mouthpiece buzzing Yes or No

[imsevimse]

Freebuzzing does need more lip power than mpc buzzing. Mpc buzzing does need more lip power than playing the horn. When connect the buzz with playing with the horn you do dadept to the horn. All of it can be done with good airflow, and bad airflow, and to much lip compression. So it can be good or bad.
Lot of pro players buzz, lots of pro player don´t buzz. If you don´t know what to do, why not just test to buzz, or not to buzz if you are a buzzer? In the end it is up to you to decide.

I agree. Use it if it helps, but most important is letting the ears guide you to a good sound. Then you need the whole system to be there, lips, mouthpiece, instrument and ears. I can freebuzz and mouthpiece buzz but I do not practice these skills much. I have recently found other things help my emboushure, odd things like playing a french horn mouthpiece and the Wycliffe Gordon crossover mouthpiece. Strange things like that can help more than years of practice on the same same. To me the variation and different approaches helps. I got a better register on trombone and better sound up there on trombone. I did not expect it to happen. I just wanted to do something else during pandemic. I also got better on french horn.

/Tom

[baileyman]

This is what I used to think. But now I find I can buzz a note with the tongue in an "ee" position, then gliss the tongue to an "ah", and the pitch will follow down with what feels to me like no change in lips. And reverse.

Then I find I can gliss the tongue in the same way, but maintain the pitch. I call this a "stationary gliss". In this case I feel a pretty powerful lip contraction counteracting the tongue movement.

I find this phenomenon endlessly fascinating. It makes for many exercise variations.

And, you can tongue gliss in one direction and lip gliss in the other, and maintain a steady tone.

(just like you can slide vibrato and exactly cancel it with lip vibrato. I don't know of any reason you'd want to but it seems perfectly possible.)

Seriously, what range is your tongue gliss workable in, or easy in?

Exactly. That's the "stationary gliss". I suppose that powerful contraction is a "lip gliss". (And Urbie used to do a combined vibrato, but not to cancel, rather to work in different warble frequencies. Nuts.)

I started out doing octave tongue movements, but then i thought that's a bit much, so lately I have been doing fourths. I warm up with a buzz "ee", fourthwise down to "ah", then back to "ee", then a stationary gliss. Then down a half step, etc, then up a half step till it doesn't work any more.

A favorite exercise right now is to buzz a middle note in "ee", get on the horn, tongue gliss down a fourth to "ah", stationary gliss to "ee", then down a fourth and repeat to the bottom of the horn. Then I repeat up a half step until the top of the horn.

And I have been working my flexies with different vowels. So, a 3 4 partial trill with metronome in quarters going slowly "ee" to "ah" or reverse, 3 to 4 or 4 to 3, then quarter triplets, eighths, triplets, sixteenths, however far the tempo of the day will allow, down a position and reverse everything, down a position reverse again, etc. It's interesting how the different vowels behave. I had thought a good trill needed "ee" but they all work, just a little differently.

Basically I'm trying to develop an independence between "ee-ah" tongue tuning and chop tension tuning, the way pianists work for hand and finger independence. It just seems like it should be useful. And I'm trying to get my high buzz into the piece and then down the horn, which is a challenge.

The range answer is it works everywhere until the buzz quits. I have never been able to get a decent double pedal A (on what I call zero partial), but if I'm on the .5 partial C for instance in "ee" I will do the fourthwise tongue motion aiming for double pedal G, and something happens, but it's not really a note. The vibration feels about right, though. Higher up the fourthwise motion feels smaller. And early on it was like magic to buzz a fairly high note, tongue gliss down, and then tongue gliss BACK UP WITHOUT EFFORT! Holy cow!

[VJOFan]

Tagging on a pet peeve of these discussions: weight lifting (used as a buzzing analogy by both the pro and con camps), for a large number of those who do it, is not about hypertrophy (bulking up). It is about improving neuromuscular coordination and so really about gaining better control over the body. Strengthening happens but without significant added bulk. If buzzing has anything to do with weightlifting, it is likely the improvement of coordinated motion facilitated by trained muscles.

So it makes sense that not everyone needs that kind of training or that there is more than one way to attain the same result: stimulus => response. You find the stimulus that creates the desired response for you.

[Kbiggs]

Perhaps there are benefits to achieve from freebuzzing and mouthpiece buzzing that are (a) difficult to achieve when playing the instrument alone, and (b) outweigh any perceived disadvantages.

