TromboneChat

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:05 pm @Wilktone: The $800 was for a performance so it included all royalties (since we did not have BMI membership; just ASCAP).

I would bet that pop stuff like Taylor Swift or Beyoncé will have a lot of roadblocks to creating a Big Band arrangement unless done by their respective arrangers for a gig.

The Military Big Bands have "in house" arrangers to provide arrangements of popular music for their use (your tax dollars at work ). It's too bad these arrangements cannot be bought because they are done by the Military and cannot be given because of copyright issues.

Plus, the Military Bands don't charge admission for their concerts and they aren't in the business of trying to make money at a gig or off of their recordings.

Quite different than the 'civilian world'.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:02 pm Has anybody played an arrangement of a Taylor Swift song? Shake It Off for big band?

I recall talking to Fred Sturm about some Steely Dan arrangements he did for the WDR Big Band. He couldn’t SELL me copies of the arrangements, he said, but he could
GIVE me copies.

Any chance you could GIVE anyone else those charts?

A local new music ensemble performed Zappa’s Yellow Shark (“new”? Must be 50 years old! Over half a century).

Paid through the nose to the Zappa estate, I heard. SRO though.

quote=Mikebmiller post_id=228055 time=1702781599 user_id=213]

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:00 pm Back to Mikebmiller’s original inquiry…

*The “holiday sweater with any type of pants look” is not working for this group.

A friend who started up a big band used to advise: Dress as if you’re getting paid.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:41 am Looking at the big band examples you listed made me wonder a bit as to how accurate your impression is of the material these bands perform. Your take on this seemed as if these bands were largely playing pop or rock charts, sneaking in the occasional swing chart. My impression is the opposite, these bands largely played more straight-ahead jazz, but snuck in funk and rock charts from time to time.

For example, Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band's first album was "Swinging For the Fences." There are 10 tracks on it.

• Sing Sang Sung - A tribute or parady of Sing Sing Sing, a popular tune from the swing era. Shuffle groove.
  Count Bubba - Straight ahead swing chart
  Samba Del Gringo - Latin tune
  Bach 2 Part Invention in D Minor - Jazz waltz arrangement of themes by Bach.
  I Remember - Bossa groove.
  Swinging For the Fences - Bebop chart
  Mueva Los Huesos - Another latin chart, salsa groove
  Second Chances - Straight 8ths waltz, on the mellow side with lots of instrumental colors
  There's the Rub - Funk chart, reminds me of Tower of Power
  A Few Good Men - A "rock march" chart.

So out of 10 charts, there are 2 that might be called "commercial" style.

Dave, I don't think anyone is saying that modern big bands don't play a lot of tunes with a swing or bebop feel. That's the bread and butter for most bands. But I'd hardly call that "straight-ahead jazz," especially when applied to Gordon Goodwin's tunes. First, Gordon is an insane person. LOL! I don't think you can call anything he has written "straight ahead." It's swing, yeah, but it has turned left and driven far down the road away from swing band material. I dare say that most of the typical "swing bands" probably couldn't even play Gordon's charts (especially the sax sections, as Gordon writes insane sax solis).

An example from Gordon's early writing comes to mind. He wrote a tune on I Got Rhythm changes, but it was focused on lydian tonality, with lots of tritones in the tonic chords. It was unrecognizable as I Got Rhythm, and in fact was aptly named I Got D'Zzzs.



Yeah, it's "swing." But I don't think anyone can call this "straight ahead" or something that a "swing band" would play. It's very modern (even though it was written almost 40 years ago). And that's the case will most things done by Gordon's Phat band and other modern, concert-oriented big bands. The feel is swing, but it ain't your grandfather's swing!

Thread hijack: heck of a photo of Watrous’ embouchure. Any of the TTC embouchure gurus care to comment?

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:52 pm Dave, I don't think anyone is saying that modern big bands don't play a lot of tunes with a swing or bebop feel. That's the bread and butter for most bands. But I'd hardly call that "straight-ahead jazz," especially when applied to Gordon Goodwin's tunes.

