Gardell Simons, John Coffey, Milt Stevens, Jim Nova, Of course Mr. Allessi, must be included. Simons, according to John Coffey, may have been one of the first to teach legato tonguing.
Trombone players with great Articulations
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ttf_usafband1976
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ttf_reedman1
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Trombone players with great Articulations
Quote from: sabutin on Jun 29, 2016, 03:20AMOK...let's get real. Let's define the way that we are using the word "articulation" before we go any further here.
Wikipedia has a fairly good one:
Now let's talk about the slide trombone.
What is the operative word...the defining word...in that name?
"Slide"
We have so many possibilities for affecting "the transition or continuity on a single note or between multiple notes or sounds" that we cannot even agree about who does what well. Was Willie Dennis...who developed a rapid jazz improvisation technique that used almost almost no tongue at all, just across the grain slurs..."articulating?" You could hear and understand the lines he was playing, right? Guess so. In Brad Edwards'a wonderful Lip Slur Melodies books...Rochut-like melodies which are constructed so that they can be played very musically (another word that needs definition here) entirely without the use of the tongue after the initial attack of each phrase...is there any "articulating" going on? Bet on it. Slide articulation. Slide technique. Can valved brass instruments and other keyed winds do this a thousand times more easily than can we? Bet on that as well. Does the well known
-> 
gliss in Tiger Rag in the key of F count as an "articulation?" Damned right it does!
So...what are we really talking about here? Is "articulation" all about speed? Ask Tommy Dorsey. Ask Joe Alessi. Of course not. It's about music.
And here we are stuck on that other definition.
What is "music?" Was Kid Ory "musical?" How about Tricky Sam Nanton? Roswell Rudd? The freshman trombonist who was trundled out in front of the school band to massacre IGSOY in Bb? At least he's trying, right? Strange "articulators," all of them. Strange compared to common practice, anyway. So was Clark Terry. Check out what he thought about articulation!!! (Here at about 24:30.)
So what does this all boil down to?
It boils down to two things.
1-What you like. What is "musical"...meaning pleasing...to you.
and
2-What you are physically capable of doing as a trombonist coupled with what you want to do. What is "musical" within your own capabilities and likes/dislikes..
For example...I'll use myself. I played with Bill Watrous a great deal...I played lead in his NYC band for several years, and his musicality is beyond argument as far as I am concerned. But I personally had other "musicalities" that I wished to pursue, ones that asked for more volume and variance of attack than his very quiet, very controlled doodle tongue style allows. Thus I did not try to copy his approach. I'll amend that statement. When I did try to play like that I found it very limiting. For me. And since "me" is all I have to work with, I did not pursue it.
Now...all of us have the same limitation. Ourselves. I have heard people put down Watrous and Fontana because they did not play loudly or aggressively. I have heard people put down J.J. because he used a great number of formulaic licks. I have heard people put down players like say Vic Dickenson because their playing was "sloppy." I have heard people put down great orchestral players because they are not good improvisors. I have heard people put down Urbie Green because he didn't play more "modern," or Tommy Dorsey because he didn't play "hot." But they all...and every other successful working trombonist...had good enough articulation (no matter how you define the term) to produce something that was recognizably "musical" enough for a sufficient number people to pay them to do it so that they could make a living at it.
Just like some truly fine players simply cannot master the altissimo or bass ranges no matter how hard they try...their physicality is simply wrong for those ranges...some people's tongues simply cannot be taught to single tongue past a certain speed. Others seem not to be able to doodle tongue at any speed. Some people are not gifted with great speed in general. Or great endurance or great flexibility. Look at athletes. Same same. LeBron James is the exception that proves the rule. They deal with what they have. They deal with themselves.
Us too.
Now that we have maybe thought a little more about articulation...on with the show.
S.
Just read this. It is a GREAT post.
Wikipedia has a fairly good one:
Now let's talk about the slide trombone.
What is the operative word...the defining word...in that name?
