TromboneChat

Posted: **Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 pm**

Say what you want to about Sam, I always enjoyed his posts on the Trombone Forum because they were thought-provoking and contained information I found interesting and often useful. I place value on the opinions of someone who is versatile and accomplished, sometimes just for giving me a window into how they think about what they do. If some people don't think outside the box the norm can become very stale; like a gene pool without the benefit of random mutation and genetic diversity. Free speech serves a like function in society. If we don't agree with somebody that doesn't make it our job to denounce them, even if that is in vogue on the internet these days. That practice smacks a bit too much of Maoist China and the French Revolution. Should we not show a little charity to other trombone players? Some say if you can't think of something nice to say about someone you should just say "bless their heart" or say nothing. That may be a stretch for some. Of course it's okay to disagree with someone in a discussion; but not to talk about them disrespectfully in their absence. IMO. If you don't agree with something you don't have to implement it. Listen to anything you care to and use or retain what makes sense. That is the purpose of a personal BS meter, IMHO.

Posted: **Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:00 pm**

Posted: **Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:09 pm**

btone wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 pm ...Maoist China and the French Revolution.

I'm pretty sure no one has been sent to the guillotine.

We're just doubting some doubtful directions in a book.

I'm also pretty sure his career won't be impeded one bit by anything said on this forum. We spent pages grousing about Massimo La-what's-his-name and he still has more of a career going than anyone here.

Posted: **Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:14 pm**

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:50 pm Presenting such a vague and obviously over-broad aphorism as if it were a learned insight is working against the wish to be taken very, very seriously and unquestioningly.

It's a contradiction that is going to get noticed.

It worked for Sun Tzu. Then again, of you disagreed with him, he would just surround your army on three sides and give you the illusion of an escape, and destroy you as you tried to retreat.

I think Sam has a very old-school Eastern take on teaching. That doesn't resonate with a lot of Euro-Mericans or people in the 21st century in general.

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:45 am**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:14 pm
It worked for Sun Tzu. Then again, of you disagreed with him, he would just surround your army on three sides and give you the illusion of an escape, and destroy you as you tried to retreat.

I think Sam has a very old-school Eastern take on teaching. That doesn't resonate with a lot of Euro-Mericans or people in the 21st century in general.

Exactly! Zen And The Art Of Trombone Playing. Way too cerebral for most.

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:30 am**

btone wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 pm Some say if you can't think of something nice to say about someone you should just say "bless their heart" or say nothing. That may be a stretch for some. Of course it's okay to disagree with someone in a discussion; but not to talk about them disrespectfully in their absence.

There's some history here you're unaware of and I'd rather not dredge up. But in the past it was not unusual for a conversation with him to become vicious rather quickly.

This particular thread has some people with disagreements, but relatively politely, wouldn't you say?

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:14 am**

“ I think Sam has a very old-school Eastern take on teaching.”

Perhaps you can elaborate?

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:31 am**

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:14 am “ I think Sam has a very old-school Eastern take on teaching.”

Perhaps you can elaborate?

Just watch any of his videos. His book is self-styled as "zen".

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:57 am**

I’ve got his TB&C book and watched some of his videos. I’ve attended an informal masterclass he gave, asked questions, and had a brief lesson with him. I drove him to the airport.

What part of his teaching do you think resembles Zen? Or “a very old-school Eastern take” on teaching?

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:44 am**

I posted because I was uncomfortable that Sam seemed to be getting a drubbing from several people while he was not a party to the thread to defend himself. He is a unique voice and I'm sorry he is not part of this forum. I almost went back and edited to to cede the fact that he may have brought some of it on himself by some past combative posts. I also almost edited out the thing about communist China and revolutionary France in an effort to not be offensive but that was not aimed at anyone on the thread. It was just a societal concern, trying to discourage anything that smacked of the internet age brand of mob justice, and I wanted to encourage trombone players to cut each other some slack. I do feel like a comradery based on mutual interest should be exhibited in our forum and I'm hoping we can pick up more members to make this an interesting place. I really got a lot out of the old trombone forum, except for the political threads that got combative ,and I really would like to see more experienced players not be hesitant to post. We can all learn from each other. Remember that people should be able to post without being afraid that someone is going to take them to task. Being right is often overrated.

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:41 pm**

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:57 am I’ve got his TB&C book and watched some of his videos. I’ve attended an informal masterclass he gave, asked questions, and had a brief lesson with him. I drove him to the airport.

What part of his teaching do you think resembles Zen? Or “a very old-school Eastern take” on teaching?

Sure:

Sam Burtis:

"A note is just a very fast tempo. …a tempo is just a very slow note.

Now do we perceive that tempo as a note? No. Of course not.
Why? We are not big enough. Not slow enough.