I don't think it's worth getting into what "straight ahead jazz" is commonly understood to be in this topic. The Bill Watrous track you posted is great, by the way, but I would also think also of it as straight-ahead (Albeit with some "out" features borrowed from free jazz. It's certainly not fusion or avant-garde).

As far as getting an audience out to hear big band performances goes, I did run a big band on my own for about 17 years, so I've had a lot of time to make mistakes and try some different things. Regarding the music I programmed, I listened to what audiences told me after our performance, tried to accommodate a request if I could, and paid attention to the sizes of our audiences for different concert themes.

For that band and this area, I found that audiences are largest for us when we play something like a swing dance or a Christmas concert. Audiences also like to come out to hear music by particular bands, so Benny Goodman or Duke Ellington concert usually does well. I've also put together performances where every chart on the show was written by someone in the band or in the area. There is something of an audience for those performances, but they didn't do as well as the other shows I mentioned above. But I also find that when you play the same original charts a bunch that they become familiar to regular audience members.

Over all the experimentation on programming I came up with a framework for programming music that audiences would enjoy and come back to hear the band again in a month. I would mostly program straight-ahead charts, making sure that there would be at least a couple of recognizable charts from the swing era and that there would be several charts each set that would be danceable. Around those charts I looked for charts that would provide some variety (latin, funk, something in a different meter, something a little "out," etc.). And at least a couple of charts each set to feature a vocalist.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:30 pm Thread hijack: heck of a photo of Watrous’ embouchure. Any of the TTC embouchure gurus care to comment?

Reinhardt type IIIA. We've talked about his chops a bunch here before. The Lloyd Leno film on my YouTube channel has slow motion video of Watrous playing a Bb above high Bb, slow motion with a transparent mouthpiece.

Dave

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:46 pm The problem is that the typical audience for Big Bands is becoming a bunch of blue hairs like the audience for classical.

The aging Boomers and Greatest Generation are the only folks who seem to want to listen to Big Bands.

Yes, and there the sales are. You need to find places where elderly people with cultural interests and money in the pockets meet anyhow. Some examples

Coworking with the Danish Club for the Elderly called ældresagen, which has local chapters all over the country, our amateur Big Band sold 250 tickets in a smaller town in 10 days , no more seats available.

We played a dance gig for 300 paying guest at the annunal Veteran Car Association meeting, they loved it and danced after their congress and dinner for 3 hours.

Tivoli Concert Hall in the Tivoli Garden in the Center of Copenhagen , which is very popular among elderly, fits about 1200 seats, we did often sell about 900 seats when playing with the Copenhagen Police Band, a wind orchester, when using popular but aging singers, remembered by the aging listeners.

Filled a circus tent with 600 seats, again with a convention of the Club for the Elderly.

Sold 250 seats at a concert after lunch on a full day convention of Inner Wheels, the ladies fraction of Rotary Club

All these concerts where piggy packed on events where the audience came anyhow.

Just some thoughts for you. ...

Wilktone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:39 am
Reinhardt type IIIA. We've talked about his chops a bunch here before. The Lloyd Leno film on my YouTube channel has slow motion video of Watrous playing a Bb above high Bb, slow motion with a transparent mouthpiece.

Dave

That video was quite interesting (and pretty disgusting ). Some of those embouchures really surprised me. Thanks for posting it.

marccromme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:33 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:46 pm The problem is that the typical audience for Big Bands is becoming a bunch of blue hairs like the audience for classical.


The aging Boomers and Greatest Generation are the only folks who seem to want to listen to Big Bands.

Yes, and there the sales are. You need to find places where elderly people with cultural interests and money in the pockets meet anyhow. Some examples

...but, it is encouraging that younger audiences are attending more and more symphony concerts. (here in North America). It's still a tough sell, but statistics show that more younger people are going out to hear the symphony especially when they perform concerts devoted to John Williams or other 'theme concerts'. Then, the symphony can also play some other music as well in the hopes of inspiring a new generation of listeners. A lot of it comes down to clever marketing depending on the type of city and the culture of the city.