"Slide"
We have so many possibilities for affecting "the transition or continuity on a single note or between multiple notes or sounds" that we cannot even agree about who does what well. Was Willie Dennis...who developed a rapid jazz improvisation technique that used almost almost no tongue at all, just across the grain slurs..."articulating?" You could hear and understand the lines he was playing, right? Guess so. In Brad Edwards'a wonderful Lip Slur Melodies books...Rochut-like melodies which are constructed so that they can be played very musically (another word that needs definition here) entirely without the use of the tongue after the initial attack of each phrase...is there any "articulating" going on? Bet on it. Slide articulation. Slide technique. Can valved brass instruments and other keyed winds do this a thousand times more easily than can we? Bet on that as well. Does the well known
-> gliss in Tiger Rag in the key of F count as an "articulation?" Damned right it does!So...what are we really talking about here? Is "articulation" all about speed? Ask Tommy Dorsey. Ask Joe Alessi. Of course not. It's about music.
And here we are stuck on that other definition.
What is "music?" Was Kid Ory "musical?" How about Tricky Sam Nanton? Roswell Rudd? The freshman trombonist who was trundled out in front of the school band to massacre IGSOY in Bb? At least he's trying, right? Strange "articulators," all of them. Strange compared to common practice, anyway. So was Clark Terry. Check out what he thought about articulation!!! (Here at about 24:30.)
So what does this all boil down to?
It boils down to two things.
1-What you like. What is "musical"...meaning pleasing...to you.
and
2-What you are physically capable of doing as a trombonist coupled with what you want to do. What is "musical" within your own capabilities and likes/dislikes..
For example...I'll use myself. I played with Bill Watrous a great deal...I played lead in his NYC band for several years, and his musicality is beyond argument as far as I am concerned. But I personally had other "musicalities" that I wished to pursue, ones that asked for more volume and variance of attack than his very quiet, very controlled doodle tongue style allows. Thus I did not try to copy his approach. I'll amend that statement. When I did try to play like that I found it very limiting. For me. And since "me" is all I have to work with, I did not pursue it.
Now...all of us have the same limitation. Ourselves. I have heard people put down Watrous and Fontana because they did not play loudly or aggressively. I have heard people put down J.J. because he used a great number of formulaic licks. I have heard people put down players like say Vic Dickenson because their playing was "sloppy." I have heard people put down great orchestral players because they are not good improvisors. I have heard people put down Urbie Green because he didn't play more "modern," or Tommy Dorsey because he didn't play "hot." But they all...and every other successful working trombonist...had good enough articulation (no matter how you define the term) to produce something that was recognizably "musical" enough for a sufficient number people to pay them to do it so that they could make a living at it.
Just like some truly fine players simply cannot master the altissimo or bass ranges no matter how hard they try...their physicality is simply wrong for those ranges...some people's tongues simply cannot be taught to single tongue past a certain speed. Others seem not to be able to doodle tongue at any speed. Some people are not gifted with great speed in general. Or great endurance or great flexibility. Look at athletes. Same same. LeBron James is the exception that proves the rule. They deal with what they have. They deal with themselves.
Us too.
Now that we have maybe thought a little more about articulation...on with the show.
S.
Just read this. It is a GREAT post.
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ttf_Stretch Longarm
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Trombone players with great Articulations
Nobody mentioned Wycliffe...!
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ttf_bonenick
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ttf_timmopussycat
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Trombone players with great Articulations
Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 03, 2016, 08:23AMIn the classical world, how about Doug Wright at Minnesota? Where some people play footballs and others bricks, he plays gage blocks.
In the commercial world, I was always amazed at what Mike Suter could do.
You and me both!
In the commercial world, I was always amazed at what Mike Suter could do.
You and me both!
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ttf_tbullion
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ttf_Pre59
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Trombone players with great Articulations
Quote from: tbullion on Dec 22, 2017, 07:51PMBrian Hecht...sheesh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vAzFVMhIjo
And a great sound, is that a brass bell?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vAzFVMhIjo
And a great sound, is that a brass bell?
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ttf_Burgerbob
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ttf_Pre59
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Trombone players with great Articulations
I do prefer the sound of a brass bell, there's something of the "GR" in his tone.
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ttf_Pre59
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Trombone players with great Articulations
I do prefer the sound of a brass bell, there's something of the "GR" in his tone.