Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 09, 2016, 04:33AMThe information you posted tells me you will be going into your junior year this fall. If you are having fun and everyone around you is happy with the way you play - including your director - then keep doing what you are doing. But if you plan on taking your horn with you to college or otherwise continuing to play afterwards, then it wouldn't hurt for you - at your age - to have some lessons with a GOOD trombone or brass teacher.
...Geezer
It wouldn't hurt for ANYONE, at ANY age (geezerly or otherwise), to have some lessons with a GOOD trombone or brass teacher.
Being self-taught is great.
Taking lessons--because "I don't know what I don't know," and having someone help point out what you don't know--is also great.
Being Self-Taught
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ttf_LowrBrass
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ttf_LowrBrass
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...And also everything everyone else has said. Statement above was my knee-jerk reaction to what felt like a slightly hypocritical bit of advice. 
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Quote from: LowrBrass on Aug 09, 2016, 05:35AM...And also everything everyone else has said. Statement above was my knee-jerk reaction to what felt like a slightly hypocritical bit of advice.
If it's hypocritical to be influenced by what others state, then yes - I am a hypocrite.
If it's hypocritical to become educated by others, then yes - I am a hypocrite.
If it's hypocritical to change, grow and evolve, then yes - I am a hypocrite.
...Geezer
If it's hypocritical to be influenced by what others state, then yes - I am a hypocrite.
If it's hypocritical to become educated by others, then yes - I am a hypocrite.
If it's hypocritical to change, grow and evolve, then yes - I am a hypocrite.
...Geezer
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Statement above was my knee-jerk reaction to what felt like a slightly snarky post.
...Geezer
...Geezer
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ttf_11914227
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Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 09, 2016, 04:33AMThe information you posted tells me you will be going into your junior year this fall. If you are having fun and everyone around you is happy with the way you play - including your director - then keep doing what you are doing. But if you plan on taking your horn with you to college or otherwise continuing to play afterwards, then it wouldn't hurt for you - at your age - to have some lessons with a GOOD trombone or brass teacher.
...Geezer
I never said I didn't want lessons. It's a combination of my age and not controlling the money, I live in the middle of nowhere so walking to a job isn't an option, plus I'd really like to get out of using a school horn, so when I do get a job I'll be putting as much as I can towards that. But I will be taking lessons whenever the opportunity arises.
...Geezer
I never said I didn't want lessons. It's a combination of my age and not controlling the money, I live in the middle of nowhere so walking to a job isn't an option, plus I'd really like to get out of using a school horn, so when I do get a job I'll be putting as much as I can towards that. But I will be taking lessons whenever the opportunity arises.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: 11914227 on Aug 09, 2016, 11:35AMI never said I didn't want lessons. It's a combination of my age and not controlling the money, I live in the middle of nowhere so walking to a job isn't an option, plus I'd really like to get out of using a school horn, so when I do get a job I'll be putting as much as I can towards that. But I will be taking lessons whenever the opportunity arises.
It's tough sometimes being that age. When I was that age, there were things I wanted as well, with no way to earn the money to get them. I had to wait. Sometimes, as an adult, you get to have all the toys you wanted as a youth - if you still want them.
I'm also planning on taking some lessons in the near future. Why am I waiting? I have a pretty full load right now of things I need to do and things I still want to do on my own. But that will soon pass. Everything always does. Your turn will come as well. Perhaps in about a year, you will be driving and that will open up a lot of possibilities. Meanwhile, have as much fun as you can while you can.
...Geezer
It's tough sometimes being that age. When I was that age, there were things I wanted as well, with no way to earn the money to get them. I had to wait. Sometimes, as an adult, you get to have all the toys you wanted as a youth - if you still want them.
I'm also planning on taking some lessons in the near future. Why am I waiting? I have a pretty full load right now of things I need to do and things I still want to do on my own. But that will soon pass. Everything always does. Your turn will come as well. Perhaps in about a year, you will be driving and that will open up a lot of possibilities. Meanwhile, have as much fun as you can while you can.
...Geezer
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ttf_BMadsen
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: 11914227 on Aug 09, 2016, 11:35AMI never said I didn't want lessons. It's a combination of my age and not controlling the money, I live in the middle of nowhere so walking to a job isn't an option, plus I'd really like to get out of using a school horn, so when I do get a job I'll be putting as much as I can towards that. But I will be taking lessons whenever the opportunity arises.
You will get more out of lessons at this point than owning your own horns, assuming you can take the school horn home to practice. While not ideal, if you want to continue music in college, they won't care if you audition on a school owned horn or a horn you own - but they will care if you can play (among other things). If you end up having to buy a horn since you are heading to college, you can talk to your future teacher about what to get, and be in a much better position to actually make good use of it.
You will get more out of lessons at this point than owning your own horns, assuming you can take the school horn home to practice. While not ideal, if you want to continue music in college, they won't care if you audition on a school owned horn or a horn you own - but they will care if you can play (among other things). If you end up having to buy a horn since you are heading to college, you can talk to your future teacher about what to get, and be in a much better position to actually make good use of it.
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ttf_Radar
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: 11914227 on Aug 09, 2016, 11:35AMI never said I didn't want lessons. It's a combination of my age and not controlling the money, I live in the middle of nowhere so walking to a job isn't an option, plus I'd really like to get out of using a school horn, so when I do get a job I'll be putting as much as I can towards that. But I will be taking lessons whenever the opportunity arises.
Having your own horn when you get out of highschool, and need to practice that summer between High School and College will be a necessity, unless you get real lucky and someone will loan you one. Unless you are planning to be a trombone performance major you don't have to shoot for the moon on that first horn. There are many very playable used horns out there that can be had at a reasonable price. Set your sights a little lower on the horn (not knowing what your plan is I'm guessing here), and take as many lessons as you can afford also. There are many sources of information available for self taught players, but keep in mind that not all of them are credible, and none of those on-line instructors have ever seen or heard you play to know what you already do well, and what you need to work to improve on. I've done a lot of both taking lessons and self teaching over the years, and I definately benefit most from the time I spend with a knowledgeable instructor.
Having your own horn when you get out of highschool, and need to practice that summer between High School and College will be a necessity, unless you get real lucky and someone will loan you one. Unless you are planning to be a trombone performance major you don't have to shoot for the moon on that first horn. There are many very playable used horns out there that can be had at a reasonable price. Set your sights a little lower on the horn (not knowing what your plan is I'm guessing here), and take as many lessons as you can afford also. There are many sources of information available for self taught players, but keep in mind that not all of them are credible, and none of those on-line instructors have ever seen or heard you play to know what you already do well, and what you need to work to improve on. I've done a lot of both taking lessons and self teaching over the years, and I definately benefit most from the time I spend with a knowledgeable instructor.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: BMadsen on Aug 09, 2016, 01:03PMYou will get more out of lessons at this point than owning your own horns, assuming you can take the school horn home to practice. While not ideal, if you want to continue music in college, they won't care if you audition on a school owned horn or a horn you own - but they will care if you can play (among other things). If you end up having to buy a horn since you are heading to college, you can talk to your future teacher about what to get, and be in a much better position to actually make good use of it.
Good advices, guys!
I was thinking through this topic the other day and my relationship with being largely self-taught. I started wishing that I had bought a decent trombone when I first started working, back in the early 70's. But then it occurred to me that - despite all the lesson books - there was not nearly as much "how to" information available as there is now. And other than a few play-along LP's, there just wasn't all the other stuff, such as BiaB and the like that is available today. I coulda and probably woulda done a search through some larger libraries. But back then, that was about it. So if I would have wanted to learn how to the play the trombone, I would have almost certainly had to find a good teacher and get my learning passed on to me that way.