And, here in North America, audiences are packed for 'Tribute Bands' (ie: Chicago, Three (One!) Dog Night, ABBA's, Beatles's, etc. etc. etc.)

The audience? Pretty much age 60 and over. They have the time and money to 're-live' their youth.

It's like playing an 'Elvis tribute' concert. You have to wear sunglasses because the light reflects off the sea of silver/gray hair that's out there, plus you also need to arrive early in order to get around the fast-moving walkers and wheel chairs if you want to get to the theatre entrance in time

I play in a really good R&B/Funky Rock band. It's great to have 20-somethings' come up and say they're knocked out by the music. That's an excellent sign.

Anyways..... a gig's a gig. (but these are fun, challenging, and enjoyable to all....band members and audience!)

Cmillar wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:05 am To think about:

What was it that turned many of us onto music, and made us excited about wanting to become musicians and dedicate ourselves to this crazy world of music?

- we were listening to and and going out to hear Maynard Ferguson's 'MF Band' live.
Totally exciting to young 'wanna-be musicians', right?
What were they playing....arrangements of current pop tunes, film music. It was a hip and happening band. One in awhile you'd hear a hipper version of an old jazz standard. (he even introduced audiences to opera arias!)

- Buddy Rich big band was 'keeping up with the times' and playing some funky charts
- Woody Herman had some current hit tune arrangements
- Stan Kenton band was just super interesting, plus playing some hit tune arrangements
- Count Basie band still had a unique style and sound (appealing to all ages!)

All these band leaders WERE part of the 'Big Band Traditions' earlier in their careers. (both 'dance bands' and the 'concert jazz bands')

After those days, they were all out there trying to attract new and younger audiences in order to keep the big band traditions alive.

Boy, if there's anything that strikes me as trying too hard, it was big bands deciding they needed to be relevant, which they took to mean wearing bell bottoms, white guys with afros and aviator glasses, and playing rock charts or jazz charts that changed meter every 3 bars.

On the other hand, I'm sure Woody Herman got sick of playing "Blue Flame" after the 10,000 performance, it couldn't have been easy keeping a band on the road for something like 45 years, and wallowing in nostalgia isn't so great, either.

I appreciate that threading the needle between Lawrence Welk and Sun Ra would have been hard, maybe you had to be there, but I groan anytime someone tells me they love Maynard Ferguson, like their instrument is a hammer.

This thread started two years ago, but the topic remains topical. Not just for big band concerts, musically very different community groups - Scottish Fiddlers, classical, old-time jams, experience the same. My experience is with traditional acoustic music styles, including organizing one of the longest running banjo and fiddle festivals in the US. This is on the history, but I also wrote articles on staying relevant: https://folkworks.org/60-years-later-th ... ntestants/
How do you keep/grow audiences? The focus needs to be on the audience who at the minimum gives their time (and more often than not also money). The event needs to be attractive, good music helps, but it is just one of many components. Pleasant locations (or crammed seats in a stuffy room), do you meet people/friends before/after, new contacts, performers that care about the audience (rather than themselves)?
From the first posts, the photos may explain the declining audience regardless of music style. The group photo feels like "watch grandpa and his friend play bingo at their retirement community". Audience pull is going to be minor and would be the same whether that group tried to rap, shoot hoops, tell corny jokes, or play big band charts. Friends and maybe some next generation family.
Second, we see a rather uniform age group. All old men whose circle of acquaintances isn't growing. You want kids from the local school to come? Families with children (who aren't your grandchildren)? Start with having some in the band or as featured soloists, one from each of your local schools and you'll see a lot more younger people filling seats.
Community groups with a better staying power have that generational mix and keep renewing. As do successful festivals (I follow my own advice and turned the booking for the Topanga Festival over to somebody 25 years younger who has the social circle I had then). One of the most successful organizations in that respect is the California Bluegrass Association, whose events impress me every time by how evenly age groups and male/female musicians are represented.
Broaden the appeal of the group (socially, the music could very well stay the same, the kids in the California Bluegrass Association all play the 1940s/50 Monroe/Flatt and Scruggs classics) and the seats will start filling.

