TromboneChat

Quote from: BillO on May 18, 2016, 06:06AMI'm sorry to hear that's the case in the US, but I did say under a union. 

Apologies; I failed to notice you're Canadian.  That's a bit different.

It's not just the unions, though.  All those automotive jobs that went north were "good" UAW jobs too.

And, I have to say that I take exception to the notion that assembly line jobs are low-stress positions.  Far from it.

QuoteWhere's Jimmy Hoffa when you need him?

Please don't.  Hoffa was an out-and-out racketeer who did more than his part to contribute to the failure of the labor movement in the US.  I really can't adequately express my opinion in a "family-friendly" way.


Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on May 17, 2016, 10:32PMIt blows my mind that people with very little knowledge of someone else's job has the nerve to say they have it easy.

At least folks around here can imagine what it's like with some small degree of accuracy.  I think the average Joe sees orchestral musicians as anachronistic sponges with six-figure salaries for six hours' "work" a week (and never mind that the musicians he likes tend to be multi-millionaires).  He probably also believes that symphonies are a huge drain on public resources.

To say it makes it difficult to garner popular support in a labor dispute is an understatement.

Quote from: Eastcheap on May 18, 2016, 04:57PMIt's not just the unions, though.  All those automotive jobs that went north were "good" UAW jobs too.
I didn't get to Canada until 1969.  By that time most of the jobs in the automotive sector that were going to move here had already.  GM, Ford, Chrysler and AMC all had big plants here and the union in place was the UAW.  It did not become the CAW until the mid '80s.  So that all happened with the blessings of the UAW.  There was a brief expansion of the auto-sector here through the '90s, but other than the huge AMC/Chrysler plant in Brampton, most of that was the US auto-makers trying to bring imports on board.  It was easier for them to do that through Canada than directly into the US.  However, by the mid-90s things began to change rapidly.  Now that huge Chrysler pant lies empty.  More than half the GM capacity is gone and 3/4 of the Ford capacity is gone.  All moved back to the US.  Luckily for Canadian auto workers Honda and Toyota came aboard to pick up a small fraction of the slack.  But none of this has anything to do with Orchestras.

Quote from: Eastcheap on May 18, 2016, 04:57PMAnd, I have to say that I take exception to the notion that assembly line jobs are low-stress positions.  Far from it.
Sorry for that, but we could debate this.  I did 3 years on an assembly line, and I have to tell you, the stress I felt there was no match for the stress I felt when I responsible for a staff of 80 people and a $150Million country quota.

Quote from: Eastcheap on May 18, 2016, 04:57PMHoffa was an out-and-out racketeer who did more than his part to contribute to the failure of the labor movement in the US.Again, sorry, but that is kind of what I meant.  I wonder what emoticon I could have used to convey that?  Sometimes obvious is insufficient.

Quote from: Eastcheap on May 18, 2016, 04:57PMAt least folks around here can imagine what it's like with some small degree of accuracy.  I think the average Joe sees orchestral musicians as anachronistic sponges with six-figure salaries for six hours' "work" a week (and never mind that the musicians he likes tend to be multi-millionaires).  He probably also believes that symphonies are a huge drain on public resources.
It's always been this way though.  The symphony has been the darling of the 'cultured - educated - rich' of this world.  It usually (but not exclusively) appeals to people that have any 2 of those, ahhh - 'qualities'.  But folk music, and I use that term very broadly to include jazz, rock, blues, C&W, etc..., is always what has appealed to the other 90% of the world.  It is difficult for Tchaikovsky to compete with someone that expresses everyday life in their words and music.  He may have indeed written about it, but it does not come across that way to those that have not been given the chance to be introduced to it.

Quote from: Eastcheap on May 18, 2016, 04:57PMTo say it makes it difficult to garner popular support in a labor dispute is an understatement.
With most feeling they are under-rewarded for their efforts, you would think this would be quite the opposite, but it is generally the case: symphony orchestras, postal workers, longshoremen, whatever...  No one wants see anyone get a raise unless they do too (I guess).

I always dreamed about a work in a symphony. I can't understand how it would be pathetic? It's a dream. Still I get some few chances to play with pro orchestras, but I was never at the level to win an audition.

 I learned one thing from my father, and my grandfather, always do the best in your work. No matter what it is. Set the proud in doing a good job, no matter what it is. It's  never pathetic, we decide our self what work attitude we choose.

Stress? Stress can be both good and bad. Stress is everywhere and can be like excitement, what environments expects, what we self expect, but we self decide how much stressed we get. Realistic goals. Being happy if we do our best.

Music is a little about stress because it demands something different from day to day. But it's good stress that make our concentration, adrenaline, feelings, brain work at a high level.

It's never pathetic wherever we play or whatever level. Or even whatever daily work we have. We decide...

Leif

Quote from: savio on May 19, 2016, 01:57PMsnip--
I can't understand how it would be pathetic? It's a dream.
--snip
The word "living" is equivalent to "income." It is sad but true that many very fine players may end up in smaller, less well funded organization barely earning a living wage.

Quote from: savio on May 19, 2016, 01:57PMI always dreamed about a work in a symphony. I can't understand how it would be pathetic? It's a dream. Still I get some few chances to play with pro orchestras, but I was never at the level to win an audition.

 I learned one thing from my father, and my grandfather, always do the best in your work. No matter what it is. Set the proud in doing a good job, no matter what it is. It's  never pathetic, we decide our self what work attitude we choose.

Stress? Stress can be both good and bad. Stress is everywhere and can be like excitement, what environments expects, what we self expect, but we self decide how much stressed we get. Realistic goals. Being happy if we do our best.

Music is a little about stress because it demands something different from day to day. But it's good stress that make our concentration, adrenaline, feelings, brain work at a high level.