But it's far, far different now. Love it, hate it or feel indifferent about it, the Internet and all that it brings is here to stay in our lifetimes and we are inextricably bound to it. Look what happened recently at Delta when their system crashed! NOW there is a wealth of information available, albeit some or maybe even most of it (like this thread - lol) is marginally useful. But it's out there; just like most of what I might possibly find in the public library on "playing the trombone" might be marginally useful, without in-person explanations and demonstrations.
So, I'm concluding that in today's world, it IS possible for mature individuals with a bit of a knack for figuring things out on their own to self-teach the trombone reasonably well by tapping the online resources available to us today and I'm not referring to Skype. Reasonably well is the operative here. Expertly well would - for probably 99% of us - involve private instruction from a great teacher. Reasonably well was my goal when I picked up a horn to play. I've achieved that goal. I'm now planning on getting involved in private instruction to get to a higher level. From what I've read on this Forum over the years, I don't think anyone would argue the point against taking private instruction from an excellent teacher as being beneficial. But make no mistake about it, I have absolutely no regrets over being self-taught to this point and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't want it any other way.
BUT. I am a mature person (welllll...) with a bit of a knack for figuring things out. It doesn't follow that every school-aged child can do this. Unless they are truly gifted - and heck, even if they are - they still need to be shown by someone who knows.
...Geezer
Good advices, guys!
I was thinking through this topic the other day and my relationship with being largely self-taught. I started wishing that I had bought a decent trombone when I first started working, back in the early 70's. But then it occurred to me that - despite all the lesson books - there was not nearly as much "how to" information available as there is now. And other than a few play-along LP's, there just wasn't all the other stuff, such as BiaB and the like that is available today. I coulda and probably woulda done a search through some larger libraries. But back then, that was about it. So if I would have wanted to learn how to the play the trombone, I would have almost certainly had to find a good teacher and get my learning passed on to me that way.
But it's far, far different now. Love it, hate it or feel indifferent about it, the Internet and all that it brings is here to stay in our lifetimes and we are inextricably bound to it. Look what happened recently at Delta when their system crashed! NOW there is a wealth of information available, albeit some or maybe even most of it (like this thread - lol) is marginally useful. But it's out there; just like most of what I might possibly find in the public library on "playing the trombone" might be marginally useful, without in-person explanations and demonstrations.
So, I'm concluding that in today's world, it IS possible for mature individuals with a bit of a knack for figuring things out on their own to self-teach the trombone reasonably well by tapping the online resources available to us today and I'm not referring to Skype. Reasonably well is the operative here. Expertly well would - for probably 99% of us - involve private instruction from a great teacher. Reasonably well was my goal when I picked up a horn to play. I've achieved that goal. I'm now planning on getting involved in private instruction to get to a higher level. From what I've read on this Forum over the years, I don't think anyone would argue the point against taking private instruction from an excellent teacher as being beneficial. But make no mistake about it, I have absolutely no regrets over being self-taught to this point and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't want it any other way.
BUT. I am a mature person (welllll...) with a bit of a knack for figuring things out. It doesn't follow that every school-aged child can do this. Unless they are truly gifted - and heck, even if they are - they still need to be shown by someone who knows.
...Geezer
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ttf_Torobone
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Being Self-Taught
Well, Geezer, the Internet is a great place to start. I took a year of lessons before I gave back the Army's "worst 88H ever" (tm) and bought my 42B in 1974 (at the recommendation of my teacher who played an 88H."
You can use internet resources and figure things out. You can learn to be great, or more likely you can get to a better level. You may be happy, you may be good, but how do you really know?
To quote Donald Runsfeld: "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."
For me, I prefer to use this analogy and quote Steven Wright: "My bank put in 24 hour banking. I switched banks - I didn't have that much time."
Lessons save me time.
You can use internet resources and figure things out. You can learn to be great, or more likely you can get to a better level. You may be happy, you may be good, but how do you really know?
To quote Donald Runsfeld: "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."
For me, I prefer to use this analogy and quote Steven Wright: "My bank put in 24 hour banking. I switched banks - I didn't have that much time."
Lessons save me time.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Torobone on Aug 10, 2016, 06:27PMWell, Geezer, the Internet is a great place to start. I took a year of lessons before I gave back the Army's "worst 88H ever" (tm) and bought my 42B in 1974 (at the recommendation of my teacher who played an 88H."
You can use internet resources and figure things out. You can learn to be great, or more likely you can get to a better level. You may be happy, you may be good, but how do you really know?
To quote Donald Runsfeld: "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."
For me, I prefer to use this analogy and quote Steven Wright: "My bank put in 24 hour banking. I switched banks - I didn't have that much time."
Lessons save me time.
Well, that's a philosophical question of which there may be no true answer. How do we know we know? We don't. We make assumptions based upon feedback and then act on it.
I don't think I ever argued against that point.
...Geezer
You can use internet resources and figure things out. You can learn to be great, or more likely you can get to a better level. You may be happy, you may be good, but how do you really know?
To quote Donald Runsfeld: "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."
For me, I prefer to use this analogy and quote Steven Wright: "My bank put in 24 hour banking. I switched banks - I didn't have that much time."
Lessons save me time.
Well, that's a philosophical question of which there may be no true answer. How do we know we know? We don't. We make assumptions based upon feedback and then act on it.
I don't think I ever argued against that point.
...Geezer
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ttf_Doug Elliott
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Being Self-Taught
My own stories are not about being self-taught because I had a teacher from the time I first took my Olds Recording out of the case when I was 8 years old. And I continuously had GREAT teachers from then until I was about 30.
But some of the best players (Dave Steinmeyer comes to mind) were self-taught, or at least Dave told me he never had a lesson. I partially attribute his success to having never been told the wrong thing.
On the internet there is lots of well-intentioned bad information. Sorting through it can be a problem if you don't have any guidance as to what's good.
And it's good to not be held back by someone telling you what you can't do. I had two or three lessons from a well respected local teacher who told me I wasn't ready for the Grade 6 solos I was playing, in high school (I was playing and had memorized the Creston Fantasy, among others). He wanted me to do the stuff he was teaching his other students. I changed teachers quickly.
Thinking about this reminds me of when I was in 2nd grade, and in the school library I was selecting books from the 4th grade section because that's what I was reading. The librarian told me to get books from the 2nd grade section because I couldn't possibly be ready to read the books I was choosing. I stopped going to the school library.
(My mother had been an elementary school teacher and taught me to read very early)
But some of the best players (Dave Steinmeyer comes to mind) were self-taught, or at least Dave told me he never had a lesson. I partially attribute his success to having never been told the wrong thing.
On the internet there is lots of well-intentioned bad information. Sorting through it can be a problem if you don't have any guidance as to what's good.
And it's good to not be held back by someone telling you what you can't do. I had two or three lessons from a well respected local teacher who told me I wasn't ready for the Grade 6 solos I was playing, in high school (I was playing and had memorized the Creston Fantasy, among others). He wanted me to do the stuff he was teaching his other students. I changed teachers quickly.
Thinking about this reminds me of when I was in 2nd grade, and in the school library I was selecting books from the 4th grade section because that's what I was reading. The librarian told me to get books from the 2nd grade section because I couldn't possibly be ready to read the books I was choosing. I stopped going to the school library.
(My mother had been an elementary school teacher and taught me to read very early)
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ttf_watermailonman
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Doug Elliott on Aug 10, 2016, 07:38PMMy own stories are not about being self-taught because I had a teacher from the time I first took my Olds Recording out of the case when I was 8 years old. And I continuously had GREAT teachers from then until I was about 30.
But some of the best players (Dave Steinmeyer comes to mind) were self-taught, or at least Dave told me he never had a lesson. I partially attribute his success to having never been told the wrong thing.