The band I'm in has a monthly gig and during our slower months (Jan - April) we have a high school big band play during our break (different high schools each month).

It gives both the kids and the parents some live-music experience with a big band, gives the kids and director a chance to put themselves through a performance outside of the usual home/festival contexts, and allows us to finish our beers without chugging. Some of the directors are from the band so it also lets the rest of the band see how they're doing (often quite well). The venue seats 180 and this addition makes the house closer to full rather than the half-full we might expect to see.

I also strongly second the suggestion of a vocalist on a few tunes.

Edit: we also do the high school festivals when we can, lots of ears there.

Some things that don't help build a big-band audience this day and age:

- the optics of a group of grey-haired, grizzled old men who appear as if they're just 'going through the motion' and who appear to be thoroughly bored while glancing at their watches as if they can hardly wait for the gig to end and wondering when they can go home (...I'm not wrong, correct?)

- the optics of a band which is a 'men-only' group or an 'old-boys' club

- when the band leader takes about 3 minutes between tunes in order to decide what to play next

- when the leader never even acknowledges the audience and keeps his back to the audience the whole gig

- using singers that have no business calling themselves singers

- using keyboard players that can't improvise and who can barely read what's on the chart

- using drummers that clearly don't know the music at all

We've a Monday night big band in Edinburgh. We're a tourist city, but even so I'm amazed how busy it is nearly every week. It's a small venue with a big reputation, which helps. But still very heartening.

A couple of pics from last night: https://pixelfed.scot/p/jb_bigband/805061479523809964

If you're in town, drop me a message. We can usually make space for a guest!

Cmillar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:26 am Some things that don't help build a big-band audience this day and age:

- the optics of a group of grey-haired, grizzled old men who appear as if they're just 'going through the motion' and who appear to be thoroughly bored while glancing at their watches as if they can hardly wait for the gig to end and wondering when they can go home (...I'm not wrong, correct?)

- the optics of a band which is a 'men-only' group or an 'old-boys' club

- when the band leader takes about 3 minutes between tunes in order to decide what to play next

- when the leader never even acknowledges the audience and keeps his back to the audience the whole gig

- using singers that have no business calling themselves singers

- using keyboard players that can't improvise and who can barely read what's on the chart

- using drummers that clearly don't know the music at all

These are pretty common, I would add to that a lack of common view as to each person's job in a section, and a lack of a common understanding of what swing 8ths are.

But let's face it: You are never going to win the Super Bowl with mediocre players, and 95% of all big bands you will hear are decidedly mediocre, so why is anyone surprised by mediocre results?

Cmillar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:26 am Some things that don't help build a big-band audience this day and age:

- the optics of a group of grey-haired, grizzled old men who appear as if they're just 'going through the motion' and who appear to be thoroughly bored while glancing at their watches as if they can hardly wait for the gig to end and wondering when they can go home (...I'm not wrong, correct?)

Like these old men?

- the optics of a band which is a 'men-only' group or an 'old-boys' club

- when the band leader takes about 3 minutes between tunes in order to decide what to play next

- when the leader never even acknowledges the audience and keeps his back to the audience the whole gig

- using singers that have no business calling themselves singers

- using keyboard players that can't improvise and who can barely read what's on the chart

- using drummers that clearly don't know the music at all

You mean bad bands. All those things are what bad bands do. Is it any surprise if bad bands can't pack the house?

mikerspencer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:55 am We've a Monday night big band in Edinburgh. We're a tourist city, but even so I'm amazed how busy it is nearly every week. It's a small venue with a big reputation, which helps. But still very heartening.

A couple of pics from last night: https://pixelfed.scot/p/jb_bigband/805061479523809964

If you're in town, drop me a message. We can usually make space for a guest!