It's never pathetic wherever we play or whatever level. Or even whatever daily work we have. We decide...

Leif

It can be the best job on the planet. I love going in and playing every day. It can, just like everything in life, get a little boring or stressful. While it is a dream to play and I personally love to play, there are still some days where it is more of a job than a passion. It may be because other people aren't concentrating or the music is bad/boring or the interpretation doesn't suit your taste or you are not playing your best or you're hungover or just can't be bothered... we try and keep this to a minimum but we are all human.

Rant on...

***

Whether you believe symphony musicians are paid too much or too little, like neurosurgeons and star athletes, is a matter of perspective. Are you in a professional orchestra or a regional orchestra? Do you like your section mates? Is the musical director a consensus and team builder, or an egotistical martinet? How resilient are you to change and adversity?

While it would be nice to be compensated for the practice it took to get to a professional job, that's not feasible. Time devoted to practice in any endeavor is not a guarantee of compensation. Many adolescents spend hours throwing baseballs, cricket balls, shooting hoops, throwing footballs, running laps, lifting weights, etc., and only a very few are ever compensated during their lifetime. If they are ever paid for that practice time, it's later in life.

Manufacturing jobs require people to do the same thing over and over. They practice on the job, and many of them become experts. Why shouldn't they be compensated more? Because the job isn't perceived as being high prestige or importance, and it's generally not repsonsible for much money.

Traditional economic theory assumes that we are rational actors, and that people are paid according to certain observable laws that can be described mathematically. However, a newer generation of economists are leaning towards the idea that people really are not very rational, and they are paid in relation to two very broad, largely undefinable, principles: society's perception of the prestige or importance of the job, and the job's responsibility for money.

CEO's, stockbrokers and lawyers are often paid a lot of money because they fit both criteria. They are responsible for large amounts of money, and Western society places high importance on them. Neurosurgeons are paid lots of money because it's prestigious and they are indirectly responsible for a lot of money. Professional athletes are paid a lot of money based purely on prestige. Other than themselves, they have little responsibility for money.

Musicians can be paid well, and some are paid excessivley. Some examples: rockstars are paid excessively (prestige), soloists are paid fairly well (prestige), and steady symphony musicians, most of whom who are in large metropolitan areas. Compensation for symphony musicians is very complicated with many factors: region, funding, contracts, attendance (very little), grants, gifts, endowments, etc., many of which are arbitrary.

Are we upset that a few musicians are paid so well? Are we upset that most musicians are paid relatively little? Are we upset that some lawyers, CEO's, athletes, are paid extraordinarily excessively? Yes, yes and yes. Is there increased stress with greater responsibility for money? Yes, and if you aren't stressed by it then you might have the makings of a sociopath. Are people stressed, bored and unhappy when they do the same thing over and over again, whether it's installing widgets or playing Overture XYZ for 1,000th time? Yes and yes.

Job satisfaction is falsely perceived to be related to compensation, but a lot of studies reflect that isn't so. Personally, I'm much happier in my job today as a counselor where I earn about 1/2 of what I did ten years ago working in an insurance company. I'm less satisfied with my musical life because I don't play as much. But I knew back then I was dying a long, slow, soul-sucking death. Does my increased job satisfaction make up for my decreased musical time? No, but it's not a trade-off. It's life. When I do play gigs, pick-up quartets, etc., it's so much more fun and enjoyable than when I had more money and I was playing a lot of gigs.

***

Sorry for the rant. I know many of you will disagree with what I've written. To me, the big picture is much more important that the details when we're talking about economics, philosophy, and world-building. 

Quote from: sabutin on May 17, 2016, 09:37AM A brass player who is the equivalent of say a great surgeon or lawyer has I am sure spent equivalent numbers of hours learning how to play like hat. Why not be paid equivalent amounts?

S.

Because society and the free market puts different values on different jobs.

Sometimes there are reasons. Medical experts earn relatively much in reflection of the lengthy training and the life and death nature of what they do. Some sportsmen earn colossal amounts. If I was getting punched in the face by Manny Pacquiao for a job, I'd want to be paid a lot too. But golf? Baseball?

On the other hand, soldiers don't get paid a lot for getting shot at. Care assistants for the aged don't get a lot. Schoolteachers aren't well paid. These are also important jobs.

Back to the slightly whiney-sounding musicians in the article. At one extreme we have cultural dictation: society is given, at its own expense through taxes, publicly funded arts because it's good for us according to some. The problem with that is a basic lack of respect for the freedom of the individual.

At the other extreme is a totally commercial free market. The trouble with that is things like libraries or symphony orchestras are hard to run as a commercial concern because of that lack of value placed on them. But if we take a cent from everyone, economies of scale allow us to maintain these facilities and have some higher purpose and endeavour to our existence beyond subsistence.

My personal position is in the middle, and I should also say I totally appreciate the picture Sam paints of the challenges of the job. I think it's very important that artistic activity happens a lot and is supported with public funds. This is because it gives opportunities to people to experience great things through art, feel inspired etc. Anyone who's done a children's concert knows this. But there's an obligation that comes with the funding. The art has to be open and accessible to the paying public, which is everyone. There are all sorts of ways to do that. Sitting in the orchestra green room griping about the schedule isn't one of them.

Quote from: savio on May 19, 2016, 01:57PMI always dreamed about a work in a symphony. I can't understand how it would be pathetic? It's a dream.

Something I've learned over many jobs over many years... job happiness is not so much what you are doing, but who you are doing it with.

We might think that some task is a "good job" but if you are working with toxic co-workers or bad managers, it's not a good job anymore.