On the internet there is lots of well-intentioned bad information. Sorting through it can be a problem if you don't have any guidance as to what's good.
And it's good to not be held back by someone telling you what you can't do. I had two or three lessons from a well respected local teacher who told me I wasn't ready for the Grade 6 solos I was playing, in high school (I was playing and had memorized the Creston Fantasy, among others). He wanted me to do the stuff he was teaching his other students. I changed teachers quickly.
Thinking about this reminds me of when I was in 2nd grade, and in the school library I was selecting books from the 4th grade section because that's what I was reading. The librarian told me to get books from the 2nd grade section because I couldn't possibly be ready to read the books I was choosing. I stopped going to the school library.
(My mother had been an elementary school teacher and taught me to read very early)
Thank you för sharing this. Particularly helpful when someone like you decides to share your thoughts since you became such a good player. I agree! Don't let anyone tell you there is something you can't do. Actually the word "can't" should be banned from all teaching. If you are a teacher you need to refrase that. Try to express what to do instead of what not to do. It WILL make you a more pleasant teacher and a more fun person to be around too.
/Tom
But some of the best players (Dave Steinmeyer comes to mind) were self-taught, or at least Dave told me he never had a lesson. I partially attribute his success to having never been told the wrong thing.
On the internet there is lots of well-intentioned bad information. Sorting through it can be a problem if you don't have any guidance as to what's good.
And it's good to not be held back by someone telling you what you can't do. I had two or three lessons from a well respected local teacher who told me I wasn't ready for the Grade 6 solos I was playing, in high school (I was playing and had memorized the Creston Fantasy, among others). He wanted me to do the stuff he was teaching his other students. I changed teachers quickly.
Thinking about this reminds me of when I was in 2nd grade, and in the school library I was selecting books from the 4th grade section because that's what I was reading. The librarian told me to get books from the 2nd grade section because I couldn't possibly be ready to read the books I was choosing. I stopped going to the school library.
(My mother had been an elementary school teacher and taught me to read very early)
Thank you för sharing this. Particularly helpful when someone like you decides to share your thoughts since you became such a good player. I agree! Don't let anyone tell you there is something you can't do. Actually the word "can't" should be banned from all teaching. If you are a teacher you need to refrase that. Try to express what to do instead of what not to do. It WILL make you a more pleasant teacher and a more fun person to be around too.
/Tom
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ttf_stephenkerry
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Being Self-Taught
QuoteThinking about this reminds me of when I was in 2nd grade, and in the school library I was selecting books from the 4th grade section because that's what I was reading. The librarian told me to get books from the 2nd grade section because I couldn't possibly be ready to read the books I was choosing. I stopped going to the school library
That is such a weird attitude from a library. the really good players that I have known were all way ahead of the pack very quickly. Not that I would have ever found any trombone music in my school library, oor even much music at all.
That is such a weird attitude from a library. the really good players that I have known were all way ahead of the pack very quickly. Not that I would have ever found any trombone music in my school library, oor even much music at all.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
"The plot - like my gravy - thickens!", Raj - from The Big Bang Theory.
Not to dis on teachers in general, b/c they really try hard and are under a lot of stress. But let's face it, sometimes a student does well anyway. Give me 100 students and I'll bet at least half of them will do pretty well anyway. Give a great teacher 100 students and I'll bet 95% or more will do really well. A great teacher will find out what works for a LOT more variances and how to relate it so that the student "gets" it. Perhaps as Sam might state, that is a really good teacher - by definition. lol
I think it was Harrison who mentioned learning from being around good musicians. The other night, during pre-rehearal, I had three "lessons".
1) I observed a tuba player putting the mpc up to his lips and blowing one note. Pause. Lips to mpc, timed with his foot and blow the same one note again. Over & over until I guess he was satisfied, then on to another note. What a great way to practice timing and perfect attack! Now it's a part of my training.
2) I observed a 'bone player take his horn out, blow the condensate out and then play a nice little riff or two and sound darn good doing it. Why can't I do that? I can, if I decide I can!
3) I heard another 'bone player warm up low, middle and high-ish. I admired the openness of his tone through the three ranges. Now I compare the openness of my tone through the three ranges to a model of excellence I have in my head. Not HIS tone, but a model of openness of tone, given MY tone.
I'm in three bands and looking for a fourth. I learn from all those experiences. And after recovering from a large set-back due to a major health problem, I'm riding the learning curve high again. But it's starting to act like a tease and making me wonder how fast I could learn under a really good teacher.
Doug's story reminds me of a Trig teacher I had as a HS senior. Towards the end, she put a problem up on the blackboard for - presumably - the brighter students to try to solve. I remember one student who just looked at the blackboard. After a sufficient number of heads bobbed up, she said, "Well Chris, was that too hard for you"? At which point he gave the solution. She scowled at him over her horn-rimmed glasses and said, "You shouldn't know how to do that"! lol
...Geezer
Not to dis on teachers in general, b/c they really try hard and are under a lot of stress. But let's face it, sometimes a student does well anyway. Give me 100 students and I'll bet at least half of them will do pretty well anyway. Give a great teacher 100 students and I'll bet 95% or more will do really well. A great teacher will find out what works for a LOT more variances and how to relate it so that the student "gets" it. Perhaps as Sam might state, that is a really good teacher - by definition. lol
I think it was Harrison who mentioned learning from being around good musicians. The other night, during pre-rehearal, I had three "lessons".
1) I observed a tuba player putting the mpc up to his lips and blowing one note. Pause. Lips to mpc, timed with his foot and blow the same one note again. Over & over until I guess he was satisfied, then on to another note. What a great way to practice timing and perfect attack! Now it's a part of my training.
2) I observed a 'bone player take his horn out, blow the condensate out and then play a nice little riff or two and sound darn good doing it. Why can't I do that? I can, if I decide I can!
3) I heard another 'bone player warm up low, middle and high-ish. I admired the openness of his tone through the three ranges. Now I compare the openness of my tone through the three ranges to a model of excellence I have in my head. Not HIS tone, but a model of openness of tone, given MY tone.
I'm in three bands and looking for a fourth. I learn from all those experiences. And after recovering from a large set-back due to a major health problem, I'm riding the learning curve high again. But it's starting to act like a tease and making me wonder how fast I could learn under a really good teacher.
Doug's story reminds me of a Trig teacher I had as a HS senior. Towards the end, she put a problem up on the blackboard for - presumably - the brighter students to try to solve. I remember one student who just looked at the blackboard. After a sufficient number of heads bobbed up, she said, "Well Chris, was that too hard for you"? At which point he gave the solution. She scowled at him over her horn-rimmed glasses and said, "You shouldn't know how to do that"! lol
...Geezer
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ttf_timothy42b
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 11, 2016, 04:39AM
Not to dis on teachers in general, b/c they really try hard and are under a lot of stress. But let's face it, sometimes a student does well anyway. Give me 100 students and I'll bet at least half of them will do pretty well anyway. Give a great teacher 100 students and I'll bet 95% or more will do really well. A great teacher will find out what works for a LOT more variances and how to relate it so that the student "gets" it. Perhaps as Sam might state, that is a really good teacher - by definition. lol
...Geezer
I'm sure we've all read Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers." While there's a good bit of debate about the 10,000 hours, one of his other points has some validity. One group of kids gets significantly more coaching, mentoring, training, and competition opportunities than the rest, and is seen as more talented. He believes that not all of this talent is innate, some of it is merely because they got that extra help early (because they were born earlier in the year and were more physically developed.)
