TromboneChat

On the topic of one's life being audible in one's music...ESPECIALLY the naked improvisations of master jazz musicians.

From a master novelist and student of the human condition, here is a passage about Bird from Thomas Pynchon´s epic novel Gravity´s Rainbow .

QuoteDown in New York, drive fast maybe get there for the last set--on 7th Ave., between 139th and 140th, tonight, “Yardbird” Parker is finding out how he can use the notes at the higher ends of these very chords to break up the melody into have mercy what is it a ******* machine gun or something man he must be out of his mind 32nd notes demisemiquavers say it very (demisemiquaver) fast in a Munchkin voice if you can dig that coming out of Dan Wall’s Chili House and down the street--****, out in all kinds of streets (his trip, by ‘39, well begun: down inside his most affirmative solos honks already the idle, amused dum-de-dumming of old Mister ******* Death he self) out over the airwaves, into the society gigs, someday as far as what seeps out hidden speakers in the city elevators and in all the markets, his bird’s singing, to gainsay the Man’s lullabies, to subvert the groggy wash of the endlessly, gutlessly overdubbed strings...So that prophecy, even up here on rainy Massachusetts Avenue, is beginning these days to work itself out in “Cherokee,” the saxes downstairs getting now into some, oh really weird ****...
"...down inside his most affirmative solos honks already the idle, amused dum-de-dumming of old Mister f*****g Death he self..."

Yup.

We are what...and how...we play.

All of us.

Bet on it.

Frank too.

S.

QuoteWe are what...and how...we play.

All of us.

Bet on it.

Frank too.

Amen

Well, of course.

However, although you can judge the player by his actions, that doesn't mean it should affect your judgement of the playing. I don't like Louis Armstrong's playing because his biographies show him to have been a thoroughly nice guy. I don't dislike Frank Rosolino's playing because he went mad and shot his kids. I just dislike his playing.

QuoteWell, of course.

However, although you can judge the player by his actions, that doesn't mean it should affect your judgement of the playing. I don't like Louis Armstrong's playing because his biographies show him to have been a thoroughly nice guy. I don't dislike Frank Rosolino's playing because he went mad and shot his kids. I just dislike his playing.
I think you're missing the point Moma.

A players actions and his playing are the same thing, they come from the same source, his personality, who he IS. I don't dislike Frank Rosolinl's playing because he went mad and shot his kids. I can't listen to his playing because I pretend I can hear in his playing that he *was* mad and shot his kids.

To dark for me by half.

Yes, but what if you didn't KNOW he'd done that? In the days before the internet, you would probably have had no idea, unless you took the trouble to buy a bio. Many people probably still don't know his history - I certainly didn't, before it was raised here in previous topics. How would you rate his playing then? I think you're missing the point a bit too.

All right, if you're going to dredge it up, I'm no longer "done."

Christine has hit the nail on the head. Judging a man's entire artistic output by something you know about his life off the stage seems ridiculous to me. Worse than that, you're looking at the most horrible thing he ever did in his life, which is ludcrous. There are so many variables.

Is the problem his suicide? Are you going to stop listening to J.J. Johnson for the same reason?

Is the problem that he shot his sons? How do you know what J.J. would have done if his wife had committed suicide and left him as the sole supporter of two boys? You can speculate, but you will never know. The fact is that Rosolino was subjected to a set of circumstances that most of us will never face, and that we would never want to face. You may think that you'd act in an exemplary fashion when placed in the same circumstances. Be thankful that you'll never know.

If Rosolino hadn't been put to the test, chances are you'd never be seeing this "dark side" or looking for it in his music. Most people are never put to this test. Judging a man who has walked many miles in shoes that you'll never wear is spiteful, self-righteous, and ugly.

Ask someone who doesn't know how Rosolino's life ended and they'll hear no "dark side" in the music. Tell someone that Arthur Prior used to kick his dog and they'll hear it in every solo he plays. I'd like to think that an artist is everything he or she does in his or her life. Not just the worst. Looking for the worst in everything a person does is an ugly pursuit.