My dream job was not to be a trombone player but to be an animator and eventually I got to do that. The art of that is great but the art isn't the whole job. When you are doing that for money there are a whole set of people who want specific things for their money at specific times and if they are not good at defining their needs or don't understand what is and isn't practical, it becomes an unhappy job.

Every job is like that. A task plus the people you do it for.

There's a reason they call it work.

Quote from: robcat2075 on May 20, 2016, 10:55AMSomething I've learned over many jobs over many years... job happiness is not so much what you are doing, but who you are doing it with.

We might think that some task is a "good job" but if you are working with toxic co-workers or bad managers, it's not a good job anymore.

My dream job was not to be a trombone player but to be an animator and eventually I got to do that. The art of that is great but the art isn't the whole job. When you are doing that for money there are a whole set of people who want specific things for their money at specific times and if they are not good at defining their needs or don't understand what is and isn't practical, it becomes an unhappy job.

Every job is like that. A task plus the people you do it for.




100% 

Quote from: sonicsilver on May 20, 2016, 09:39AM
My personal position is in the middle, and I should also say I totally appreciate the picture Sam paints of the challenges of the job. I think it's very important that artistic activity happens a lot and is supported with public funds. This is because it gives opportunities to people to experience great things through art, feel inspired etc. Anyone who's done a children's concert knows this. But there's an obligation that comes with the funding. The art has to be open and accessible to the paying public, which is everyone. There are all sorts of ways to do that. Sitting in the orchestra green room griping about the schedule isn't one of them.

I agree totally with this. We talk about this often in our orchestra. How can we connect with our audience and actually be meaningful to the city as a whole. One thing I do notice about Germany is the pride that cities have in their culture, the city refers to 'their' orchestra in conversation and assume ownership and therefore pride in it. As the members of the orchestra we need to connect with them through not only great music and programming but also at a personal level, whether through education programs, meet and greets, chamber and out-of-house concerts and a general presence at the community level.

That's one of the BIG difference between the US (and Australia to a large extent) and Europe. Culture is very important to Europeans, including music, art, architecture etc. Where as the US and Australia is sports oriented. For example, every night on the news here there is a solid 15 to 20 minutes of sports "News", talking about a lot of "stuff" that really isn't "that" important. Rarely do we see anything related to arts in general....

M

There may be a lot going on in the UK but public attitudes to the arts are more American than European.... you get no respect here for being a performing musician... quite the opposite.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on May 28, 2016, 03:39AMThere may be a lot going on in the UK but public attitudes to the arts are more American than European.... you get no respect here for being a performing musician... quite the opposite.

Chris Stearn
Why is that? Is it because European orchestras get more government funding?

Quote from: patrickosmith on May 28, 2016, 03:54AMWhy is that? Is it because European orchestras get more government funding?

Yup. In Germany at least. Musicians are (generally) employed by the city itself. I think the idea of the orchestra belonging to the people of the city brings a sense of pride a respect for the orchestra. Even those who do not regularly attend seem to feel that the orchestra is an important part of the community.
That being said, there is still a constant threat of funding cuts and orchestra closing, combining and positions not being replaced. SWR Baden-Baden/Freiburg and SWR Stuttgart are combining now to save on costs. The orchestra is now HUGE!

Speaking of costs, I heard a documentary on the radio a little while ago. It was about the financial difficulties of an orchestra in the British Isles. They had a budget deficit of about £300k.

Apart from the playing members of the orchestra, they had 19 members of administrative staff. I couldn't think what all these workers might be doing. To run an orchestra you would need roughly the following

2 porters
1 secretary
1 accountant
2 orchestral managers
1 marketing/advertising person
1 part-time IT person
1 librarian
1 part-time chief executive

That's only 9 people (8+two halves). What are the other 10 doing? Assuming those extra 10 get around £25-30k/annum salary, that represents the budget deficit. Problem solved.

Quote from: sonicsilver on May 28, 2016, 04:32AMSpeaking of costs, I heard a documentary on the radio a little while ago. It was about the financial difficulties of an orchestra in the British Isles. They had a budget deficit of about £300k.

Apart from the playing members of the orchestra, they had 19 members of administrative staff. I couldn't think what all these workers might be doing. To run an orchestra you would need roughly the following

2 porters
1 secretary
1 accountant
2 orchestral managers
1 marketing/advertising person
1 part-time IT person
1 librarian
1 part-time chief executive

That's only 9 people (8+two halves). What are the other 10 doing? Assuming those extra 10 get around £25-30k/annum salary, that represents the budget deficit. Problem solved.


Yup. They're called "Arts Administrators" and most of them are about as useful as ticks on the backside of a moose. The whole culture is being bureaucratized by parasites. They suck the money up and try to run the artists without a clue about the importance of the product or the process through which  artists actually create art or craftspeople produce craft. Mao Zedong's "Cultural Revolution" was about these kinds of people on all levels of the society. It didn't work out as planned (What does?), but the idea was good. Take these fools out of the system and make them learn how to grow corn.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...



Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Reince Priebus, political administrators who head the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Same breed, different moose. They're everywhere, and if you want to know why the U.S. is in such big trouble, you need look no further. Are you involved in a school anywhere in the U.S.? The same kinds of people are messing up our academic system as well. Top to bottom, Harvard to pre-school.

Bet on it.

Trump wants to deport some folks?

That's where to start. Send all the administrators to Kansas to help with the corn crop.

Corn. It's what they do.

Later...

S.

Quote from: sonicsilver on May 28, 2016, 04:32AMSpeaking of costs, I heard a documentary on the radio a little while ago. It was about the financial difficulties of an orchestra in the British Isles. They had a budget deficit of about £300k.

