TromboneChat

Is this topic kind of like the Ignoble Prizes, in that it first makes you laugh and then makes you think?

The difference between Bb and A# is the context in which the note is presented. It's a "spelling" convention that helps musicians understand the harmonic and melodic role the note is providing at the moment.

e.g., We're playing a tune in A with a I-VI-ii-V turnaround. The VI chord (let's make it an F#7b9) contains an A# in context. It's better to think of it as an A# because that note is a leading tone to B. There are good arguments to be made that notating a melodic line for a musician to play with a Bb might read easier than an A#, but that's going to again depend on the context of the line and whether it makes it easier or harder to sight read. You don't necessarily have to have every accidental match the harmonic context for the 3rd trombonist or whatever, it's more about making the part easier to play.

Yes, we can discuss the specific intonation adjustments, but assuming that we're playing on a piano it's going to sound exactly the same.

As an aside, I play regularly with a self-taught guitarist. He thinks in terms of playing in the keys of A# and D#, even though I tease him about that. Imagine having to sight read a part notated in the key of A#.

Dave

Wilktone wrote: ↑Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:13 am As an aside, I play regularly with a self-taught guitarist. He thinks in terms of playing in the keys of A# and D#, even though I tease him about that. Imagine having to sight read a part notated in the key of A#.

Dave

I had a friend who played trumpet and was obsessed with Herb Alpert. He had no musical theory at all and I'm not sure he knew trumpet music was in Bb.

But he patiently transcribed some Herb Alpert albums, including the guitar parts, all in Bb.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:13 am As an aside, I play regularly with a self-taught guitarist. He thinks in terms of playing in the keys of A# and D#, even though I tease him about that. Imagine having to sight read a part notated in the key of A#.

Dave

Hmmm? I really like to read music in the "opposite key." For some examples, I regularly switch pieces in G major in G-flat major, and pieces in B-flat major in B major. I usually max out with turning C major into C-flat major (7 flats) or C# major (7 sharps). Your proposed key of A# major sounds like a great mental exercise! A# major would 10 sharps....everything would be sharp except that F, C and G would be double sharp. I would definitely need two cups of coffee to start the day off in that key!

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musicofnote wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:34 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:53 pm Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?

My neurologist has a A=220 tuning fork to measure surface sensitivity of my legs and feet due to my neuropathy. Huge thing. I have a A=442 one somewhere at home - have no idea when or why I got it.

That seems unusual to me. Most doctor's office (and physictist's) use C = 256 as a standard, which makes A a long way from 440. I worked out what it would be once but can't remember.

I have a G 384 Hz tuning fork I found at a thrift shop, again that's not to the 440 standard. (It's for summoning cosmic energy. New age stuff.)

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harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:53 pm Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?

Yes, mostly for otology and neurology exams, occasionally for orthopedic assessment and sometimes just for fun. It has been difficult to maintain a useful set do to "borrowing" since others do find tuning forks useful.

A special thanks to Maximilien for expressing so eloquently what I would have failed to say.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:53 pm Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?

I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:53 pm Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?

When I was in school, the oboe players were still using tuning forks (mostly) to hear the "A" that they gave to the orchestra for tuning. Portable electronic tuners were fairly new at the time, and nobody was going to be carrying around one of those giant Conn strobotuners.

We also had to all get an "A 440" tuning fork for ear training class. When the teacher would give you an exercise to "sight-sing", you were expected to use your tuning fork to find an A, and then find the first note of the exercise by calculating the interval from that A to whatever was printed on the page in front of you. Then you would start singing it, calculating the intervals as you went.

The teacher also told us to strike the tuning fork and hold it up to our ear multiple times per day to help build a stronger sense of relative pitch. I'm sure there were other factors helping on this front, but I did find that my relative pitch did improve quite a bit in that year or two of study, and that I started to instantly recognize when a given tuning note was higher or lower than 440.

Obviously, tuners and apps on phones have replaced the tuning fork, but it had its use at the time. Timpani and Harp players used them for tuning their instruments too back then.

Jim Scott

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:52 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:53 pm Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?

I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.

Oh, I hope not.