Jerry, your whole argument here is that you think people should sympathize with your inability to listen to Rosolino because you can't forgive him for what he did. I can't forgive him either, but I recognize that there was a Frank Rosolino before that final act, and that the music all preceded the final act. You're a very judgmental person, but you needn't drag the rest of us down with you. Why not just give in and say that something about you as a person makes Rosolino's music distasteful without continually dredging this up in the forum. What's your goal here? Do you want us to stop listening to Rosolino? You'll never succeed. Do you want us to see him as a man who did something terrible? We're already there.

I hope after your death, people see you for the good you did during your life instead of the worst thing you ever did in your life. I hope they do the same for me.

QuoteYes, but what if you didn't KNOW he'd done that? In the days before the internet, you would probably have had no idea, unless you took the trouble to buy a bio. Many people probably still don't know his history - I certainly didn't, before it was raised here in previous topics. How would you rate his playing then?
Sabutin wrote:
QuoteFrank? He was missing something important. Certainly not sheer musical talent. The OTHER thing. Whatever the hell that is
IMHO that other thing was in Frank's case some very loose marbles which finally resulted in a horrible catastrophe. And it came out his horn if you're listening, again in my opinion. The internet doesn't help this situation these days but the circumstances of Franks death were widely known before its existence.

And if you will allow me to quote myself for emphasis...

QuoteIt was my submission then, as it is now, that *everything* we do, on stage or off - laugh, sing, tap dance, play the trombone, join a band, get married, kill our kids - is all part of the act.
Now more than ever, the whole message is the message.

Whether we pay attention is another question.

So, why do so many people rate Rosolino's playing so highly?

I personally don't like his playing because it appears to me to be merely a technical exercise (which is also the case for a number of contemporary players), but others see it very differently.

QuoteSo, why do so many people rate Rosolino's playing so highly?
As we all agree, Rosolino was a phonemenal jazz trombonist.

An very original sounding one too.

But so was Ian Brady who committed the Moors murders.

An original that is, not a trombonist as far as is known. 

Hmmm. Thanks for that insight, Jerry.

However, I'm not sure you answered my question.

No, I'm quite sure you didn't!

QuoteHmmm. Thanks for that insight, Jerry.

However, I'm not sure you answered my question.

No, I'm quite sure you didn't!
Well let me put it this way.

If Hitler had been a trombone virtuoso would you buy his recordings?

To me the difference between the two men is one of difference of degree rather than kind. Both men were loons with a definite connection to the dark side. And both were responsible for taking innocent life. I needn't add that evil can sometimes hide behind a very attractive face.

And what is that quote from the Koran about the taking of one innocent life being akin to the murder of the whole of humanity?

Dang, after all this it's a good thing Frank wasn't a Doodler.   

But seriously, a seriously nice F to open.  He had a great G, too, I think best I've heard.

And on the show this clip is from he's using a horn that I could swear says F. E. Olds on the garland (!), but I've never seen anything that looks like it anywhere else. 

It seems we may have opened up a fertile new branch of psychiatric diagnosis.  I never would have guessed it possible to identify a suicidal murderer based on listening to a musical excerpt.  I'll keep my ears open for this now.  Maybe we can use this technique to arrest other musicians before they kill their loved ones.

Quote from: BoneCall on Nov 03, 2007, 10:21AMIf Hitler had been a trombone virtuoso would you buy his recordings?
I can understand having qualms about listening to such recordings.  I can also understand appreciating such recordings musically.  It seems to be politically correct that "thou shalt not say anything nice about Adolf Hitler, ever"; I think that's unfortunate.  It is also apparently politically correct that "thou shalt not listen to Rosolino without thinking of the end of his life"; I think that's unfortunate, too.  I like to think that I could listen to Rosolino and decide whether I like his playing based on his playing, the same way I evaluate Cat Stevens, Gesualdo, Wagner, Fillmore, Bach, Henry VIII, and a host of other musicians who have various kinds of objectionable behaviors in their lives.

My compromise on this issue is to listen only to the music he played before the murder/suicide.

....I don't remember him playing too much afterwards....