Apart from the playing members of the orchestra, they had 19 members of administrative staff. I couldn't think what all these workers might be doing. To run an orchestra you would need roughly the following

2 porters
1 secretary
1 accountant
2 orchestral managers
1 marketing/advertising person
1 part-time IT person
1 librarian
1 part-time chief executive

That's only 9 people (8+two halves). What are the other 10 doing? Assuming those extra 10 get around £25-30k/annum salary, that represents the budget deficit. Problem solved.

I don't think you'd need a full-time librarian or accountant either.  Change that to 1 librarian/book keeper. You'd only need the accountant come year end.  Use and outside firm for that.

Quote from: BillO on May 28, 2016, 08:41AMI don't think you'd need a full-time librarian or accountant either.  Change that to 1 librarian/book keeper. You'd only need the accountant come year end.  Use and outside firm for that.

The skills required for a librarian and a bookkeeper are quite different.

Also, I can tell you that a librarian's job for an orchestra that does more than 1 concert a month is a full time job.

Quote from: BGuttman on May 28, 2016, 08:57AMThe skills required for a librarian and a bookkeeper are quite different.

Also, I can tell you that a librarian's job for an orchestra that does more than 1 concert a month is a full time job.

It seems really easy. If IMSLP has 90% of what your orchestra needs to play, you could probably print all the free music for that month out in one weekend, and when the new non PD music is ordered or rented, you hand out the parts (and make copies , because I can't imagine a music Librarian not secretly making a backup)

How is that a full time job? Seems like a perfect bonus stipend for the last chair third violinist. "Oh what, you don't want to do this additional duty? I thought you wanted to be in the New York Phil. We can always find someone else... oh, you'll do it? Great. You'll only have to do it until you move up a chair."

Eliminate an entire salary position and use free music that's already in a printable database. Budget solved.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 28, 2016, 09:18AMIt seems really easy. If IMSLP has 90% of what your orchestra needs to play, you could probably print all the free music for that month out in one weekend, and when the new non PD music is ordered or rented, you hand out the parts (and make copies , because I can't imagine a music Librarian not secretly making a backup)

How is that a full time job? Seems like a perfect bonus stipend for the last chair third violinist. "Oh what, you don't want to do this additional duty? I thought you wanted to be in the New York Phil. We can always find someone else... oh, you'll do it? Great. You'll only have to do it until you move up a chair."

Eliminate an entire salary position and use free music that's already in a printable database. Budget solved.

IMSLP is a great research reference, usually supported by music librarians who are often trained musicologists. It would be the same as using wikipedia as a source for every degree instead of text books.

A librarian tracks down scores, parts, editions, deals with performance rights, creates rehearsal materials (or new work performance parts), is in constant communication with the musical direction in regards to orchestration and editions. In some orchestras they will also copy over the concertmaster's (or conductors) bowing and markings and deal with issues such as page turns, rebinding of parts etc.
On top of this, they get the music you are playing on the stand each night (or get the music to the stage managers who get it on to the stage).

While much of that music is PD, the editions on IMSLP aren't necessarily.

For example, You can't just print out the Kalmus edition of something because it's PD. Kalmus went to great expense having that typeset - you're still violating copyright. You could just put the whole thing in Finale if it's PD though... that'd be substantially more work.

You should hang out with some Librarians some time... you don't seem to understand what all their job entails.

Quote from: Exzaclee on May 28, 2016, 09:37AMWhile much of that music is PD, the editions on IMSLP aren't necessarily.

For example, You can't just print out the Kalmus edition of something because it's PD. Kalmus went to great expense having that typeset - you're still violating copyright. You could just put the whole thing in Finale if it's PD though... that'd be substantially more work.

You should hang out with some Librarians some time... you don't seem to understand what all their job entails.

I would disagree with the Kalmus point. Other publishers do take feedback from librarians and try to provide great materials... Kalmus... well... that is another topic.

Quote from: Exzaclee on May 28, 2016, 09:37AMWhile much of that music is PD, the editions on IMSLP aren't necessarily.

For example, You can't just print out the Kalmus edition of something because it's PD. Kalmus went to great expense having that typeset - you're still violating copyright. You could just put the whole thing in Finale if it's PD though... that'd be substantially more work.

You should hang out with some Librarians some time... you don't seem to understand what all their job entails.

Many Kalmus editions are actually in the public domain. In fact, some are so old that they no longer bother putting a copyright notice in the music, even though it was printed this year. You cannot renew copyright indefinitely, even if your company keeps printing that edition.  Some editions on IMSLP are old enough to be PD, and others failed to file a copyright or label the music properly during the period (1923 through 1977) before copyright was automatically granted upon creation. You certainly can just print them out and do whatever you want with editions that are themselves PD. It doesn't matter how much effort the typesetter put in to making it look nice if he forgot to put a copyright notice on the music during that period and the edition is now PD.

I am posing an idea for saving money, and you are finding exceptions to the rule. Of course, you cannot use the 2006 mozart transcriptions on IMSLP that were created with Sibelius and include a license limiting performance  (though many of these freebie editions actually include a license that let's you do whatever you want with it).

However, you can use the Kalmus editions from the 30's that failed to mark, renew, or otherwise follow proper copyright procedures, as well as the perfectly legible and sometimes original versions from before the cutoff date that makes the edition public domain.

For a great orchestra with a real budget, a librarian will procure and edit far better sheet music than IMSLP. For an orchestra that's described above and is 500K USD in the red, yeah, maybe let's start using some free stuff and let the musicians edit their own parts.

it's about a specific edition...

you can't copyright beethoven's 5th (although you can drink it, yuk yuk)

you can, however, copyright your edition of it. that's why you can't just copy everything you buy in a music store. much of that music in the sheet music room is in PD but the specific editions are not.

check copyright notices on anything you print out. something being on IMSLP is no guarantee that it's legal to print.