I just grabbed my calculator. (An old HP15C I used in college in the late 80s. You can't buy them anymore. RPN of course.)

According to it,

IF G = 384, then A = 431.0254. Also,

If C= 256, then G = 383.5666. And,

If A = 440, then G = 391.9954.


(caveat: all calculations assume equal temperament)

The purpose of a G 384 tuning fork is not to tune an instrument, but to heal any and all known ailments, mental and physical.
https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:17 pm The purpose of a G384 tuning fork is not to tune an instrument, but to heal any and all known ailments, mental and physical.
https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php

I think I feel an ailment coming on.
Can't wait to get my set of C&G Body Tuners (C256cps & G384cps) so I can be "sound-healed!"

Of course C = 256 is a God-given frequency. (2^8)

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:17 pm

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:52 pm

I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.

Oh, I hope not.

I just grabbed my calculator. (An old HP15C I used in college in the late 80s. You can't buy them anymore. RPN of course.)

According to it,

IF G = 384, then A = 431.0254. Also,

If C= 256, then G = 383.5666. And,

If A = 440, then G = 391.9954.


(caveat: all calculations assume equal temperament)

The purpose of a G 384 tuning fork is not to tune an instrument, but to heal any and all known ailments, mental and physical.
https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php

Once more I have been gently corrected by TC. The love is palpable.

Isn't the best way to tune a banjo is with a chainsaw?
[/quote]

I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.
[/quote]

Savio wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 1:35 pm Maybe more interesting as a theory? Composing and writing music. Playing? It's the same note on a piano. For us sliding through the life it can depend on chord and melodic function. For me it's best just to feel the function of the note wherever it shows up. And hope I hit the 3rd position

Leif

Yes, when I look at my piano Bb an A# are the same and when I press the key that produce Bb and think of Bb it sounds exactly like Bb and if I think A# it also sound like Bb. What if we just get rid of two thirds of all notes? Life would be a lot easier. No more a#

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 5:52 pm

Yes, when I look at my piano Bb an A# are the same and when I press the key that produce Bb and think of Bb it sounds exactly like Bb and if I think A# it also sound like Bb. What if we just get rid of two thirds of all notes? Life would be a lot easier. No more a#

/Tom

You will drive all the Gee-tar players (and many of the orchestral string players) nuts. They think in terms of shortening strings, not lengthening them.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:42 pm You will drive all the Gee-tar players (and many of the orchestral string players) nuts. They think in terms of shortening strings, not lengthening them.

Not to mention many woodwind players. Here's a quote from a sax player: "I guess it is just my brain, but a # presents no problems when I read music ( kindergarten level ), but a ‘b’ stops me dead and makes me consciously readjust, it just seems so unnecessary to have both formats."

Hmmm

BrassSection wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:16 am Hmmm


8071173E-DF55-42E0-9948-DB27407F0D22.jpeg

(in case anybody couldn't get it, the music is Beethoven's "Fur Elise")

Not to mention the D# notes…

I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.

The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.

VJOFan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:05 am I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.

The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.

Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:09 am

VJOFan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:05 am I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.

The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.

Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)

Or, print it in C, and instruct everyone to pull their tuning slide out. Way out.

The problem for us really goes back to our Arban's. Arban wrote exercises between 6 sharps and 6 flats for trumpet. They transposed it to C bass clef without reasoning why the exercises were in the keys they were. As a result we all worked between 4 sharps and 8 flats. So we never got to work in F# and B, but had to cope with Fb and Cb, very rare keys to encounter. At least the Alessi-Bowman edition goes back to the reasonable selection of keys and we work in B and F#, as we should always.

More than that it is the band method books. They all start in concert Bb then go crazy and go to Eb and maybe Ab.

By the time C or G come up, the dye has been cast and flats are normal where as sharps are foreign.

Because of transposition others in the band feel it the exact opposite way

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:09 am

VJOFan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:05 am I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.

The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.

Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)

Not in the least. As players develop they spend years knowing that when they see an A it will either be natural or flat. The same thing occurs with D. And a B is 'always" flat along with E. C's and F's are "always" natural. That means every note in the key signature goes against a player's earliest grade school training.