[baileyman]

Tagging on a pet peeve of these discussions: weight lifting (used as a buzzing analogy by both the pro and con camps), for a large number of those who do it, is not about hypertrophy (bulking up). It is about improving neuromuscular coordination and so really about gaining better control over the body. ...

Your idea seems exactly right to me. It's mostly to achieve control. Perhaps it is more like learning to clean a small dumbell while standing on one foot.

Perhaps there are benefits to achieve from freebuzzing and mouthpiece buzzing that are (a) difficult to achieve when playing the instrument alone, and (b) outweigh any perceived disadvantages.

I think so. One clear example for me, maybe not others, though, is that there has always been a range starting about 5th or 6th partial where the chops want to begin to bunch in for higher notes. That's okay for a few partials, but eventually friction with the rim makes further bunching impossible. Reducing pressure and almost lifting off allows the bunch to continue. And freebuzz presents no obstacle at all. Negotiating this range in freebuzz informs the chops with a new feel that may apply with the piece. That's the idea anyway.

[harrisonreed]

Another "no" from one of the greatest brass musicians who has ever lived. Great video about dealing with the aftermath of too much tension, ie focal dystonia. Around 3:45, Phil Smith gets into it.

[FOSSIL]

I had a discussion with Philip, but didn't push it....he was not comfortable when I demonstrated buzzing free and bringing the trombone to the lips with an unbroken sound and removing it, again without a break in sound. That doesn't chime with his view. As I say, I didn't push it and let the subject go....there were dozens of people there and it was not the place or time. Philip is one of kindest, most humble, honest and inspiring people on the planet, and I would hate to offend him.
To be honest, I couldn't care less if people freebuzz or don't freebuzz.... life's too short and I have more important things on my agenda.

Chris

[SimmonsTrombone]

We know there are people with fast twitch muscles, and others with slow twitch. Could this muscle difference apply to embouchures and effect the success or failure of buzzing?

[Kbiggs]

We know there are people with fast twitch muscles, and others with slow twitch. Could this muscle difference apply to embouchures and effect the success or failure of buzzing?

I remember that 25-30 years ago, the idea of “fast vs. slow twitch” muscles was discussed A LOT regarding sports, esp. running and track and field. Biopsies of leg muscles seemed to indicate a difference in muscular contraction when stimulated electrically with the same frequency. The conclusion at the time was that people with “slow twitch” muscles were probably better at long, slow distances vs. people with “fast twitch” muscles who were probably better at shorter distances, e.g., sprints, such as nothing greater than, say, 500 km.

However, I believe—it’s been 25-30 years—that nothing really came of it. Not many athletes were willing to undergo a biopsy to analyze their muscle tissue for the sake of a theory. I’m not aware of any studies to show that there really was a difference in performance of fast vs. slow twitch muscles. I don’t think they found any differences in fast vs. slow twitch muscles anywhere in the body other in than the large muscle groups like the legs and arms, and especially in the face.

At any rate, what difference would it make? If we were to find that one professional trumpet player had slow twitch muscles while a professional tuba player had fast twitch muscles, wouldn’t that make this a difference without a distinction?

[harrisonreed]

We know there are people with fast twitch muscles, and others with slow twitch. Could this muscle difference apply to embouchures and effect the success or failure of buzzing?

Do you think fast/slow twitch muscle development would make you better at fine motor control? Brass playing embouchure control is more akin to holding chopsticks than explosive power off the blocks or endurance running through a marathon.

It's literally all in our heads (and the nervous system connections).

[harrisonreed]

I had a discussion with Philip, but didn't push it....he was not comfortable when I demonstrated buzzing free and bringing the trombone to the lips with an unbroken sound and removing it, again without a break in sound. That doesn't chime with his view. As I say, I didn't push it and let the subject go....there were dozens of people there and it was not the place or time. Philip is one of kindest, most humble, honest and inspiring people on the planet, and I would hate to offend him.
To be honest, I couldn't care less if people freebuzz or don't freebuzz.... life's too short and I have more important things on my agenda.

Chris

He seems like a very kindhearted person, and there is no denying his sound on his C trumpet. My god.

BTW, Chris, were you able to ask Ian about his thoughts? Last I heard he still advised his students to buzz for certain things but he seems on the fence about it in his writing.