Quote from: Exzaclee on May 28, 2016, 10:04AMit's about a specific edition...

you can't copyright beethoven's 5th (although you can drink it, yuk yuk)

you can, however, copyright your edition of it. that's why you can't just copy everything you buy in a music store. much of that music in the sheet music room is in PD but the specific editions are not.

check copyright notices on anything you print out. something being on IMSLP is no guarantee that it's legal to print.

So the Kalmus edition of XYZ Beethoven printed in 1936 without a copyright notice (just like almost every Kalmus edition I've seen) is somehow exempt from the laws that say that THAT SPECIFIC EDITION is in the public domain due to failure to put a copyright notice on it?

I completely understand the point you are trying to make, but I think you need to look into copyright laws a little bit more. Even editions that come after original printings can become so old, or they failed to put a copyright notice, that that EDITION becomes public domain. Most of IMSLP is this, along with the wannabe transcriptions done since IMSLP went online that appear below the pure PD pdfs.

Also, on a side note, many of these companies put bogus claims on works saying that they've renewed copyrights. Blue bells of scotland is one such work. It was never eligible for copyright renewal, and the edition in print today is the same plate as the printing from before 1923. So... go IMSLP!

Kalmus got his start during World War II.  His outfit liberated the Barenreiter publishing company and found hundreds of printing plates.  They were going to throw them out when Kalmus asked for them and was given them.  He returned home with a treasure trove of old music.  Kalmus was careless in not proofing the plates and some errors were let through; hence the denigration "it's a Kalmus" for music with publishing errors.

There are lots of editions of different old works.  We just did a Haydn symphony and our Music Director insisted on the Robbins-Landon version.  It's different from IMSLP.  If I am going to use IMSLP for any music I have to get permission from the Music Director.

Since we don't do weekly concerts I am not in such a panic to get music organized, but the New York Philharmonic does and a week is a tough period to prepare 3 pieces with 104 parts to some (and no less than 85); make sure the parts are in usable condition (they get ratty and tattered pretty fast; string parts especially it seems); get them in folders or on stands (we have the players collect their parts from a file box with one folder for each musician).  After the concert you have to make sure all parts were returned, chase after the ones who "forgot", put the parts back in score order, file away.  And for a Pops concert with as many as 20 different pieces the problem is 8 times harder.

An orchestra librarian (or 2) is a full-time position. Much of their job is putting bowings into all the string parts, which is very time consuming. Also, much of the music that an orchestra needs is still rental, so ordering/distributing/marking all of that takes time, and has to be done on a schedule that gets it there in time for the players to have copies to prepare. Some conductors send their own parts to a piece they are conducting, because they wish to use a specific edition, or because they have marked certain dynamic/articulation changes that they want the orchestra to use, so that changes the timeframe for the librarians to do their work.

The other problem with the assumptions of people suggesting that this isn't a full-time job, is that orchestras don't necessarily do a single program for the week. That may have been more the norm 25 years ago, but my orchestra does as many as 4 different programs in the same week, in multiple venues. The librarians are integral in having all of that music ready in time, in the correct place, etc. Add the music for auditions to the mix as well. It is a big job.

Now accountants - that is another story!

Jim Scott
Calgary Philharmonic

We can all agree that the accounting should be outsourced to the MCP from Tron.

Quote from: Rockymountaintrombone on May 28, 2016, 10:41AMAn orchestra librarian (or 2) is a full-time position. Much of their job is putting bowings into all the string parts, which is very time consuming. Also, much of the music that an orchestra needs is still rental, so ordering/distributing/marking all of that takes time, and has to be done on a schedule that gets it there in time for the players to have copies to prepare. Some conductors send their own parts to a piece they are conducting, because they wish to use a specific edition, or because they have marked certain dynamic/articulation changes that they want the orchestra to use, so that changes the timeframe for the librarians to do their work.

The other problem with the assumptions of people suggesting that this isn't a full-time job, is that orchestras don't necessarily do a single program for the week. That may have been more the norm 25 years ago, but my orchestra does as many as 4 different programs in the same week, in multiple venues. The librarians are integral in having all of that music ready in time, in the correct place, etc. Add the music for auditions to the mix as well. It is a big job.

Now accountants - that is another story!

Jim Scott
Calgary Philharmonic

Yes, what Jim said.

But my main point was... what could the the other 10 people possibly be doing??? 10 people: that's a whole woodwind section.

You need at least two "shleppers" to move percussion on and off stage, podium, chairs, etc.  I would think for an orchestra like the Boston Symphony you might need 4.

You need a secretary to answer the phone and type correspondence.

You need at least one "wrangler" to keep the guest talent happy -- more like one for each.

A stage manager for each wing to make sure the setup is correct and open and close the shell doors.

One ego to think he runs the place (that's different from the Music Director).

At least one intern to get coffee and do miscellaneous jobs that everybody else can't quite get to.

A Front of House manager to make sure the ushers seat everybody and handle latecomers.

At least one box office worker to handle current and future sales.

At least 2 ticket takers (more like 4)

At least 2 ushers per aisle to help seat the audience.

Book keeper to keep track of the receipts and handle money.  Accountant for long term budgeting (not necessarily full time, but for at least a few months during the planning season).

Grant writer to apply for assistance from businesses and government (these things don't come automatically; you have to justify them).  Can also be the ad manager for the program ads chasing advertisers who are slow to pay.

I could go on...

Quote from: sonicsilver on May 28, 2016, 10:53AMYes, what Jim said.

But my main point was... what could the the other 10 people possibly be doing??? 10 people: that's a whole woodwind section.