In Cb it's really just remembering the C and F are contrary to lizard brain grade 5 muscle memory.

The players in this group weren't music majors (play really well but didn't study per se) and so still see music with their public school training.

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Now that we’ve meandered into enharmonic territory…

Do you practice F-sharp and G-flat scales? B and C-flat? C-sharp and D-flat? Do you teach your students the difference?

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 10:38 am Now that we’ve meandered into enharmonic territory…

Do you practice F-sharp and G-flat scales? B and C-flat? C-sharp and D-flat? Do you teach your students the difference?

And of course all the related minor scales too?

I guess I'm lucky. I come from a time in the distant past where we were (or at least I was) forced to learn every scale and to play in every key. We would never dream of transposing the music because we didn't know it. We'd be forced to learn it.

Something tells me these same trombone players would have a stroke if faced with tenor or alto clef, especially in sharp keys!

Ran into a similar issue a few years back. One of the bands I play in got a new Euphonium player. Really nice guy with a degree in music education from Indiana. We had two Euphonium books; one in bass clef and the other with a mixture of bass and treble. Guy couldn't play the treble book. When he had to read a piece in treble I'd switch parts with him (I played 1st Trombone). I had no problem with the treble clef and he aced the bass clef trombone part. Now he's director of the band and doesn't need to deal with the treble clef book any more.

When I play scales in ascending fourths, I mentally add a flat from BB to Db. Then it runs F# to G, followed by C and F. C has no sharps or flats. Db has five flats. F# and B have five sharps. That is the way I would teach it. On a day when some break were required, I might have the student write out a scale Cb or B# so that know what it would be. Such keys might be required for studio players or some music schools. I would be surprised (flabbergasted) to encounter Cb on a cruise ship chart. It is akin to jazz breaking the rule for accidentals be sharps for follow on ascending notes, and flats for descending. I would rather read Chaucer in old English (potentially of some value) and Galileo’s calculus studies (probably of no value). Writers who use the key of Cb (and write charts that are harder to read than a Michelin road map for Switzerland) are possessed by demons. And yes, I am cold blooded and swat flies with my tongue.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 1:10 pm When he had to read a piece in treble I'd switch parts with him (I played 1st Trombone). I had no problem with the treble clef and he aced the bass clef trombone part. Now he's director of the band and doesn't need to deal with the treble clef book any more.

You are a Mensch among Mensches, Bruce.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 1:10 pm ...Guy couldn't play the treble book...

Now he's director of the band and doesn't need to deal with the treble clef book any more.

Does he have to read scores?

Conductors are like studio players. Once the hear the first note, whatever key it is in, the score is reference only, unless they hear a wrong note.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:45 pm I guess I'm lucky. I come from a time in the distant past where we were (or at least I was) forced to learn every scale and to play in every key. We would never dream of transposing the music because we didn't know it. We'd be forced to learn it.

Something tells me these same trombone players would have a stroke if faced with tenor or alto clef, especially in sharp keys!

Me too. Of course we had to learn every key and every scale, and all the C-clefs .

/Tom

I learned about all of the clefs when I asked my teacher (a TV studio trumpet player) about transposing. He showed me treble, bass, baritone, and 4 C clefs to make any adjustment I needed. Never got really comfortable on them until much later.

I was baritone bass clef in high school. Guy beside me was treble clef…looked over at his music day and thought I’d give it a try, within 3 days I was good on bass and treble. Fast forward 25 years and son forced into trumpet first year in school due to not having any baritones available. Treble clef came in handy. Fast forward another 25 years, put together a few ensembles with volunteer players. Trumpet player having problems with one song, I was on trombone, but asked if it would help if I played along with her. After an affirmative response I proceeded to play the trumpet part along with her on my trombone. Problem solved. Bottom line, you never know when something you didn’t even know why you learned it may come in handy. Sorta like wandering thru a tool department in a store looking for something you didn’t know you needed!

Knowing scales big help too. Sometimes key is changed at the last minute for a singer. No problem there jumping around on Bb horns, but only playing improv from a chord chart and key is changed transposing in my head for the French horn, now THAT makes me think!