Obviously, no one is going to change their opinion completely based on this discussion, but I think it's interesting. Ian is another musician whose playing and teaching I deeply respect, and his ideas are often curve balls that fascinate me. For example, forming the embouchure completely separate from the mouthpiece placement ("give me any mouthpiece and I can play it") and playing dry on the face ("this is why I never have a mark on my lips or get chapped lips"). It's all interesting.

[FOSSIL]

I had a discussion with Philip, but didn't push it....he was not comfortable when I demonstrated buzzing free and bringing the trombone to the lips with an unbroken sound and removing it, again without a break in sound. That doesn't chime with his view. As I say, I didn't push it and let the subject go....there were dozens of people there and it was not the place or time. Philip is one of kindest, most humble, honest and inspiring people on the planet, and I would hate to offend him.
To be honest, I couldn't care less if people freebuzz or don't freebuzz.... life's too short and I have more important things on my agenda.

Chris

He seems like a very kindhearted person, and there is no denying his sound on his C trumpet. My god.

BTW, Chris, were you able to ask Ian about his thoughts? Last I heard he still advised his students to buzz for certain things but he seems on the fence about it in his writing.

Obviously, no one is going to change their opinion completely based on this discussion, but I think it's interesting. Ian is another musician whose playing and teaching I deeply respect, and his ideas are often curve balls that fascinate me. For example, forming the embouchure completely separate from the mouthpiece placement ("give me any mouthpiece and I can play it") and playing dry on the face ("this is why I never have a mark on my lips or get chapped lips"). It's all interesting.

Never discussed it with Ian...to be honest, when we meet, conversation is mostly social and talking about students.

Chris

[VJOFan]

We know there are people with fast twitch muscles, and others with slow twitch. Could this muscle difference apply to embouchures and effect the success or failure of buzzing?

I've become a running nerd in the last few years so have read a lot on this topic.

The two types of fibers are in every person. It does seem some people have a bit more of one type than another. Because the fiber types are not immutable (they can adapt to be more like each other with training) it is unclear whether the fact that most sprinters have more fast twitch fibers and most distance runners have more slow twitch fibers is a predetermination of aptitude or is a result of training.

In terms of embouchure the known facts about muscle fiber types suggest this to me. Slow twitch fibers are better at enduring repetitive contractions and ongoing contractions. So a make up of predominantly slow twitch fibers may lead to more endurance. However, the fast twitch fibers of the embouchure would be recruited during taxing playing and would adapt to behave more like slow twitch over time.

So I'm saying, it probably doesn't matter at all.

[Doug Elliott]

That's pretty much my understanding and how I look at it. However, playing, especially when it comes to endurance, is really more of an isometric exercise (as you say ongoing contractions), not repetitive contractions.

"Strength" comes in two forms, largely due to the two different fiber types. As you say, partly aptitude and partly training. We have to practice both ways.

[Basbasun]

Delited

[JakeRoberts69]

[imsevimse]

A lot of testaments there of mouthpiece buzzing. Very interesting video. Thanks!

/Tom

[Bach5G]

I started buzzing in uni when my teacher, a Chicago-school guy, recommended it. Years later, at an info-masterclass, Ian Bousfield supported it. I recall thinking that buzzing seemed to be something that should be easy to do and I was not able to do it very well. I started buzzing, especially during my commute, and I think it was useful. Now, 25 years later, I tend to buzz for a few minutes as part of my warmup. Sort of like light stretching before a run (probably a good analogy, given there is controversy about the efficacy of stretching before running). If it works for you, go for it.

[Basbasun]

"If it works for you, go for it."
Yes. And if it doesn´t let it be.

From now and on I will play on my mpc ov the bass trombone for a couple of minutes, I will do that for a month. Then I have something to evaluete. I will be back on this thread latter.

[Basbasun]

There are some references to the lenght of pipes and acoustics. Here is a good site if you are interseted in the stuff.
I am still because of experiments, lesson and reading for many years. There are much more info on the neet for some who are interested. This does not have much to do with the buzzing issue though, and since most of you are not interseted in the acoustic of wind instrument, you shoudl not feel obliged to study that.
https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassa ... html#bells

To free buzz you do need more resistance than mpc buzzing, mpc buzz need more resistance than horn blowing. That I believe we are all agred on? Do we use different muscles doing those three buzzings? I do not believe so, the resistance can be adjusted so easily that many players do not even notice, many do notice the differenc and some shy away from buzzing, others take advantage of the difference. If you compress the lips more the more resistance you get, if you blow harder the more resistance you get. I believe many fine players can do adjust to the different resistance very good.