QuoteDang, after all this it's a good thing Frank wasn't a Doodler.   
Now that REALLY would have been the last straw.

Quote  It seems to be politically correct that "thou shalt not say anything nice about Adolf Hitler, ever"; I think that's unfortunate.
Hitler gets a bad rap eh?

In that case I have some friends in east germany that shave their heads who would be glad to meet you.

Quote from: BFW on Nov 03, 2007, 11:25AM I like to think that I could listen to Rosolino and decide whether I like his playing based on his playing, the same way I evaluate Cat Stevens, Gesualdo, Wagner, Fillmore, Bach, Henry VIII, and a host of other musicians who have various kinds of objectionable behaviors in their lives.

You forgot Michael Jackson...

But.... but.... Jerry, if Hitler had written music, and you had never heard of him, would you be able to divine his unsavoury actions from his music? I doubt if you are, or if anyone is, that perceptive.

And I don't like the sound of your friends.

I'm not sure how to apply the "did the artist's life conform to Jerry's code for how it should turn out" standard for art----what if I see an interesting CD and just want to listen? Should i purchase a biography of the performer, composer or publisher first? what if it's an Andean pan-flute quartet and no names are listed? And what is a "dark" side? Did Hector Berlioz have a side that was too dark? Coltrane? Monk? Miles?

I'm really torn now about antiquities. Seeing an art book I have no idea what the artists did---did they drink too much? Were they mean to their slaves? Did they sleep with a patron's wife? Did he murder someone? Did the artist have a gay lover?

What a mess! 

Well, he might have chopped his ear off.

QuoteI'm really torn now about antiquities. Seeing an art book I have no idea what the artists did---did they drink too much? Were they mean to their slaves? Did they sleep with a patron's wife? Did he murder someone?

What a mess!
How inconvenient for you!

This consciousness raising business can take all the fun out of pastimes like browsing the aisles of the local jewelry shop. Was diamond mined by slave labor? Do the proceeds of the sale underwrite arms sales to shady regimes? etc. etc.

Much easier to just close your eyes and consume.

Do you live in a different way to this, Jerry? Do you buy Fair Trade coffee, ensure that your bank doesn't invest in corrupt regimes, worry about slave labour when you buy your jeans, not have friends who shave their hair and wear Swasticas?

And you still haven't answered my question about how you think YOU can discern a person's actions through his music. I'm quite sure you cannot. And I'm quite sure you won't answer my question either.

QuoteDo you live a different way, Jerry? Do you buy Fair Trade coffee, ensure that your bank doesn't invest in corrupt regimes, worry about slave labour when you buy your jeans, not have friends who shave their hair and wear Swastikas?
You have to allow me a smidgen of poetic license from time to time Mama. For the Record I have absolutely no friemds who shave their hair and/or wear swastikas. 

As for living a different way I live the same way most everyone else does, except that I wouldn't let anyone I know who murdered his young child OR their music anywhere near my 5 year old son.

Ah, but you have to KNOW that. If you didn't know, you WOULDN'T know.

Quote from: BoneCall on Nov 03, 2007, 03:04PMHitler gets a bad rap eh?
See, now, you're being politically correct again, and making invalid assumptions about what I said.

Let's say someone you know of is a fine artist.  You think that person's artwork is excellent.  That person's artwork is displayed in galleries and generally reviewed very well.  Then that person goes and guns down a hundred people at a shopping mall.

Of course that person's actions are horrid.  However, it suddenly becomes politically correct to avoid calling that person's artwork "well done".  It becomes a knee-jerk reaction of people who only view the world in black and white to condemn ANY positive statement about that person.  History gets revised; that person's art work was suddenly NEVER any good, despite your previous enjoyment of it, despite the critical praise, despite the gallery showings.  That's idiotic to the extreme.

Quote from: BoneCall on Nov 03, 2007, 04:01PMI wouldn't let anyone I know who murdered his young child OR their music anywhere near my 5 year old son.
Do you know for certain that every composer and every arranger and every performer on every recording you own did not commit some heinous act later in life?  Do you know for certain that none of the music you listen to was the favorite music of some serial killer?