Not to dis on teachers in general, b/c they really try hard and are under a lot of stress. But let's face it, sometimes a student does well anyway. Give me 100 students and I'll bet at least half of them will do pretty well anyway. Give a great teacher 100 students and I'll bet 95% or more will do really well. A great teacher will find out what works for a LOT more variances and how to relate it so that the student "gets" it. Perhaps as Sam might state, that is a really good teacher - by definition. lol
...Geezer
I'm sure we've all read Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers." While there's a good bit of debate about the 10,000 hours, one of his other points has some validity. One group of kids gets significantly more coaching, mentoring, training, and competition opportunities than the rest, and is seen as more talented. He believes that not all of this talent is innate, some of it is merely because they got that extra help early (because they were born earlier in the year and were more physically developed.)
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Honestly, part of it has been a fear on my part that if I had found a local teacher who gave all appearances of being a good one - i.e. could play well and was self-confident - that he would proceed to derail me. Even if I'm doing a bunch of things wrong and actually need derailed, I make pretty nice with it all at present. I don't want to get derailed right now; I'm involved in too many groups. So I'm planning on waiting until most of the groups are in their "off" season and get myself some great instruction. If it turns out that I really need a bit of a derailing, then I have time to recover and improve. Right or wrong, that's my plan. I know me and I know how to deal with me, usually.
Lol, in my dreams - I go back in time to when I was in the 6th grade. I convince my parents to buy me a student horn, rather than the piece of condemned junk the local violin player/teacher wanted to unload from his inventory. Then I proceed to self-teach and by the middle of my 8th grade, I'm performing in the White House. Hey! We can all dream, can't we!
In another dream, in the present, I go to a great teacher and he says, "You shouldn't know how to do that"! Ahhhhh. Dreams.
...Geezer
Lol, in my dreams - I go back in time to when I was in the 6th grade. I convince my parents to buy me a student horn, rather than the piece of condemned junk the local violin player/teacher wanted to unload from his inventory. Then I proceed to self-teach and by the middle of my 8th grade, I'm performing in the White House. Hey! We can all dream, can't we!
In another dream, in the present, I go to a great teacher and he says, "You shouldn't know how to do that"! Ahhhhh. Dreams.
...Geezer
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ttf_Graham Martin
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Being Self-Taught
Bob McChesney ably demonstrating and speaking about how being self-taught enabled him to develop, amongst other things, his doodle tonguing. I have to say that Bob has always impressed me with his trombone technique in all areas. And he plays some very swinging jazz! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEOoe3frd3M
I have to say that my own self teaching did not produce the same results. However, in analysing my own playing experiences and the various times I undertook self study to improve my own playing, that I just do not see how all of that could have been accomplished in a few years of formal training, no matter how good the teacher.
I guess there are some short cuts in the learning experience if you find a good teacher, which I did to learn jazz theory and arranging in workshop type sessions. Back in the late 1950s I attended Owen Bryce's one-evening-per-week jazz course at Hendon Tech in the UK. Owen was a pioneer of Revivalist Jazz in the UK, playing with George Webbs Dixielanders. I have always been thankful for the jazz chord theory training he provided.
http://blogs.greenwich.co.uk/mary-mills/obituary-owen-bryce/
Much later, in my second-time around playing jazz trombone, I attended workshops with Aussie sax player Freddie Wilson. His jazz theory instruction took me that extra step further in my approach to improvisation. Also I met a lot of the Aussie musicians who I played with in later years - although it is surprising how many of them were originally Poms like myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEOoe3frd3M
I have to say that my own self teaching did not produce the same results.
However, in analysing my own playing experiences and the various times I undertook self study to improve my own playing, that I just do not see how all of that could have been accomplished in a few years of formal training, no matter how good the teacher. I guess there are some short cuts in the learning experience if you find a good teacher, which I did to learn jazz theory and arranging in workshop type sessions. Back in the late 1950s I attended Owen Bryce's one-evening-per-week jazz course at Hendon Tech in the UK. Owen was a pioneer of Revivalist Jazz in the UK, playing with George Webbs Dixielanders. I have always been thankful for the jazz chord theory training he provided.
http://blogs.greenwich.co.uk/mary-mills/obituary-owen-bryce/
Much later, in my second-time around playing jazz trombone, I attended workshops with Aussie sax player Freddie Wilson. His jazz theory instruction took me that extra step further in my approach to improvisation. Also I met a lot of the Aussie musicians who I played with in later years - although it is surprising how many of them were originally Poms like myself.
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ttf_Torobone
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Being Self-Taught
This thread has been useful to me as it has caused me to think about how I learn and how I teach. A few things come to mind.
I'm always a little leery of the 40+ year old player who proudly states they have never had a lesson. Very few of these players do not have a flaw that could be fixed with a lesson or two. But, having reached their current level on their own, their pride takes over and they don't want to break their "string" of being self-taught.
As an adult, the responsibility for learning and and development is always on the student. A senior high school student, after 12 years of schooling, might very well have more years of experience learning than many of their teachers have teaching. Applying this to teaching advanced trombonists, where does the teacher learn the necessary teaching skills to pass along their knowledge? Well, we do have this section called pedagogy to discuss things. References have a lot to do in finding a good teacher as well.
I play mostly tenor, but I took a lesson last Christmas on bass to ostensibly work on the independent valve setup of my Xeno bass. I also had a bit of a "hitch in my giddyup" with my bass that I was looking to solve. This teacher reached out to me based on a post on this forum, plus I had a sterling recommendation from a good friend. At the lesson, which went about 100 minutes, we went through a bunch of things, none that seemed impressive to me at the time, but a number of things have subsequently become clearer to me, and I can't even remember why I was having the "hitch" problem. So in retrospect, it was a great lesson.
I'm always a little leery of the 40+ year old player who proudly states they have never had a lesson. Very few of these players do not have a flaw that could be fixed with a lesson or two. But, having reached their current level on their own, their pride takes over and they don't want to break their "string" of being self-taught.
As an adult, the responsibility for learning and and development is always on the student. A senior high school student, after 12 years of schooling, might very well have more years of experience learning than many of their teachers have teaching. Applying this to teaching advanced trombonists, where does the teacher learn the necessary teaching skills to pass along their knowledge? Well, we do have this section called pedagogy to discuss things. References have a lot to do in finding a good teacher as well.
I play mostly tenor, but I took a lesson last Christmas on bass to ostensibly work on the independent valve setup of my Xeno bass. I also had a bit of a "hitch in my giddyup" with my bass that I was looking to solve. This teacher reached out to me based on a post on this forum, plus I had a sterling recommendation from a good friend. At the lesson, which went about 100 minutes, we went through a bunch of things, none that seemed impressive to me at the time, but a number of things have subsequently become clearer to me, and I can't even remember why I was having the "hitch" problem. So in retrospect, it was a great lesson.
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ttf_patrickosmith
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Being Self-Taught
Even the the most experienced Olympic athletes have trainers and coaches. If you're competing against someone with years of training from a great coach, while you have none (or a mediocre one), your likely to be the inferior player in that binary choice.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Torobone on Aug 12, 2016, 12:01AMThis thread has been useful to me as it has caused me to think about how I learn and how I teach. A few things come to mind.
I'm always a little leery of the 40+ year old player who proudly states they have never had a lesson. Very few of these players do not have a flaw that could be fixed with a lesson or two. But, having reached their current level on their own, their pride takes over and they don't want to break their "string" of being self-taught.
As an adult, the responsibility for learning and and development is always on the student. A senior high school student, after 12 years of schooling, might very well have more years of experience learning than many of their teachers have teaching. Applying this to teaching advanced trombonists, where does the teacher learn the necessary teaching skills to pass along their knowledge? Well, we do have this section called pedagogy to discuss things. References have a lot to do in finding a good teacher as well.
