything, wouldn't that demonstrate what Aidan is saying? Those are three rather distinct niches within the same country and they were all produced by that country as well and for sure the amount of people playing Mt. Vernons is much less prevalent than the volume of Elkhart 88Hs in the UK. At least anywhere I've lived. I've probably only encountered... maybe a dozen players on Mt. Vernon ever and I owned two of them (I admittedly did not live in Chicago fwiw). But the US population is like 5x the size of the UK population and spans a tremendously larger geographic area. So to someone in the US, it would seem odd to have such a homogenous domination of a decades out-of-production instrument from a non-domestic entity just because of how difficult it would be for any product here to have such market dominance for something that is actively being marketed.
Heh I thought the same thing after I posted it which is why I added that little blurb at the bottom of my post

Maybe a better comparison would have been the prevalent use of German instruments in the United States at the turn of the 20th century. It took 20-30+ years for American trombones to finally take over the use of German instruments in American orchestras. Even then many of the great orchestral trombone designs of the 20s, 30s and 40s were directly based on existing German instruments or made directly in a German-style. It wouldn't be until the 50's and 60's that American orchestral trombones really became their own thing.

Like I said in my other post I'm sure at some point Rath and other manufacturers will take over the Elkhart Conn but it doesn't seem far stretched at all to me as to why they're still being used in the U.K.

Haha yeah I know the feeling! Your example of the German instruments in the former half of the 20th century is a great example. Actually, ironically favoring a non-domestic entity over what would be contemporary Conns in the time period. What's interesting to me is, with how prevalent targeted marketing is, outreach from large scale companies like Yamaha, etc. don't seem to have made a tremendous dent in the market.

Was Bousfield using the Yamaha while he was in the LSO? Quite different from an 88... or at least the one I played was. Interesting that that it didn't seem to influence things away from the 88 style looking at his tenure with hindsight if he did.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:14 pm**

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:29 pm
Matt K wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:16 pm If anything, wouldn't that demonstrate what Aidan is saying? Those are three rather distinct niches within the same country and they were all produced by that country as well and for sure the amount of people playing Mt. Vernons is much less prevalent than the volume of Elkhart 88Hs in the UK. At least anywhere I've lived. I've probably only encountered... maybe a dozen players on Mt. Vernon ever and I owned two of them (I admittedly did not live in Chicago fwiw). But the US population is like 5x the size of the UK population and spans a tremendously larger geographic area. So to someone in the US, it would seem odd to have such a homogenous domination of a decades out-of-production instrument from a non-domestic entity just because of how difficult it would be for any product here to have such market dominance for something that is actively being marketed.
Heh I thought the same thing after I posted it which is why I added that little blurb at the bottom of my post

Maybe a better comparison would have been the prevalent use of German instruments in the United States at the turn of the 20th century. It took 20-30+ years for American trombones to finally take over the use of German instruments in American orchestras. Even then many of the great orchestral trombone designs of the 20s, 30s and 40s were directly based on existing German instruments or made directly in a German-style. It wouldn't be until the 50's and 60's that American orchestral trombones really became their own thing.

Like I said in my other post I'm sure at some point Rath and other manufacturers will take over the Elkhart Conn but it doesn't seem far stretched at all to me as to why they're still being used in the U.K.

Aha! Well thought out comments. I do feel like this period has gone on a bit longer than the US one you mention, especially with the availability of instruments these days.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:54 am**

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:01 pm
Tbarh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:25 pm Why alter a good Conn 88H anyway?
I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff
- Ergonomics do not work for some people
- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe
- There aren't actually that many of them
- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.

Wow, i totally disagree with everything You write!!
In addition : - the wide open leadpipe You talk about are a really Great asset... Means that You can shape the sound without having the "horn play You"..
-"bad response below the Staff", really?
- "do not blend with Bach trumpets", For real???

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:54 am**

Tbarh wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:54 am
paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:01 pm

I have covered this. I will spell it out more clearly:

- Most have a bad response below the staff
- Ergonomics do not work for some people
- Mouthpiece options are severely limited due to the wide open leadpipe
- There aren't actually that many of them
- Lots are in pretty poor shape

They also do not blend well with Bach trumpets. They just don't.
Wow, i totally disagree with everything You write!!
In addition : - the wide open leadpipe You talk about are a really Great asset... Means that You can shape the sound without having the "horn play You"..
-"bad response below the Staff", really?
- "do not blend with Bach trumpets", For real???

Tbarh I completely agree with you!

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:04 am**

It's really going to depend on the individual and instrument in question. While I fall more into the "trombone is a tool not a trophy" camp, there is value to leaving some vintage horns alone. I have an amazing 8H bell section from the 60s (based on the engraving; the original slide and therefore the serial # are gone). It's in near mint shape visually and plays great. I'd play it every day except that some of the things I play and some of the situations I play in necessitate a valve. I'm sure I could find a great tech to add a valve to it, but that would involve burning original lacquer, probably cutting up the neckpipe (or using a new one with the valve) and it would alter the horn in ways I'm not comfortable doing. It's just too nice a player and looker as it is to gamble on whether I'd be happy with it afterward.

Another option would be to try the older German solution and what Yamaha and others have used on altos with valves.

Get a new tuning slide and have a valve section built as part of the tuning slide, so the bell section is untouched and the valve section comes off with the tuning slide. But that's ergonomically weird is some cases...