I'm an American of Scottish descent, and I'm visiting Scotland next year for the first time in my life. If you're still doing it a year from now, I'll for sure make it a point to be in Edingurgh on a Monday night, just to come hear you. Bonus if you can figure out a way to get them to let me sit in.

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:04 am

mikerspencer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:55 am We've a Monday night big band in Edinburgh. We're a tourist city, but even so I'm amazed how busy it is nearly every week. It's a small venue with a big reputation, which helps. But still very heartening.

A couple of pics from last night: https://pixelfed.scot/p/jb_bigband/805061479523809964

If you're in town, drop me a message. We can usually make space for a guest!

I'm an American of Scottish descent, and I'm visiting Scotland next year for the first time in my life. If you're still doing it a year from now, I'll for sure make it a point to be in Edingurgh on a Monday night, just to come hear you. Bonus if you can figure out a way to get them to let me sit in.

We've been going for ~17 years, so I think we'll be good for another year. Bonus accepted, I'm the section fixer

We take a break in August because of the Fringe, but otherwise nearly every other Monday! http://thejazzbar.co.uk/

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:01 am

Cmillar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:26 am
Like these old men?




You mean bad bands. All those things are what bad bands do. Is it any surprise if bad bands can't pack the house?

Of course I mean the average bad band that much of the population has to endure....not The Phat Band!....that band is more than a 'big band'.

Goodwin is moving music forward. One of the greatest music groups on the planet.

I also vote for John Daversa's Progressive Big Band.

Some gray hairs in these bands? Sure!

But they're keeping music alive; not playing museum pieces.

There's no single demographic for big bands, and so there's no single answer to getting butts in performances of such bands. You also should beware of tying the "quality" of either the music or the playing to getting butts in seats -- at least around here.

Just this past weekend I (with my wife) attended a concert of a big band that I expected to be better than the one I play in. I was severely disappointed. The arrangements seemed dull, and for the ones that weren't dull, the tempos were tedious (well, okay then -- the effect was dull). There were some very good musicians in the band (I know because I've played, and play, with some of them; and you can just tell -- the solos were very good), but the overall effect was lackluster. We left at intermission. It had just gotten painful for both of us (it really got to the point of "When is this chart going to end?").

But ... It was a sold-out house in a community auditorium, and the audience appeared to LOVE it! Why? Nostalgia (or maybe some sort of pseudo-nostalgia, I guess, because the arrangements weren't anything like the 60s/70s tunes on which they were based). I know that one of those arrangements starts with the notation "Driving Rock" before the first bars, and another says "Driving Latin," but there was no driving rock or Latin to be heard. I would estimate the average age of audience members as 70+ -- and yes, they'll pour out of the retirement communities for such an event. They only have to drive fifteen minutes, there's easy parking, and there's cheap wine at the venue. And they relive their youth (or they pretend to relive their youth since their youth was never exposed to that sort of performance of those kinds of arrangements). So you can put butts in seats by doing that. But one of those butts isn't going to be mine -- either in the audience or on the stage.

Putting butts in seats is an important goal for any performing organization, but some ways of doing that may be better than others.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:10 pm Any thoughts on how to grow our audiences?

Be good at it. Play consistently and predictibly for some time (maybe year after year). This way audiences can find you, and feel comfortable with you and feel like you are consistent--both consistently good and consistently reliable. That way they can predict when you'll play next and hopefully they will plan to show up for a future show! You always have to build it up over time. No way around that, IMO and IME.

Also play tunes or charts that people like! That always helps, too!

In the bands I used to play in (only left as I moved out of area) we could easily get wedding gigs, charity balls and (university) student balls. Plenty of interest there but seems to be more popular in the young and middle-aged demographic as part of a fancy black-tie event than standalone concert.

For concerts, I think a partnership with a dance school or other dance group is viable and brings the dancers + friends/family to the gig. They get the benefit of a live band, I think the band also enjoys playing for dancers so it’s a win-win.

Another option, worth a try, is to make it free entry with a cup of tea and slice of cake or glass of Prosecco included, then ask for donations at the exit. Even if the refreshments cost the band say $1-2 per head, it’s a relatively small investment.