I play mostly tenor, but I took a lesson last Christmas on bass to ostensibly work on the independent valve setup of my Xeno bass. I also had a bit of a "hitch in my giddyup" with my bass that I was looking to solve. This teacher reached out to me based on a post on this forum, plus I had a sterling recommendation from a good friend. At the lesson, which went about 100 minutes, we went through a bunch of things, none that seemed impressive to me at the time, but a number of things have subsequently become clearer to me, and I can't even remember why I was having the "hitch" problem. So in retrospect, it was a great lesson.
You bet! Pride has been a huge motivator for me in being self-taught as far as I currently am and I mentioned that. But I also mentioned there can be another kind of pride; the pride of being a student of...
I think it has been most interesting that David Steinmeyer and Bob Mcchesney are both self-taught! That's pretty impressive! Especially considering that Bob invented doodle-tonguing! Imagine if he would have been a student and his teacher told him he was going down a blind alley with that technique!
Torobone, I think you had a "hear him now and believe him later" experience! I think we all have them if we stop to think about it.
Here's my theory:
We can all self-teach until we hit the wall. Then we find a teacher. Where do we hit the wall? A school-aged child hits it when he takes his horn out of his case. An adult might hit it there as well, or he might hit it a week, month, year or somewhere down the road. Apparently David and Bob never hit it. I haven't hit it yet, but I've been close. So I think I'll be hitting it sometime soon.
Quote from: patrickosmith on Aug 12, 2016, 03:40AMEven the the most experienced Olympic athletes have trainers and coaches. If your competing against someone with years of training from a great coach, while you have none (or a mediocre one), your likely to be the inferior player in that binary choice.
I was so waiting for someone to come up with that!
It's hard for me to argue against that concept, except that playing the trombone is not in the Olympics. It's also not a sport, game or athletic event - normally.
Anyway, I also agree that is has been interesting thus far and is helping to evolve my own attitude about it - if that doesn't make me a hypocrite.
...Geezer
I'm always a little leery of the 40+ year old player who proudly states they have never had a lesson. Very few of these players do not have a flaw that could be fixed with a lesson or two. But, having reached their current level on their own, their pride takes over and they don't want to break their "string" of being self-taught.
As an adult, the responsibility for learning and and development is always on the student. A senior high school student, after 12 years of schooling, might very well have more years of experience learning than many of their teachers have teaching. Applying this to teaching advanced trombonists, where does the teacher learn the necessary teaching skills to pass along their knowledge? Well, we do have this section called pedagogy to discuss things. References have a lot to do in finding a good teacher as well.
I play mostly tenor, but I took a lesson last Christmas on bass to ostensibly work on the independent valve setup of my Xeno bass. I also had a bit of a "hitch in my giddyup" with my bass that I was looking to solve. This teacher reached out to me based on a post on this forum, plus I had a sterling recommendation from a good friend. At the lesson, which went about 100 minutes, we went through a bunch of things, none that seemed impressive to me at the time, but a number of things have subsequently become clearer to me, and I can't even remember why I was having the "hitch" problem. So in retrospect, it was a great lesson.
You bet! Pride has been a huge motivator for me in being self-taught as far as I currently am and I mentioned that. But I also mentioned there can be another kind of pride; the pride of being a student of...
I think it has been most interesting that David Steinmeyer and Bob Mcchesney are both self-taught! That's pretty impressive! Especially considering that Bob invented doodle-tonguing! Imagine if he would have been a student and his teacher told him he was going down a blind alley with that technique!
Torobone, I think you had a "hear him now and believe him later" experience! I think we all have them if we stop to think about it.
Here's my theory:
We can all self-teach until we hit the wall. Then we find a teacher. Where do we hit the wall? A school-aged child hits it when he takes his horn out of his case. An adult might hit it there as well, or he might hit it a week, month, year or somewhere down the road. Apparently David and Bob never hit it. I haven't hit it yet, but I've been close. So I think I'll be hitting it sometime soon.
Quote from: patrickosmith on Aug 12, 2016, 03:40AMEven the the most experienced Olympic athletes have trainers and coaches. If your competing against someone with years of training from a great coach, while you have none (or a mediocre one), your likely to be the inferior player in that binary choice.
I was so waiting for someone to come up with that!
It's hard for me to argue against that concept, except that playing the trombone is not in the Olympics. It's also not a sport, game or athletic event - normally.
Anyway, I also agree that is has been interesting thus far and is helping to evolve my own attitude about it - if that doesn't make me a hypocrite.
...Geezer
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ttf_timothy42b
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Being Self-Taught
What is a wall? Is it not just a bad habit?
Could you avoid a bad habit if kept on the right path? And not need to unlearn it? Bad habits hurt you twice.
Could you avoid a bad habit if kept on the right path? And not need to unlearn it? Bad habits hurt you twice.
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ttf_patrickosmith
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: patrickosmith on Aug 12, 2016, 03:40AMEven the the most experienced Olympic athletes have trainers and coaches. If you're competing against someone with years of training from a great coach, while you have none (or a mediocre one), your likely to be the inferior player in that binary choice.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AMsnip--
I was so waiting for someone to come up with that!
It's hard for me to argue against that concept, except that playing the trombone is not in the Olympics. It's also not a sport, game or athletic event - normally.
--snip
...Geezer
I often think that performing a trombone audition is similar to performing at the Olympics on the balance beam.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AMsnip--
I was so waiting for someone to come up with that!
It's hard for me to argue against that concept, except that playing the trombone is not in the Olympics. It's also not a sport, game or athletic event - normally.
--snip
...Geezer
I often think that performing a trombone audition is similar to performing at the Olympics on the balance beam.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: timothy42b on Aug 12, 2016, 04:37AMWhat is a wall? Is it not just a bad habit?
Could you avoid a bad habit if kept on the right path? And not need to unlearn it? Bad habits hurt you twice.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe. But I was thinking of "hitting a wall" as being an insurmountable obstacle that couldn't be figured out on one's own, as opposed to a single bad habit or three that impinges one's playing. There are those who put band-aids on bad habits and get so expert at it that you would have a very difficult time seeing that bad habit or if you could, then marvel at how well they can play anyway.
Quote from: patrickosmith on Aug 12, 2016, 04:45AMI often think that performing a trombone audition is similar to performing at the Olympics on the balance beam.
I can't and won't argue the validity of that mental concept. If it works for you, then it's gold.
For me, playing the trombone is a meager attempt at imitating a really good player; not in how he does it, but the results he gets. So it's kinda not me playing that horn. It's him. Shhhhhh! Don't tell him - whomever that might be.
...Geezer
Could you avoid a bad habit if kept on the right path? And not need to unlearn it? Bad habits hurt you twice.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe. But I was thinking of "hitting a wall" as being an insurmountable obstacle that couldn't be figured out on one's own, as opposed to a single bad habit or three that impinges one's playing. There are those who put band-aids on bad habits and get so expert at it that you would have a very difficult time seeing that bad habit or if you could, then marvel at how well they can play anyway.
Quote from: patrickosmith on Aug 12, 2016, 04:45AMI often think that performing a trombone audition is similar to performing at the Olympics on the balance beam.
I can't and won't argue the validity of that mental concept. If it works for you, then it's gold.
For me, playing the trombone is a meager attempt at imitating a really good player; not in how he does it, but the results he gets. So it's kinda not me playing that horn. It's him. Shhhhhh! Don't tell him - whomever that might be.
...Geezer
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ttf_Torobone
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AMYou bet! Pride has been a huge motivator for me in being self-taught as far as I currently am and I mentioned that. But I also mentioned there can be another kind of pride; the pride of being a student of...