Many people live right next door to a serial killer and think of him as that quiet guy next door. We are NOT that perceptive and I believe we should just take the music on its merits.

Quote from: RedHotMama on Nov 03, 2007, 03:41PMAnd you still haven't answered my question about how you think YOU can discern a person's actions through his music.
Well you can't expect a person to give up the secrets of such a rare talent so easily, certainly not on an Internet chat board.  I also have that talent.  And while I'm not going to tell all of my secrets, let me caution you to avoid too many staccatos in your solos, and never, under any circumstance should you play repetitive tritones.  You might find yourself arrested on the spot if there is another of us musical mind readers in your company. 

Oh yes ... one other thing.  Don't shoot anybody during your act.  That is another of the major warning signs.

I've probably said way too much already.

Quote from: RedHotMama on Nov 03, 2007, 03:41PMAnd you still haven't answered my question about how you think YOU can discern a person's actions through his music. I'm quite sure you cannot. And I'm quite sure you won't answer my question either.

He didn't.

Quote from: BFW on Nov 03, 2007, 04:17PMDo you know for certain that every composer and every arranger and every performer on every recording you own did not commit some heinous act later in life?  Do you know for certain that none of the music you listen to was the favorite music of some serial killer?

This is a poor argument. We're not talking about if  Frank committed murder... he did commit murder. If a tree falls in the forest and all that.

I think Jerry has every right not to listen to Frank Rosolino for whatever reason he so chooses. And that reason could change from day to day.

RHM has the right to think Frank's playing stinks... I think that's fine.

I don't really see what the point of Jerry's arguing about it is though. Maybe he could enlighten? I mean, is it a crusade to try and get other people not to listen to Frank? Because I think that's silly.

I think Jerry's saying that his knowledge of Frank's sad demise makes him less disposed to listen to Frank's music, and he doesn't like it anyway. That's his privilege.

The business about "the dark side showing up in the music" is a little iffier. I find a lot of joy in Michael Jackson's music and would never by listening to it think of him as a pathetic, child-molesting weirdo. Maybe some people keep their music in a little compartment within themselves and protect it from everything else.

I find Frank's playing to be sly, wry, hip, a little deadpan and detached, like dry humor. I hear the same quality in his speaking and singing.

As someone who experienced mental illness in my family, I know it can be tricky to draw any conclusion about someone's personality or character from it. The onset of mental illness can be as unrelated to the person's underlying character as the onset of the flu or measles. The illness is more like an overlay than a part of the person.

Of course it's possible that he was ill in his later recordings and Jerry can detect that. If so, I'm going to get all my employees to play the trombone and send Jerry the tracks. He can tell me which ones are using drugs.

Quote from: malec on Nov 03, 2007, 04:46PM

I don't really see what the point of Jerry's arguing about it is though. Maybe he could enlighten? I mean, is it a crusade to try and get other people not to listen to Frank? Because I think that's silly.

Don't expect an answer any time soon. So far, the extent of Jerry's argument is that  all of Rosolino's music was permeated with the character flaw which would eventually result in his final acts on this earth, which were terrible by any standards, and that Jerry can't listen to Rosolino without thinking about those last acts. I don't know why he can't simply accept that rather than broadcasting it on this forum every time Rosolino's playing is mentioned. And I still don't know what I'm supposed to do with this information. Stop listening to Rosolino? Burn my Rosolino CDs? Burn your Rosolino CDs? Boycott any store that sells them? I don't know, and Jerry ain't talking.

He still hasn't said whether his son is allowed to listen to J.J. Johnson, who also committed suicide, or to Coltrane, who abused drugs. Perhaps they're only allowed to listen to Christian Rock. You can never be too careful. 

Quote from: Piano man on Nov 03, 2007, 05:18PMOf course it's possible that he was ill in his later recordings and Jerry can detect that. If so, I'm going to get all my employees to play the trombone and send Jerry the tracks. He can tell me which ones are using drugs.
If you listen to his solo on "All The Things You Are" played backwards at 4 times the normal speed, you can clearly hear what sounds like, "I'm losing it.  Somebody stop me.", although it sounds more like Mickey Mouse's voice than Frank's, so I'm not sure what that means.