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:46 am**

ChadA wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:04 am It's really going to depend on the individual and instrument in question. While I fall more into the "trombone is a tool not a trophy" camp, there is value to leaving some vintage horns alone. I have an amazing 8H bell section from the 60s (based on the engraving; the original slide and therefore the serial # are gone). It's in near mint shape visually and plays great. I'd play it every day except that some of the things I play and some of the situations I play in necessitate a valve. I'm sure I could find a great tech to add a valve to it, but that would involve burning original lacquer, probably cutting up the neckpipe (or using a new one with the valve) and it would alter the horn in ways I'm not comfortable doing. It's just too nice a player and looker as it is to gamble on whether I'd be happy with it afterward.

Another option would be to try the older German solution and what Yamaha and others have used on altos with valves. Get a new tuning slide and have a valve section built as part of the tuning slide, so the bell section is untouched and the valve section comes off with the tuning slide. But that's ergonomically weird is some cases...

Your first sentence nails it. It does depend on the person and the instrument. And that's why I don't like absolutes coming from players about what an instrument can or cannot do.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:16 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:08 pm Oof... As I said, I quite like the British trombone sound (which is distinct and great in its own right). I just think it's odd that a whole music scene has gravitated in the last 50 years towards only a small subset of a foreign manufactures' inventory. I can't think of another place that does that to the same degree.

I think we cannot emphasize enough the influence Denis Wick has had on the British trombone community, or even the British brass-playing community. After he smuggled in a few Conns post-WWII, the British trombone and brass scene changed. Period.

Another historical example: in the late Renaissance-early Baroque, most of the trombones and trumpets in Italy were manufactured by a few workshops in Germany. Yes, there were Italian makers, but there are few extant Italian instruments from that period, and (if remember Stewart Carter’s book correctly), they were of inferior quality.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:30 pm**

Denis later played a 42. That didn't seem to influence as much!

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:36 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:30 pm Denis later played a 42. That didn't seem to influence as much!

Denis switched to Bach 42 in 1978 as he said conn standards had dropped Abilene indeed.... A few people switched to the 42 but conn where so established, and Bach with the exception of Bill Watrous and the 16m have never promoted their trombones very much here in the UK

Sadly until Mick Rath,trombones made here never reached the conn Elkhart standard, although In the early 1990's Denis worked with Gary Greenhoe to develop a proto type for boosey and stupidly bosses decided not to go with it

On the commercial side Don Lusher played King 2b so that explains why vintage 2b's are still popular too

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:24 pm**

Sort of like Michael Jordan and Nike, I suppose.

Follow the celebrity's lead. Be like Mike.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:02 pm**

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:16 pm Another historical example: in the late Renaissance-early Baroque, most of the trombones and trumpets in Italy were manufactured by a few workshops in Germany. Yes, there were Italian makers, but there are few extant Italian instruments from that period, and (if remember Stewart Carter’s book correctly), they were of inferior quality.

There are so few surviving instruments at all from this period that it is impossible to make any such generalization. Certainly instruments from Nuremberg were popular and held in the highest regards, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Italian instruments were necessarily inferior or unpopular. You can count the number of surviving pre-1600 trombones on two hands, and there are two Italian instruments among the 5 oldest surviving trombones. One is a very, very good Venetian instrument, the other has a superb tone and great overtones tuning in its current form, but the original bell flare is missing and replaced with a modern reconstruction and the inner slide is likely 17th century but not original to the instrument (later replacement for a broken slide, probably), so it's hard to say if the horn was as good (or better) originally. It is however a very fancy instrument with very extensive decorations and the biggest collection of extension crooks I know of, so certainly at the time it would have been very expensive and a very high end instrument.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:05 pm**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:24 pm Sort of like Michael Jordan and Nike, I suppose.

Follow the celebrity's lead. Be like Mike.

Not really , the conn's were so superior to anything being produced here, a larger bore and better than anything you could buy, and remember there had been a ban on import of American instruments so most where still playing pea shooters, and all of a sudden there are these trombones with great slides and well made it was a no brainier to think that they would not very quickly become very popular

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:52 pm**

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:05 pmNot really , the conn's were so superior to anything being produced here, a larger bore and better than anything you could buy, and remember there had been a ban on import of American instruments so most where still playing pea shooters, and all of a sudden there are these trombones with great slides and well made it was a no brainier to think that they would not very quickly become very popular

The same thing seems to have happened in reverse with euphoniums. Not much call for an American-style euphonium these days outside some college marching bands that use them.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:22 pm**

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:16 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:08 pm Oof... As I said, I quite like the British trombone sound (which is distinct and great in its own right). I just think it's odd that a whole music scene has gravitated in the last 50 years towards only a small subset of a foreign manufactures' inventory. I can't think of another place that does that to the same degree.
I think we cannot emphasize enough the influence Denis Wick has had on the British trombone community, or even the British brass-playing community. After he smuggled in a few Conns post-WWII, the British trombone and brass scene changed. Period.

My understanding is that the breakthrough was when the NY Phil visited shortly after the war. Wick then amplified the effect by bringing in many instruments over the years for, ahem, personal use. I suspect that there's growing variety now with all the new makers (I've seen a few Courtois amongst the college kids), and I believe the LSO section has gone over to Yamaha.

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