I think we're talking about the Ulster orchestra which was tipped over the edge by losing a lot of BBC work and a particularly philistine local council. I"m pretty sure it runs a tight ship, as it's not a rich organisation, so i'd be wary of dissing the supporting cast. Not least of which, they do a lot of community work, all of which needs lots of organising. I'm assuming it also tours locally, which is always a logistical nightmare.

Quote from: blast on May 28, 2016, 03:39AMThere may be a lot going on in the UK but public attitudes to the arts are more American than European.... you get no respect here for being a performing musician... quite the opposite.

Chris Stearn

In an alternative universe, Birmingham famously used Simon Rattle's tenure at the CBSO to raise the profile of the band and the status of the city (which had been pretty bad). Apparently, when they decided to build a proper concert hall, both sides of the council told him that whatever their differences they would agree to get the hall built. It can be done...

Quote from: BGuttman on May 28, 2016, 11:15AMYou need at least two "shleppers" to move percussion on and off stage, podium, chairs, etc.  I would think for an orchestra like the Boston Symphony you might need 4. Yeah, agreed. Tough job.

You need a secretary to answer the phone and type correspondence. Yup.

You need at least one "wrangler" to keep the guest talent happy -- more like one for each. That's the Chief Exec's role or one of the Orchestral managers.

A stage manager for each wing to make sure the setup is correct and open and close the shell doors. Orchestral Managers again, or the porters.

One ego to think he runs the place (that's different from the Music Director). Chief Exec.

At least one intern to get coffee and do miscellaneous jobs that everybody else can't quite get to. No. Or don't pay them.

A Front of House manager to make sure the ushers seat everybody and handle latecomers. Employed by the venue, not the orchestra.

At least one box office worker to handle current and future sales. Ditto

At least 2 ticket takers (more like 4) Ditto

At least 2 ushers per aisle to help seat the audience. Ditto

Book keeper to keep track of the receipts and handle money.  Accountant for long term budgeting (not necessarily full time, but for at least a few months during the planning season). Yup, or it can be contracted out as some have suggested.

Grant writer to apply for assistance from businesses and government (these things don't come automatically; you have to justify them).  Can also be the ad manager for the program ads chasing advertisers who are slow to pay. Chief Exec again (probably a semi-retired successful businessman experienced in such things) in cooperation with the accountant. Ads, Marketing and Social Media is a separate job on its own these days, I think.

I could go on...

Quote from: sf105 on May 28, 2016, 11:21AMI think we're talking about the Ulster orchestra which was tipped over the edge by losing a lot of BBC work and a particularly philistine local council. I"m pretty sure it runs a tight ship, as it's not a rich organisation, so i'd be wary of dissing the supporting cast. Not least of which, they do a lot of community work, all of which needs lots of organising. I'm assuming it also tours locally, which is always a logistical nightmare.

Yes, it was the Ulster Orchestra and I'm still not buying it. Add a community relations officer and a tour logistician and that still leaves 8 extra people on staff. What do they do?

Looks like I started something I had not intended.

I agree an orchestral librarian has a lot to do (depending on the situation), but I am still of the opinion that is a job where much of the work they do might be carried out by the musicians or even eliminated in order to lighten the load.  On the book keeping, this would be by far the smaller part of the job and requires little in the way of real skills.  After all, how many non-sales transactions could and orchestra have in a given month?  The little manufacturing company I own now does about 400-500 a month and the part-time bookkeeper I bring in can get them all entered in 6-8 hours once a month.  Payroll is done by my bank for peanuts.  I send the books to an accountant once a year at year end.

The original problem stated was a UK orchestra going mammalian protuberences-up at the rate of 300K pounds per year.  That might just mean some austerity measures are in order.  Maybe the musicians can pick up their parts at the librarian's office and tote them onto the stage themselves, then return them when they are done.

I still think another person can be cut from that staff list.  Not that I want to put anyone out of a job, but it seems to me that unless drastic measures are taken, some 90+ musicians and 19 administrative staff will be out of their jobs.  That might be worse than having a 80%-20% librarian/bookkeeper.  Or, if you all feel that is absolutely not possible then a 80%-20% secretary/bookkeeper.

At my last job I needed more technical folk even though there was no more budget for headcount, so I got creative.  I gave my secretary the option of taking a layoff package or taking technical training and becoming an IT pre-sales presenter/consultant.  She took the training and became one of my better consultants and after 3 years was earning more than twice as much in salary.  Change and expanding one's horizons are usually good things.  I didn't need a secretary, no matter how nice it was to have one.  I was fully capable of writing my own letters, keeping my own files and making my own appointments.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 28, 2016, 09:18AMIt seems really easy. If IMSLP has 90% of what your orchestra needs to play, you could probably print all the free music for that month out in one weekend, and when the new non PD music is ordered or rented, you hand out the parts (and make copies , because I can't imagine a music Librarian not secretly making a backup)

How is that a full time job? Seems like a perfect bonus stipend for the last chair third violinist. "Oh what, you don't want to do this additional duty? I thought you wanted to be in the New York Phil. We can always find someone else... oh, you'll do it? Great. You'll only have to do it until you move up a chair."

Eliminate an entire salary position and use free music that's already in a printable database. Budget solved.

I just checked IMSLP. 3 works that our orchestra have this season are available and complete. 3 out of  around 40. 7.5%

Leaving librarianship to the musician who draws the short straw sounds like disaster in the making.

In practice the person with the title "librarian" often handles administrative duties beyond the filing of sheets of music.

The orchestra librarian - a career introduction - THE ORCHESTRA LIBRARIAN


Lets say it's only a half time position... what regular orchestra member has that much extra time to do it?

Many community or short season orchestras have someone like that but a full-time orchestra with new programs each week?

All those savings from the useless librarian position could be used to buy harmon mutes for the trombone section if they need them!   