QuoteAh, but you have to KNOW that. If you didn't know, you WOULDN'T know.
But we DO know.

And we'll know more and more about each other in the future.

QuoteIf you didn't know, you WOULDN'T know.
I never claimed you could as I remember. What I HAVE been saying is that Rosolinos's music is "the fruit of the poisoned tree" and is irrevocably tainted by who he was and the way he behaved. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum. Hearing that music without knowing the history behind it is like eating delicious steak thats gone bad even though it continues to taste and smell OK. You can still get sick.


QuoteSee, now, you're being politically correct again, and making invalid assumptions about what I said.
Politically correct has nothing to do with it. Hitler was a monster and a maniac who instigated the deaths of millions of people. The fact that he might have cut unemployment in Germany for a while in the thirties as he built autobahns to help transport his armies around the country in preparation for total war is so insignificant as to be unmentionable. Any flowers he might have presented to a war widow would be tainted in the same way, good in itself but absolutely tainted when connected with him. 

QuoteI don't really see what the point of Jerry's arguing about it is though. Maybe he could enlighten?
This subject has been an open question in my mind since the original discussion was quashed on the forum some months ago. Giving the subject a full airing now is the best way to bring some finality to what I consider to be an important issue about one the jazz trombone's most sacred cows.

QuoteI'm going to get all my employees to play the trombone and send Jerry the tracks. He can tell me which ones are using drugs.
Its going to cost you.

And not only money.

You might have to unload some principles at the same time.

I have to agree with Jerry (mark your calendars!) that it's always seemed a little strange that the topic is off-limits.

Of course it goes to repetition pretty quickly, and maybe some of the senior members of this forum wore it out long ago.

Kinda like asking who's better Alessi or CL, or 'Which mouthpiece is best for jazz?'

I have to admit that Jerry's added a twist--not just "I won't listen to him because of what he did," but "His music sounds like what he did."

It's not impossible. If he was bipolar, he might have committed the crimes while depressed and played too many turns while manic.

Calendar marked.

Listen I'm struggling with this myself, its not like I pretend to have all the answers.

But this is a BIG question folks. Morality and Art is a huge and important subject and one as artists we need to deal with not least because its germane to one of our heros.

"Which mouthpiece should I use" pales in comparison.

And speaking of senior members, where the hell is Sam when we need him?

Quote from: BoneCall on Nov 03, 2007, 05:35PMWhat I HAVE been saying is that Rosolinos's music is "the fruit of the poisoned tree" and is irrevocably tainted by who he was and the way he behaved.
It's tainted in YOUR view, but that doesn't mean it's tainted for everybody, nor should it be.

QuoteHearing that music without knowing the history behind it
Wouldn't that be the history ahead of it?

QuoteHitler was a monster and a maniac who instigated the deaths of millions of people.
I didn't claim otherwise.

QuoteThe fact that he might have ...
All completely irrelevant.  Nobody made any claims about Hitler being a "good person" or a "good leader" or any such sentiment.  He was a painter as a young man; was he any good?  Or can't you imagine anyone being able to evaluate the young Hitler as an artist while knowing what he did later in life?

Some people can't listen to Wagner because of his anti-Semitism.  That's their prerogative.  It's when they insist that OTHER people not listen to Wagner that it becomes a problem.  They may also think it's important for every potential listener to be aware that Wagner was an anti-Semite; I disagree.  Music is music.  Ars gratia artis.  I can listen to Henry VIII without qualms even though he killed several of his wives; perhaps that's too brutal for some other people, though.

Hitler was a great painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon.........two coats

These Rosolini suicide/murder topics roll around fairly frequently. They don't get locked because the subject is taboo. They get locked because they invariably turn nasty. I'm hoping this one won't.

Quote They don't get locked because the subject is taboo. They get locked because they invariably turn nasty.
Thats not entirely true Mama. The one in particular that I remember was terminated because the Moderater thought that the discussion about Rosolino was "mean spirited". Guess he was a Rosolino fan. At any rate it was very apparent that he personally couldn't deal with the issue.