I think that if you are not sure about the way you do, buzz or not buzz, try for some time, a month maybe, to do the opposite, Does it thing go better or worse? There you are.

[AndrewG]

High intensity interval training is different than running a marathon. Plyometric jump squats are different than an olympic snatch. Romanian deadlifts are different than conventional deadlifts. Athletes crosstrain all the time, and are made better by it.

I don't see how mouthpiece buzzing is any different. Mouthpiece buzzing made me stronger, gave me a clearer sound, and better overall control. It works for me. If you've given it a chance and it didn't help, don't do it . If you haven't, maybe give it a shot. It's unlikely to hurt anything.

[OneInTuneGuy]

I wonder if anyone has ever heard of Charlie Vernon, Ed Kleinhammer, Frank Crisafulli, or Arnold Jacobs? All of my teachers buzzed on their mouthpieces. But I think that the phrase 'buzzing on the mouthpiece' is a bit of a misnomer. In my opinion, attempting to buzz or cause the mouthpiece to vibrate is misdirection of effort. Soft muscle tissue buzzing against a metal rim is a losing proposition, although buzzing inside the ring will produce an easy buzz and be quite stress and tension free. Charlie Vernon (as I learned from one of his proteges) sought the best sound in the world, and he handily has one of the finest sounds there is. Charlie buzzes minimum 30 minutes a day before he even touches the horn. Yet, there are other great players like Christian Lindberg who do not advocate mouthpiece buzzing? People can sound great whether they buzz or not. To me, the point is: if it works for you - do it. But highly important to buzz correctly, and to focus not on the buzz, but the finest sound imaginable in your mind. There need be no push or pull here on the subject. I've played in some very fine orchestras, taught 42 years, and have sent an unbroken string of students to Indiana U. since 1996. All of my students buzzed - but even so, it is a personal decision, and I respect anyone who chooses not to. It's simply a choice, and whether one does or not, I respect whatever works for the individual.

[musicofnote]

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[Clovenhoof81]

I'm a beginner and through the day I will casually pick up my horn and practice with the slide locked I have read that the 4th partial is fourteen cents flat and the 6th partial thirty-one cents flat. Is this a bad habit?

[BGuttman]

Different trombones will have different pitch tendencies for the partials. A different brand instrument may be off in different directions.

Practicing only in 1st position? Could be OK. Depends on what you are trying to do. If you are trying to blend with other instruments or drones, playing with the slide locked may make it difficult to tune the interval between what you are playing and the drone. Just want to do flexibilities and long tones? Fine. Probably not too many melodies that you can play only in 1st position, though. And certainly no scales.

[StephenBrown]

I try to buzz a little every day, but I notice if I go too long or try to perfect my buzz it become detrimental to the exercise and I do more harm than good.

[Clovenhoof81]

Judging from the mixed consensus from varying skill levels; I have been doing mpc. warm ups for about 90 seconds when I first wake up. Long tone sirens, glissando, and staccato.

[ssking2b]

None of my teachers advocated mouthpiece buzzing other than momentarily to warm up. To a man they all believe it left you with bad habits, since it was not relevant to the way we produce and use air stream when we play.

My teachers were Bernie Schneider (St Louis Symphony), Tom Streeter (Airmen of Note), Louis Van Haney (NY Philharmonic), and Buddy Baker (Stan Kenton).

[Kbiggs]

So much of this discussion is personal and subjective. In another thread somewhere, someone bemoaned that a lot of ideas here proposed here are been met with “Well, we don’t have the data because no one has done a study.” True, but not helpful. Playing and teaching are arts, not sciences. And results are not always subject to scientific scrutiny.

Some teachers are adamant one way or the other about mouthpiece and free-buzzing. I don’t believe that teaching and playing are black-or-white endeavours. Students are learning, and may not know what works for them, especially beginners (who often are enticed by “I saw this thing on the internet…”). More advanced students, and adult accomplished players, often have ideas and habits they’ve reinforced over time, some of which be unhelpful. A skilled, non-judgmental teacher who is willing to work with the student rather than simply say, “Do this!” can help the student recognize bad habits and replace them with helpful habits.

If the teacher is willing to admit fallibility, then suggesting an experiment can help for that student. Even saying, “This worked for me, let’s try it on you” can help motivate students. If that doesn’t work, then go to plan B.