At the risk of repeating something already posted, I believe big bands are only viable nowadays as professional paid entities if they back up a famous singer. Michael Buble has no trouble retaining and touring his excellent big band, but if the band broke away with the piano player or lead trumpeter as leader for ex, and no singer, they probably couldn't give away tickets. Same with Matt Forbes, though I bet his fantastic band could sell SOME tickets. That is one killer studio band!
Maynard was the last instrumentalist leader to tour and record with a large band if not mistaken. And he had to trim it down to the bare bones by the end to make it work. One trombone player by then I believe.

To BGuttman:
"The Military Big Bands have "in house" arrangers to provide arrangements of popular music for their use (your tax dollars at work ). It's too bad these arrangements cannot be bought because they are done by the Military and cannot be given because of copyright issues"
I can attest that almost all of those charts are excellent. In this day and age military bands are being closed left and right. They stopped giving their music libraries to surviving bands because they have simply run out of room after the huge band closures of the 1990s and 2010s. BUT anyone clever at networking and pretty lucky could hear about an impending or recent band closure, find out where that music went (often to a college or HS these days) and ingratiate themselves enough to go over and run off some copies. Hey, we all paid taxes for that music.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Wed Mar 12, 2025 1:40 am In the bands I used to play in (only left as I moved out of area) we could easily get wedding gigs, charity balls and (university) student balls. Plenty of interest there but seems to be more popular in the young and middle-aged demographic as part of a fancy black-tie event than standalone concert.

For concerts, I think a partnership with a dance school or other dance group is viable and brings the dancers + friends/family to the gig. They get the benefit of a live band, I think the band also enjoys playing for dancers so it’s a win-win.

Another option, worth a try, is to make it free entry with a cup of tea and slice of cake or glass of Prosecco included, then ask for donations at the exit. Even if the refreshments cost the band say $1-2 per head, it’s a relatively small investment.

The big band I play with partnered with the local Foundation For The Arts. They provide us with rehearsal and storage space at their downtown Cultural Arts Center, and in exchange we put on quarterly concerts. Admission is free and folks bring food and libations from nearby downtown restaurants. Usually it's SRO at these gigs. Attached photos from last nigh's "Swinging 60s" show.

officermayo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:53 pm The big band I play with partnered with the local Foundation For The Arts. They provide us with rehearsal and storage space at their downtown Cultural Arts Center, and in exchange we put on quarterly concerts. Admission is free and folks bring food and libations from nearby downtown restaurants. Usually it's SRO at these gigs. Attached photos from last nigh's "Swinging 60s" show.

That sounds like a great deal for all parties.

I've seen that sort of thing work really well in several instances -- up to the point that (for one reason or another) the management of the "arts center" (or similar organization) changes, and a decades-long relationship is just tossed out the window because the new management wants to "go in a different direction" (often this is a kind of career move of the new management and may not reflect feeling of the community at large). It depends very much on a continuing commitment of the "community" (which often bottom-line's into the local government, to at least some degree) to support such "partnerships".

It's great to have that kind of "sustaining" relationship, but I don't think a band should depend on it solely for their performance opportunities and come to take it for granted. Any band should have an active effort to find multiple venues in which to perform.

I've also tried to get a band to regularly seek support from large corporations/businesses in the community -- who often are quite open to at least an annual (or perhaps "continuing") "sponsorship". But community bands tend not to have management (or membership) with an interest or skills in pursuing such an active approach.

Delfeayo Marsalis is touring his Uptown Orchestra across the country. 1,200 tickets sold in our small town of San Luis Obispo. No star vocalists. 15 piece. Loved the layout on a large stage. 5 spaced saxes seated in front row, 3 trombones and 4 trumpets well spaced and standing in second row, drummer & bass recessed in back stage left, well behind the pianist. Audience of all ages happy to say.

How to get butts in seats? Well, answering for a "stage" big band and not a "dance band," do this:

Be a big name. Or be a fantastic band with great musicians and a residency (or a reputation).