Well, "being a student of" carries a certain transference of credentials.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AMI think it has been most interesting that David Steinmeyer and Bob Mcchesney are both self-taught! That's pretty impressive! Especially considering that Bob invented doodle-tonguing! Imagine if he would have been a student and his teacher told him he was going down a blind alley with that technique!
Actually, from Bob McChesney's Wikipedia Page:
"Mr. McChesney is a trombonist born in Maryland, and began studying trombone at the age of nine, and holds a bachelor's degree from State University of New York at Fredonia. He moved to Los Angeles in 1979."
His web page says: "primarily self-taught", which is different than "never had a lesson". If we were all self-taught, we wouldn't go to his clinics or buy his books! Certainly, noone taught him doodle tonguing.
My best teachers never discouraged me. At this point in my life, I choose my teachers, and I have had a couple of lessons where I just moved on. Are you afraid that a teacher would change something you hold dear?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AMTorobone, I think you had a "hear him now and believe him later" experience! I think we all have them if we stop to think about it.
Actually, no. We didn't discuss anything related to what I mentioned as a problem. The problem resolved itself as I worked following the lesson. Maybe I just figured it out myself, but I really think the lesson helped by just hearing the topics we did cover.
With the fine trombonist I visit a couple of times per year, what you said is quite true.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AM
Here's my theory:
We can all self-teach until we hit the wall. Then we find a teacher. Where do we hit the wall? A school-aged child hits it when he takes his horn out of his case. An adult might hit it there as well, or he might hit it a week, month, year or somewhere down the road. Apparently David and Bob never hit it. I haven't hit it yet, but I've been close. So I think I'll be hitting it sometime soon.
We can all teach ourselves at any time. You don't need to hit a wall to take a lesson, although this is one reason. I also take a lesson when I just feel that expert feedback would help, where I've learned things "so far".
My teacher sometimes points me in directions that I haven't thought of (The "unknown unknowns").
Well, "being a student of" carries a certain transference of credentials.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AMI think it has been most interesting that David Steinmeyer and Bob Mcchesney are both self-taught! That's pretty impressive! Especially considering that Bob invented doodle-tonguing! Imagine if he would have been a student and his teacher told him he was going down a blind alley with that technique!
Actually, from Bob McChesney's Wikipedia Page:
"Mr. McChesney is a trombonist born in Maryland, and began studying trombone at the age of nine, and holds a bachelor's degree from State University of New York at Fredonia. He moved to Los Angeles in 1979."
His web page says: "primarily self-taught", which is different than "never had a lesson". If we were all self-taught, we wouldn't go to his clinics or buy his books!
Certainly, noone taught him doodle tonguing.My best teachers never discouraged me. At this point in my life, I choose my teachers, and I have had a couple of lessons where I just moved on. Are you afraid that a teacher would change something you hold dear?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AMTorobone, I think you had a "hear him now and believe him later" experience! I think we all have them if we stop to think about it.
Actually, no. We didn't discuss anything related to what I mentioned as a problem. The problem resolved itself as I worked following the lesson. Maybe I just figured it out myself, but I really think the lesson helped by just hearing the topics we did cover.
With the fine trombonist I visit a couple of times per year, what you said is quite true.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 04:32AM
Here's my theory:
We can all self-teach until we hit the wall. Then we find a teacher. Where do we hit the wall? A school-aged child hits it when he takes his horn out of his case. An adult might hit it there as well, or he might hit it a week, month, year or somewhere down the road. Apparently David and Bob never hit it. I haven't hit it yet, but I've been close. So I think I'll be hitting it sometime soon.
We can all teach ourselves at any time. You don't need to hit a wall to take a lesson, although this is one reason. I also take a lesson when I just feel that expert feedback would help, where I've learned things "so far".
My teacher sometimes points me in directions that I haven't thought of (The "unknown unknowns").
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Torobone on Aug 12, 2016, 05:38AMWell, "being a student of" carries a certain transference of credentials.
Actually, from Bob McChesney's Wikipedia Page:
"Mr. McChesney is a trombonist born in Maryland, and began studying trombone at the age of nine, and holds a bachelor's degree from State University of New York at Fredonia. He moved to Los Angeles in 1979."
His web page says: "primarily self-taught", which is different than "never had a lesson". If we were all self-taught, we wouldn't go to his clinics or buy his books! Certainly, noone taught him doodle tonguing.
My best teachers never discouraged me. At this point in my life, I choose my teachers, and I have had a couple of lessons where I just moved on. Are you afraid that a teacher would change something you hold dear?
Actually, no. We didn't discuss anything related to what I mentioned as a problem. The problem resolved itself as I worked following the lesson. Maybe I just figured it out myself, but I really think the lesson helped by just hearing the topics we did cover.
With the fine trombonist I visit a couple of times per year, what you said is quite true.
We can all teach ourselves at any time. You don't need to hit a wall to take a lesson, although this is one reason. I also take a lesson when I just feel that expert feedback would help, where I've learned things "so far".
My teacher sometimes points me in directions that I haven't thought of (The "unknown unknowns").
I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you state. However, for the sake of discussion...
Well, then - am I truly self-taught? I had beaucoup lessons as a youth. About a year or so after I took up the 'bone, I had a productive session with Doug. Can I still state that I am "largely self-taught"? I always think of myself as being resourceful and Doug was a resource. Would I have been able to figure it out by myself, given my propensity to experiment? I'll never know. Now perhaps I could GREATLY stretch a point and state that having regular lessons is being EXTREMELY resourceful. But I think we both know that would be a bunch of hooey.
Still, I'll make the point that an isolated session IS being resourceful. I also view Bob Mcchesney's (and others') clinics and books as resources - same as observing successful fellow musicians is resourceful. Same as using information gleaned from social media, the library, phone conversations I have had, etc is being resourceful - as Sam might state - "by definition". Top heads of companies employ resources and yet they aren't relinquishing their self-direction by so doing. Can I do the same, or am I full of it?
I believe you have had good teachers or else have dismissed them. If I thought a teacher was trying to steer me down a certain path merely because that was HIS path and he didn't know any other way - then perhaps I would dismiss him as well if I didn't agree with it.
I believe Tommy Dorsey did the same thing!
Sorry about the colors, but it gets the job done!
...Geezer
Actually, from Bob McChesney's Wikipedia Page:
"Mr. McChesney is a trombonist born in Maryland, and began studying trombone at the age of nine, and holds a bachelor's degree from State University of New York at Fredonia. He moved to Los Angeles in 1979."
His web page says: "primarily self-taught", which is different than "never had a lesson". If we were all self-taught, we wouldn't go to his clinics or buy his books!
Certainly, noone taught him doodle tonguing.My best teachers never discouraged me. At this point in my life, I choose my teachers, and I have had a couple of lessons where I just moved on. Are you afraid that a teacher would change something you hold dear?
Actually, no. We didn't discuss anything related to what I mentioned as a problem. The problem resolved itself as I worked following the lesson. Maybe I just figured it out myself, but I really think the lesson helped by just hearing the topics we did cover.
With the fine trombonist I visit a couple of times per year, what you said is quite true.
We can all teach ourselves at any time. You don't need to hit a wall to take a lesson, although this is one reason. I also take a lesson when I just feel that expert feedback would help, where I've learned things "so far".
My teacher sometimes points me in directions that I haven't thought of (The "unknown unknowns").
I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you state. However, for the sake of discussion...
Well, then - am I truly self-taught? I had beaucoup lessons as a youth. About a year or so after I took up the 'bone, I had a productive session with Doug. Can I still state that I am "largely self-taught"? I always think of myself as being resourceful and Doug was a resource. Would I have been able to figure it out by myself, given my propensity to experiment? I'll never know. Now perhaps I could GREATLY stretch a point and state that having regular lessons is being EXTREMELY resourceful. But I think we both know that would be a bunch of hooey.