Having said all that, I do mouthpiece and free-buzzing. Doug Elliott got me started on free-buzzing, so I’m starting to do more of it. I’ve used mouthpiece buzzing a lot in the past, and had some extended periods when that was my primary source of practice and keeping in shape, usually in the car with a BERP, or a ShortCut (Jo-Ral?) adapted with a large shank leadpipe. I still buzz a bit before I practice, both free-buzzing and with the mouthpiece. It works—for me.

[hveene]

Personally I don't like buzzing at all. The band I play with uses it often to get the breathing going, and I understand that. But for me the pressure from playing the instrument is too much different from just the mouthpiece. It makes me feel uncomfortable. So bsically I refuse to use buzzing. I do use it for about 10 seconds to get the mouthpiece warm and get enough blood and oxygen in the lips. But actaully playing exercises just on the mouthpiee. That makes me sound and play very dull.

[Bach5G]

A bit first thing, free and/or mpc, to get blood flowing or relieve tightness. Just a few minutes though. Occasionally on the way to a gig/rehearsal. Maybe a bit of freebuzzing when walking the dog. I also noted DE’s recent comment about forming an embouchure and blowing but not buzzing.

Can’t see the point of working out difficult passages on the
mouthpiece or doing extensive mouthpiece calisthenics.

[Olofson]

Yes if you get benefitsfrom it. No if you does not.

[chouston3]

This is the juiciest current topic on the forum apart from the beans right now.
I have had a mixed experience with buzzing. Sometimes I feel like it helps. Often, I really do not feel like it does much of anything.
I suspect the great players who swear by it are doing something that I am not. I suspect that I buzz one way and play a different way. If I could buzz with the same mechanics that I play, I think it would work better for me.

[tbdana]

I confess, I'm a buzzer.

I do a little lip stretching and free buzzing to start. I do mouthpiece buzzing in my car on the way to rehearsals/gigs, and I'll buzz for 1 minute or less as part of my warmup.

Jeff Reynolds gave me a tube with a partial stopper in it that fits onto my mouthpiece shank and supposedly simulates the back pressure of playing, and I have a mouthpiece in my car with that contraption attached, and I'll buzz on it as I drive. Often just warmup stuff, but sometimes I'll buzz along with music I'm listening to.

I'm a buzzer, but it's just for getting the chops going when cold and to fend off boredom in my (self-driving, so I'm not a danger) car.

[heldenbone]

Jeff Reynolds advocates using 6 or 8 inches of large aquarium hose on the mouthpiece, not enough to impose harmonics, with a choke or constriction in the far end to mimic the impedance the instrument would add. He described this as the first part of his warm-up while driving to a rehearsal or performance.

https://cherryclassics.com/products/2556

BUZZING WITH MOUTHPIECE (AND TUBE EXTENSION)
Trumpet players need not use a tube extension, as their bore size is small enough to
cause sufficient backpressure. For horn, trombone, euphonium and tuba players, it’s best
to fit your mouthpiece with a plastic hose, maybe with a reducer hose inside, to create a
smaller bore size than your mouthpiece bore. Horn players can use a 5/16 inch or 3/8
inch plastic hose about 3 inches long. Trombonists can use ½” or 7/16 inch hose with a
reducer inside, about 4 inches long, to make the bore at some point smaller than the bore
on your mouthpiece. With tubes, shorter is better. Why? Longer tubes create their own
overtone series, which you must muscle around. With this new fixture, buzz some music.
What music? I recommend music of any kind that is medium to low register for your
instrument, mostly slurred, always pianissimo up to only mezzo piano and not more than
three minutes at a time. For decades I “buzzed” with the tube in the car on the way to
Philharmonic rehearsals. The idea is make your buzzing more focused and tone hotter,
by increasing the vibrating potential of your embouchure. What happens if you buzz
loudly? Your tone gets stiff and coarse, with a brackish quality. What happens if you
don’t use a tube extension at all? Your embouchure tends to sphincter towards the center
of your aperture to find support against the lack of backpressure on the air column. You
wind up with muscle bound chops that are difficult to move easily or supply any kind of
acceptable tone.

[tbdana]

Yup, that's exactly the contraption he gave me.

[Bach5G]

Yup, that's exactly the contraption he gave me.

There was a difference of opinion between JR and Sauer, the latter recommending 9” of PVC irrigation pipe with a hole drilled in one side about one third along the length of pipe. Kind of an octave key. Didn’t Sauer call his device a Focused Air Resistance Trainer? FART for short. Too much time on their hands counting bars rest.