Think on it
....
After you are well into this process, it is my hope that you will begin see your instrument and indeed music itself in a whole
new light.
Be patient. Nothing truly new comes easily or quickly. But it is there for the taking if you have the proper aim.
I leave you with a Zen saying that encapsulates the entire learning process as it is encountered in any and all real
endeavours:

Before Zen, a tree is just a tree.
During Zen, everything is confused.
After Zen, a tree is once again a tree. Only different."

Miyamoto Musashi:

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.

Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world

Even if you strive diligently on your chosen path day after day, if your heart is not in accord with it, then even if you think you are on a good path, from the point of view of the straight and true, this is not a genuine path. If you do not pursue a genuine path to its consummation, then a little bit of crookedness in the mind will later turn into a major warp.

Reflect on this."

I don't know what to tell you, man, but I see no reason to jump through any more hoops for you over Sam's obvious writing style and the influences on it. Read some Eastern manuals and training programs and perhaps you'll see it too. This is not a criticism of Sam on my part. Writing like one of the most studied authors of all time is not a bad thing.

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:00 pm**

Thank you Harrison. That was very helpful.

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:02 pm**

Sounding zen-ish or eastern or making up contradictions doesn't make it profound. I read the books about motorcycles and tennis too.

Maybe we need a visual. Fu Manchu, John Lennon shades, Samuel Jackson beret, Bill Watrous paisley tunic, Jesus sandals?

Oh, and my malware software has this to say about his website:

samburtis.com.jpg

"due to reputation"?!?!?!

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:26 pm**

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:19 pm**

He plays professionally across all low brass, he participated in our forums at a time where they were fairly toxic on a lot of levels, he formalized his learnings into two volume and taught around the country to supplement his income, ... at some point, "yea but he was mean about the conventional wisdom re: the diaphragm" seems a bit insignificant in evaluating the man, let alone his materials. A lot of shit got personal over there, and it always took at least two.

Nowadays he's a good follow on Facebook - might even answer questions about his book or teaching if you are respectful. Meaning: some of y'all should just continue leaving him alone. He's not for you. It'll be ok.

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:15 pm**

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:09 pm
btone wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 pm ...Maoist China and the French Revolution.
I'm pretty sure no one has been sent to the guillotine.

We're just doubting some doubtful directions in a book.

I'm also pretty sure his career won't be impeded one bit by anything said on this forum. We spent pages grousing about Massimo La-what's-his-name and he still has more of a career going than anyone here.

Genau!!

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:17 pm**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:41 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:57 am I’ve got his TB&C book and watched some of his videos. I’ve attended an informal masterclass he gave, asked questions, and had a brief lesson with him. I drove him to the airport.

What part of his teaching do you think resembles Zen? Or “a very old-school Eastern take” on teaching?
Sure:

Sam Burtis:

"A note is just a very fast tempo. …a tempo is just a very slow note.

Now do we perceive that tempo as a note? No. Of course not.
Why? We are not big enough. Not slow enough.

Think on it
....
After you are well into this process, it is my hope that you will begin see your instrument and indeed music itself in a whole
new light.
Be patient. Nothing truly new comes easily or quickly. But it is there for the taking if you have the proper aim.
I leave you with a Zen saying that encapsulates the entire learning process as it is encountered in any and all real
endeavours:

Before Zen, a tree is just a tree.
During Zen, everything is confused.
After Zen, a tree is once again a tree. Only different."

Miyamoto Musashi:

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.

Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world

Even if you strive diligently on your chosen path day after day, if your heart is not in accord with it, then even if you think you are on a good path, from the point of view of the straight and true, this is not a genuine path. If you do not pursue a genuine path to its consummation, then a little bit of crookedness in the mind will later turn into a major warp.

Reflect on this."

I don't know what to tell you, man, but I see no reason to jump through any more hoops for you over Sam's obvious writing style and the influences on it. Read some Eastern manuals and training programs and perhaps you'll see it too. This is not a criticism of Sam on my part. Writing like one of the most studied authors of all time is not a bad thing.

Thank you, Grasshopper!

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2024 5:27 pm**

Anyone willing to part with their Burtis books? (pease pm me)

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2024 5:40 pm**

Hahaha such funny thread!

i really miss him for his passion & enthusiasm…

Posted: **Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:00 am**

Wayne's video is great. Thanks.

I'm reminded of a masterclass at music college. Bernard Purdie came in and got a drummer to just play 4 on the ride. He was great then and has since gone on to play with everyone, so definitely no chump. Then Bernard sat on the same kit and played 4 on the same cymbal. Somehow Bernard's 4 was so much better!

Great time is so, so important.

Posted: **Fri Oct 18, 2024 6:08 am**

iranzi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 5:40 pm Hahaha such funny thread! Sam Burtis must have been a bit confused: serving Zen to tpherald crowd?? Only hardcore Presbyterianism would have worked there

i really miss him for his passion & enthusiasm…

He also shared those ideas with a tuba forum, I forget which one. As I recall, he made a comment like "now you'll probably ban me," and someone replied, "Don't be silly. We have an ignore button."

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