Still, I'll make the point that an isolated session IS being resourceful. I also view Bob Mcchesney's (and others') clinics and books as resources - same as observing successful fellow musicians is resourceful. Same as using information gleaned from social media, the library, phone conversations I have had, etc is being resourceful - as Sam might state - "by definition". Top heads of companies employ resources and yet they aren't relinquishing their self-direction by so doing. Can I do the same, or am I full of it?
I believe you have had good teachers or else have dismissed them. If I thought a teacher was trying to steer me down a certain path merely because that was HIS path and he didn't know any other way - then perhaps I would dismiss him as well if I didn't agree with it.
I believe Tommy Dorsey did the same thing!
Sorry about the colors, but it gets the job done!
...Geezer
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ttf_timothy42b
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Being Self-Taught
A wall is not always a bad habit, but it's a matter of perspective.
When it's a bad habit, it's an error you are making.
When it's not, it's a skill or method you have yet to stumble on. But that means your current okay habit is not working. It may not be a bad habit but it is a habit. (I'm going to connect it up your honor.)
I don't mean to speak dogmatically, just using shorthand here. I'm sure it's not this simple or certain.
Habits inherently prevent acquiring new skills, even when they are good ones. Consistency can be the enemy of the new. Error can be the raw material of improvement, if you're lucky to have one in the right direction.
A rigid teacher might prevent your lucky error just as easily as the right teacher steers you into it. On average you're safer with the teacher, but I guess YMMV. I need a teacher regardless because observing myself is not one of my strengths, so that interaction complicates things.
When it's a bad habit, it's an error you are making.
When it's not, it's a skill or method you have yet to stumble on. But that means your current okay habit is not working. It may not be a bad habit but it is a habit. (I'm going to connect it up your honor.)
I don't mean to speak dogmatically, just using shorthand here. I'm sure it's not this simple or certain.
Habits inherently prevent acquiring new skills, even when they are good ones. Consistency can be the enemy of the new. Error can be the raw material of improvement, if you're lucky to have one in the right direction.
A rigid teacher might prevent your lucky error just as easily as the right teacher steers you into it. On average you're safer with the teacher, but I guess YMMV. I need a teacher regardless because observing myself is not one of my strengths, so that interaction complicates things.
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ttf_Bob Riddle
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:40 pm
Being Self-Taught
I really appreciated my teachers while I was young and starting out. They all gave me DIRECTION in one way or another. it was still up to me to apply and understand what I had been told. We all benefit from comments/advice from anyone,not just great players or even musicians. Some of the best advice I've gotten over the years has come from audience members,fans of what we all do: PERFORM,mostly blending into an ensemble.
Self -teaching can be a great thing if you brutally honest with yourself and have an extremely open mind. There is always more to learn more musically as you progress as a proficient trombonist. A lot of times the things that really advance you musically as a player are simple things involving musicality.I pretty much feel that most of my students are "coached" by me rather than "taught". I try to give ideas and techniques that have worked well for me in different musical situations and let the student work things out. I will only give advice such as this sounds better than this "to me".I'm no be it all or end it all authority, and I believe there are many different valid interpretations to music.(creativity).
As far as "hitting a wall" we all do from time to time in one way or another. It has been told to me the best thing is to take a step or two back,relax analyze the issue.Usually it is some small flaw in one's technique.
I hope my thoughts,comments are still within the parameters of this discussion.
From a pretty darn good player who is still learning every moment of every day.
Bob R
P.S. Geezer,You are the BEST!
Self -teaching can be a great thing if you brutally honest with yourself and have an extremely open mind. There is always more to learn more musically as you progress as a proficient trombonist. A lot of times the things that really advance you musically as a player are simple things involving musicality.I pretty much feel that most of my students are "coached" by me rather than "taught". I try to give ideas and techniques that have worked well for me in different musical situations and let the student work things out. I will only give advice such as this sounds better than this "to me".I'm no be it all or end it all authority, and I believe there are many different valid interpretations to music.(creativity).
As far as "hitting a wall" we all do from time to time in one way or another. It has been told to me the best thing is to take a step or two back,relax analyze the issue.Usually it is some small flaw in one's technique.
I hope my thoughts,comments are still within the parameters of this discussion.
From a pretty darn good player who is still learning every moment of every day.
Bob R
P.S. Geezer,You are the BEST!
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Being Self-Taught
Thank you, Bob!
Not wishing to drop any names here, but I know you have had a couple of the best teachers, coaches, mentors - not only from a trombone standpoint, but from a musicality standpoint as well! And let's face it; past a certain point, it's the musicality aspect (not to neglect articulation - wink, wink) that separates the honkers from the playahs!
...Geezer
Not wishing to drop any names here, but I know you have had a couple of the best teachers, coaches, mentors - not only from a trombone standpoint, but from a musicality standpoint as well! And let's face it; past a certain point, it's the musicality aspect (not to neglect articulation - wink, wink) that separates the honkers from the playahs!
...Geezer
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ttf_timothy42b
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Being Self-Taught
The concert I played last night was an optional one, as a fill in with a band that's just too far and on the wrong night to play with.
I agreed because I'd be playing second to an awesome first player. Every gig next to someone good IS a lesson, if you try to learn from it.
My wife agreed to come along because we had a trombone feature programmed she'd never heard.
They cut it, we ran short of time. My wife [s]went ballistic[/s] er, was displeased and [s]ranted[/s] expressed some concern to the director afterwords.
Long story short, the band left, the first and I played it through anyway.
Probably they won't call me again. Hee, hee.
I agreed because I'd be playing second to an awesome first player. Every gig next to someone good IS a lesson, if you try to learn from it.
My wife agreed to come along because we had a trombone feature programmed she'd never heard.
They cut it, we ran short of time. My wife [s]went ballistic[/s] er, was displeased and [s]ranted[/s] expressed some concern to the director afterwords.
Long story short, the band left, the first and I played it through anyway.
Probably they won't call me again. Hee, hee.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: timothy42b on Aug 12, 2016, 06:14AMA wall is not always a bad habit, but it's a matter of perspective.
When it's a bad habit, it's an error you are making.
When it's not, it's a skill or method you have yet to stumble on. But that means your current okay habit is not working. It may not be a bad habit but it is a habit. (I'm going to connect it up your honor.)
I don't mean to speak dogmatically, just using shorthand here. I'm sure it's not this simple or certain.
Habits inherently prevent acquiring new skills, even when they are good ones. Consistency can be the enemy of the new. Error can be the raw material of improvement, if you're lucky to have one in the right direction.
A rigid teacher might prevent your lucky error just as easily as the right teacher steers you into it. On average you're safer with the teacher, but I guess YMMV. I need a teacher regardless because observing myself is not one of my strengths, so that interaction complicates things.
Whew! Tim! You're deep. Been reading again, huh? lol
Okay. I don't read that much, but I disagree with habits preventing one from learning new skills. Many, many things I do throughout the day are habits; flossing my teeth, making coffee, etc. They haven't prevented me from learning how to floss better or make better coffee if I stumble across something myself or come across someone who inspires me to do better, even if I have historically flossed my teeth badly and have historically made terrible-tasting coffee. What prevents me from learning new and maybe better habits is the limitations of my own mind. Perhaps we are actually on the same page. I don't know because I'm not sure I understand your statements.
I agree about the chance encounters. But on average, we are safer with a teacher? Well, there simply aren't enough numbers to crunch to solve that assertion. So it's like trying to argue that on average, we will play better with a King in our hands as compared to a Kanstul. I mean, okay. Who could argue - the number of Kings sold have far outpaced the number of Kanstuls sold - if that even means anything. Similarly, the number of those who have been taught vs those who have self-taught is probably as wide or wider than the above example. But does it mean safety in numbers?