Quote from: BGuttman on May 28, 2016, 11:15AMYou need at least two "shleppers" to move percussion on and off stage, podium, chairs, etc.  I would think for an orchestra like the Boston Symphony you might need 4.
 This is a 40 hour a week job?

Surely there is the 'Friends of the Ulster Orchestra'  or the "ulster Orchestra volunteer auxiliary' or some such organization to help with stuff like this.

In our concert band we have 50 musicians and rehearse every week in a local town hall.  For each rehearsal we schlep carpeting out on the floor for sound absorption, put out chairs for the band and set-up percussion, then take it all off and stow it at the end of the rehearsal.  Usually 4 of us do this each week.  It takes about 20 minutes total.  That's 80 man minutes each week.  Let's be generous and triple it for a symphony orchestra.  So even if the symphony had to do this 5 days out of each week, which I doubt as every symphony I have ever seen has their own practice hall of some sort, then we are talking 10 man-hours a week.  Quite likely this is only required for performances, so if they are a busy orchestra adjust that to two or three times a week and we have 4-6 man-hours a week.

I dunno, this all sounds like too much to me, but of course I could be wrong.

Quote from: BillO on May 28, 2016, 01:51PM  This is a 40 hour a week job?

Surely there is the 'Friends of the Ulster Orchestra'  or the "ulster Orchestra volunteer auxiliary' or some such organization to help with stuff like this.

In our concert band we have 50 musicians and rehearse every week in a local town hall.  For each rehearsal we schlep carpeting out on the floor for sound absorption, put out chairs for the band and set-up percussion, then take it all off and stow it at the end of the rehearsal.  Usually 4 of us do this each week.  It takes about 20 minutes total.  That's 80 man minutes each week.  Let's be generous and triple it for a symphony orchestra.  So even if the symphony had to do this 5 days out of each week, which I doubt as every symphony I have ever seen has their own practice hall of some sort, then we are talking 10 man-hours a week.  Quite likely this is only required for performances, so if they are a busy orchestra adjust that to two or three times a week and we have 4-6 man-hours a week.

I dunno, this all sounds like too much to me, but of course I could be wrong.



Our 'schleppers' are probably two of the most loved in house. They have to set up every rehearsal and performance (40-100 seats, music stands, sound shielding, risers, instrument stands, mute stands, stand lights, harp, timpani, percussion, keyboards and conductors stand. Every show has a slightly different set-up and every musician there has different preferences for stands and chairs. A good orchestral stand/chair also is extremely heavy.
They also have to be on hand to replace lights, move shielding and stands and rebuild set-ups with changing conductor wishes. Something the orchestra cannot do with 5-100k instruments in their hands.
On top of this they spend time repairing chairs and stands, hand out the music (once it has been organised and given out by the librarian). In their office is a list of musicians who require special stands/chairs, stand levels and score requests from conductors, call sheets and rotations so they know what to put out for whom. These guys are the first point of call when something is missing,  a lamp on stage is shining directly in your eyes, the air conditioner is too cold... whatever.
On top of all this, the stage has to look good for the audience.



The stuff that goes on behind the scenes is crazily important. Everyone from the security guard, the schleppers, the librarian, the people that sit behind the computers and phones. Everyone.

All of the statements about waste/too many people upstairs, in orchestra operations is way too general. It's absolutely true - sometimes! It's absolutely false - sometimes! Certainly, some orchestras have had a bad management that allowed for there to be supervisors of supervisors. Others get by on a skeleton crew. The idea that the orchestra players could do much of that themselves can and does work in some semi-professional settings -sometimes, even in situations that are fully professional when the salary for playing really doesn't come close to covering the cost of living in that particular city. There's a cost for that, however, in the time it takes away from proper practice/preparation.

Orchestra schedules have become busier over the years, and weeks with multiple programs, new genres getting programmed, and less rehearsal time to fit all of that in means even more prep. time at home. Yes, a regular week of performing/rehearsing runs only 20 hours or so, but the prep. time can/should equal that. Add some teaching/freelancing (necessary when the orchestra salary doesn't cover home expenses on its own), and it's easy to find yourself in a  time crunch to fit all of that in. I've found myself feeling "behind the eight ball" a few times particularly when I was negotiating a couple of our contracts, and putting in long, mostly unpaid hours to get to a settlement.

A couple of things have made the biggest difference in the financial health of orchestras - less govt. funding everywhere (even in classical music friendly Europe) and less arts education in schools. Add to that, the change in population/affluence in cities. Many major orchestras are located in cities that had a manufacturing based economy. As those jobs disappeared, the populations of those cities actually went down, and the folks left were poorer and less educated - far less likely to subscribe to a symphony. The flip side is that other cities have flourished - LA and San Francisco in particular have a thriving arts scene that has only gotten better in the last 3 decades. The funding changes that I talked about have added to the need for administration, because somebody has to go out and raise more money to put on the concerts.

 I'll also disagree here with the whole idea of there not being a big enough (potential) audience to support an orchestra. The comparison to pop/country/rap performers who get huge crowds is not a good one. Beyonce was just in Edmonton, a couple of hours north of here. She played in a stadium for around 20,000 people. We almost never do anything like that, but we are playing to roughly 2000 people at least twice every weekend for 40 weeks. If Beyonce were to come back to that stadium twice every weekend for 40 weeks, how big do you think her crowd would be by the end? For one thing, it would take her at least 6 months of rehearsal to come up with a new show. A symphony or opera isn't repeating things endlessly - maybe just a couple of performances, and then on to something completely new. We sell out many nights, and usually do at least OK in regards to our audience - there are folks who want to hear this stuff.