Well, I hope this doesn't get mean-spirited then! To my mind, the man comes under the category of a celebrity, and it is Forum policy for members freely to discuss celebrities/politicians/religious leaders as long as the TOU are broadly adhered to. Also, he is dead, so cannot be harmed by our discussions, which may even interest new members in his playing. I apologise to Rosolino fans whom I have offended (and may offend again), but we are all entitled to proffer opinions. For myself as moderator, I'll just be watching out for personal sniping between members.

Maybe we can talk about Frank's golfing. 

I mean, here's a guy, a TROMBONIST, for goodness sakes, on NATIONAL TV, like, how often does a TROMBONIST get a FULL HALF HOUR on NATIONAL TV, and what does the guy do?  Ok, he plays some great trombone, but spends maybe FIVE MINUTES of NATIONAL AIR TIME talking about how he likes to PLAY GOLF!

I'm thinking this was a sign, a sign to anyone paying attention, serious imbalance here...

You're kidding, right Baileyman? A LOT of musicians play golf!

Frank flipped, simple as that. It happens more often than you know. And it's almost always a guy, not a gal, that takes out his family and then himself.

Jerry, I find it hard to belive that Frank's recording of "take me out to the ballgame", recorded when he was very young, is "the fruit of the poisoned tree". I'm sure that he was a very different man at age 45 than he was at age 20. I know I am. Life can beat a person up, sometimes badly.

I, like many others was disgusted by his final ending and didn't listen to his playing for at least 10 years. Then, for some reason, I began listening to him again and I enjoy his artistry very much. Forgiveness on my part? If that's even the correct word. Don't know.

RedHotMama, no need to apologize to this Ros fan. But I do find it interesting that you seem to not like many trombonists beyond the 1920's gut-bucket style of playing.

Quote from: The Sheriff on Nov 04, 2007, 05:49AMFrank flipped, simple as that. It happens more often than you know.
Definitely.  A fellow trombonist of mine is a psychiatrist.  We were chatting the other night.  He has an endless supply of really tragic stories.  There are disturbed people all around, and most of them look perfectly normal until they flip.  Unfortunately our uniquely American approach to health care means that the first time many of these people can get professional help is when they are in prison, which is where the majority of his practice is these days.

Quote from: The Sheriff on Nov 04, 2007, 05:58AMRedHotMama, no need to apologize to this Ros fan. But I do find it interesting that you seem to not like many trombonists beyond the 1920's gut-bucket style of playing.

It would be a mistake to believe that all 1920s trombone players were "gut-bucket". There were some really nifty players back then, and a wide variety of styles. I don't like the 1920s playing of Kid Ory, who even to my mind was clunky, but no-one could accuse Miff Mole of that. Sweet, lyrical, skilled and sophisticated music.

What I do dislike are trombone players who apparently include "notes" just for the sake of them. I confess that I haven't heard much Ros, but he seems to me to come into the category of trombone players who, simply put, play too many notes and, moreover, too many high notes. IMO, in a jazz band, this is the function of the trumpet(s) and reeds. If we all do it, then where is the contrast and richness of variety? OK, in the hands of a master, the trombone CAN play multiple high notes, but I would much rather it didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djSuSK_E6Ww
(Miff's solo at 1.25)

http://www.redhotjazz.com/mmm.html

Quote from: The Sheriff on Nov 04, 2007, 05:49AMYou're kidding, right Baileyman? A LOT of musicians play golf!

Uh, oh.

Well Mama, I'd hardly call that Miff Mole solo sophisticated, perhaps for the times it was, but not now.

Frank was a soloist and often times the leader of a quartet or quintet playing music much different than your favorite type of music. When he blew, his voice took it where it took him. It's where he heard it. High? Sometimes, but he didn't spend an extraordinary amount of time in the stratosphere. A lot of notes? Not by todays standards. Lord knows there are many trombonists today that play way more notes than Frank ever did. Frank was hip, whereas most are not.