 Also we're finding that a significant portion of our audience is young, and they don't want to come to Pops - symphonic music crosses generational boundaries much better that rock or country which tends to divide old/new music in old/young audience. What symphonic and jazz music both do is attract their audience more from people that are better educated and more exposed to arts/literature than the average person. I'm not suggesting that these people are "better", but they are the target audience. People over 40 still dominate the audience as well, but that is more about a shift away from bars/clubs for outings, and kids at home being old enough to not require baby sitters, etc.

This all started with an article about dissatisfaction in the workplace of symphonic musicians. My feeling there is pretty much the same as how I started this rant - sometimes that's true, and sometimes it's not (even for the same people!). I generally love what I do, except for the weeks with a lousy conductor, crappy repertoire, etc. I still think I default to the former, but like anyone else, I sometimes complain about my job. I still wouldn't do anything else, unless I had to. There's the stress of an air traffic controller in Bolero/Rhenish/Brahms 1 weeks, but there's huge satisfaction in those same weeks (if it goes well!). I will say that the worst change has been what I call the amatuer-ization of things like Pops. When I started, the Pops field had more guys with a solid conducting background, and a set of professional arrangements. There are now, particularly with the Rock style Pops, a lot of conductors without any training, who can't read a score. Add to that arrangements that don't have proper scoring, good ranges, knowledge of notation. Computer programs "spell" things with random choices of sharps/flats, and professional arrangers know how to notate a simple swing lick so you read it the first time, instead of having to spend time deciphering where the beats are. If there's anything musical that I'd complain about in a public forum like this, it's just that I used to find those weeks to be enjoyable more often than I do now.

I'll have a smile on my face in a couple of weeks when we finish our season with Mahler 8th - 7 trombones blowing way at the end of the symphony. If some of the other weeks are a bit less satisfying, so be it!

Jim Scott
Calgary Philharmonic

And that's just for home fixtures. Doing an out of town show adds a whole lot more work. Toughest gig in an orchestra, in my opinion.

Okay, okay.  I concede.  A lot of very good and persuasive arguments have been presented by people living the life.  So then, what's the answer for the Ulster Orchestra?  They cannot go hemorrhaging 300K a year for very long before someone calls it quits.  There has to be a way of making it work.  Maybe multi-millionaire performers like Beyonce can contribute a bit to the finer arts.

Quote from: BillO on May 28, 2016, 02:51PMOkay, okay.  I concede.  A lot of very good and persuasive arguments have been presented by people living the life.  So then, what's the answer for the Ulster Orchestra?  They cannot go hemorrhaging 300K a year for very long before someone calls it quits.  There has to be a way of making it work.  Maybe multi-millionaire performers like Beyonce can contribute a bit to the finer arts.

The answer? Either charge $1000 per ticket and get larger audiences or convince the people with the money (government and big business) that we are worth supporting.

Quote from: BillO on May 28, 2016, 02:51PMOkay, okay.  I concede.  A lot of very good and persuasive arguments have been presented by people living the life.  So then, what's the answer for the Ulster Orchestra?  They cannot go hemorrhaging 300K a year for very long before someone calls it quits.  There has to be a way of making it work.  Maybe multi-millionaire performers like Beyonce can contribute a bit to the finer arts.

Let's go back to that administrative staff of 19 (I'm fairly sure it was 19).

Between us, we've only managed to come up with orchestra management roles for about half that number. There's an obvious and instant saving of over half their budget deficit right there.

Government won't give more funding. Private sponsorship might. Sneaking a £ or two onto the ticket price helps a little. A bit more commercial savvy wouldn't go amiss. People seem to like those Pirates of the Caribbean With Live Orchestra shows and Video Game Soundtrack Extravaganzas and such like.

I don't know the Ulster situation enough to comment on specific solutions to their problems, but:

Diversity of programming helps attract people in - video game music, movie music, backing up a "name" popular performer every once in a while (that has a downside, because of the costs involved - not always profitable). One caution - too much of this, and you start watering down your product - you can alienate your core audience, and people that come in for this stuff don't always come back all that often.

Staff - rather than number of employees, I'd take a hard look at productivity - does the Marketing person get results? Are they using social media effectively enough? Are their "events" (wine tastings, art auctions, etc.) working - bringing in new people who attend concerts and donate to the orchestra? Do the CEO and Development person bring in money for corporations? Dump anyone that isn't producing. Also, are they offering those businesses what they want in exchange for donations - some will free up more cash to support educational initiatives, so concerts in schools, musician mentoring, etc. can be worth a lot to the organization.

Arrange after concert events - wine and cheese, or a keg and nachos where the orchestra socializes with the public - worth a lot in good will, and making patrons feel a part of things. They want to come back.

Are there neighboring cites/towns where there's no orchestra? Doing another performance of a concert that you're playing at home in a nearby place is efficient use of rehearsal time, and introduces the orchestra to a whole new audience/donor base.

One thing after all of these positives, if Ulster is a city that's not doing so well financially, there may not be too much that can be done. You need a good corporate community to get support from, and a decent number of middle class (and above) educated population for an audience base. Like I said in my earlier post, a lot of the problems that have been seen in N. American orchestras can be traced to the decline of many rust-belt cities. If Ulster is in this situation, it will be hard to stop the problems for the orchestra - you can't find cash where there is none.

Jim Scott

Just for comparison the (full time) Dallas Symphony lists 78 staff positions

I believe all of those are paid positions. I don't know how many, if any, are part time.

I know quite a bit about the Ulster Orchestra position through my union work. They have probably the smallest admin team of any British orchestra. Computers breed work, government regs breed work, All admins have ballooned in recent years. Here in Scotland both Scottish Opera and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra have NO full time performers on staff but carry very large full time admin teams. Something very odd about the modern world.

Chris Stearn

Symphony work would never be pathetic for me..

Leif