If YOU need a teacher because you feel inadequate in self-teaching due to not being in tune with feedback, then YOU need a teacher. No argument there. You ought to know! I feel that I have a pretty good but never-the-less limited ability to connect the dots through my own feedback, casual observations, conversations and experiments. I'm also getting the idea that someone else whom we might call a teacher, coach or mentor could inspire me or otherwise show me how to make more and better connections. Isn't learning all about making connections? Isn't that what we call "Aha moments"?
...Geezer
When it's a bad habit, it's an error you are making.
When it's not, it's a skill or method you have yet to stumble on. But that means your current okay habit is not working. It may not be a bad habit but it is a habit. (I'm going to connect it up your honor.)
I don't mean to speak dogmatically, just using shorthand here. I'm sure it's not this simple or certain.
Habits inherently prevent acquiring new skills, even when they are good ones. Consistency can be the enemy of the new. Error can be the raw material of improvement, if you're lucky to have one in the right direction.
A rigid teacher might prevent your lucky error just as easily as the right teacher steers you into it. On average you're safer with the teacher, but I guess YMMV. I need a teacher regardless because observing myself is not one of my strengths, so that interaction complicates things.
Whew! Tim! You're deep. Been reading again, huh? lol
Okay. I don't read that much, but I disagree with habits preventing one from learning new skills. Many, many things I do throughout the day are habits; flossing my teeth, making coffee, etc. They haven't prevented me from learning how to floss better or make better coffee if I stumble across something myself or come across someone who inspires me to do better, even if I have historically flossed my teeth badly and have historically made terrible-tasting coffee. What prevents me from learning new and maybe better habits is the limitations of my own mind. Perhaps we are actually on the same page. I don't know because I'm not sure I understand your statements.
I agree about the chance encounters. But on average, we are safer with a teacher? Well, there simply aren't enough numbers to crunch to solve that assertion. So it's like trying to argue that on average, we will play better with a King in our hands as compared to a Kanstul. I mean, okay. Who could argue - the number of Kings sold have far outpaced the number of Kanstuls sold - if that even means anything. Similarly, the number of those who have been taught vs those who have self-taught is probably as wide or wider than the above example. But does it mean safety in numbers?
If YOU need a teacher because you feel inadequate in self-teaching due to not being in tune with feedback, then YOU need a teacher. No argument there. You ought to know! I feel that I have a pretty good but never-the-less limited ability to connect the dots through my own feedback, casual observations, conversations and experiments. I'm also getting the idea that someone else whom we might call a teacher, coach or mentor could inspire me or otherwise show me how to make more and better connections. Isn't learning all about making connections? Isn't that what we call "Aha moments"?
...Geezer
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ttf_Torobone
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Being Self-Taught
We can make so many assumptions. We are really into the realm of having a teacher or not, rather than being completely self-taught. Ideas and feedback are everywhere, unless you have no internet, books, or recordings.
I'm imagining a touching story of a lone survivor of a shipwreck, where one of the items washed ashore is a trombone. The person, initially a young child, opens the case, after a few weeks, learns how to put the bone together, etc. A few decades later, he/she is rescued and everyone is enthralled with the marvelous playing. World peace ensues.
Even with a teacher, understanding and acting on feedback is up to the student. Otherwise we get Florence Foster Jenkins.
I'm imagining a touching story of a lone survivor of a shipwreck, where one of the items washed ashore is a trombone. The person, initially a young child, opens the case, after a few weeks, learns how to put the bone together, etc. A few decades later, he/she is rescued and everyone is enthralled with the marvelous playing. World peace ensues.
Even with a teacher, understanding and acting on feedback is up to the student. Otherwise we get Florence Foster Jenkins.
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ttf_timothy42b
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Torobone on Aug 12, 2016, 09:42AM
Even with a teacher, understanding and acting on feedback is up to the student. Otherwise we get Florence Foster Jenkins.
There's a new movie about her, I can't wait to see it.
Might bring ear plugs.
Even with a teacher, understanding and acting on feedback is up to the student. Otherwise we get Florence Foster Jenkins.
There's a new movie about her, I can't wait to see it.
Might bring ear plugs.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Torobone on Aug 12, 2016, 09:42AMWe can make so many assumptions. We are really into the realm of having a teacher or not, rather than being completely self-taught. Ideas and feedback are everywhere, unless you have no internet, books, or recordings.
I'm imagining a touching story of a lone survivor of a shipwreck, where one of the items washed ashore is a trombone. The person, initially a young child, opens the case, after a few weeks, learns how to put the bone together, etc. A few decades later, he/she is rescued and everyone is enthralled with the marvelous playing. World peace ensues.
Even with a teacher, understanding and acting on feedback is up to the student. Otherwise we get Florence Foster Jenkins.
When it comes down to it, how many of us are truly self-taught? I'm not. I can see now that I am largely self-taught. I had a number of lessons as a youth, some 48 years ago and a single session with Doug more recently. Unless we could possibly live in total isolation, then we are taught by those around us and all that's available to us.
But I guess the crux of this thread was a query as to who among us considers themselves, for the most part, being self-taught. And possibly more importantly - why. There has been some pretty cool inputs.
I've recently become aware of some darn good players who were initially taught by an illustrious teacher. But after a certain point, they self-taught. So, if we reach a certain level of ability and we then go for the next 20-30 years on our own, are we now largely self-taught? Or will we always be Mr. X's student? Personally, I would kinda like it if I had been initially taught by Mr. X and I could aspire to regard myself as a successful student of his who has gone out on his own. Perhaps it's not too late...
...Geezer
I'm imagining a touching story of a lone survivor of a shipwreck, where one of the items washed ashore is a trombone. The person, initially a young child, opens the case, after a few weeks, learns how to put the bone together, etc. A few decades later, he/she is rescued and everyone is enthralled with the marvelous playing. World peace ensues.
Even with a teacher, understanding and acting on feedback is up to the student. Otherwise we get Florence Foster Jenkins.
When it comes down to it, how many of us are truly self-taught? I'm not. I can see now that I am largely self-taught. I had a number of lessons as a youth, some 48 years ago and a single session with Doug more recently. Unless we could possibly live in total isolation, then we are taught by those around us and all that's available to us.
But I guess the crux of this thread was a query as to who among us considers themselves, for the most part, being self-taught. And possibly more importantly - why. There has been some pretty cool inputs.
I've recently become aware of some darn good players who were initially taught by an illustrious teacher. But after a certain point, they self-taught. So, if we reach a certain level of ability and we then go for the next 20-30 years on our own, are we now largely self-taught? Or will we always be Mr. X's student? Personally, I would kinda like it if I had been initially taught by Mr. X and I could aspire to regard myself as a successful student of his who has gone out on his own. Perhaps it's not too late...
...Geezer
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ttf_Torobone
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 02:09PMI've recently become aware of some darn good players who were initially taught by an illustrious teacher. But after a certain point, they self-taught. So, if we reach a certain level of ability and we then go for the next 20-30 years on our own, are we now largely self-taught? Or will we always be Mr. X's student? Personally, I would kinda like it if I had been initially taught by Mr. X and I could aspire to regard myself as a successful student of his who has gone out on his own. Perhaps it's not too late...
...Geezer
I think that's called finding your own voice.
...Geezer
I think that's called finding your own voice.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Torobone on Aug 13, 2016, 07:54AMI think that's called finding your own voice.
Yes. And it could also be thought of as still being attached to a beloved teacher one once had.
I'll post this as a rhetorical question b/c I know guys don't like to put it out there. How many have had a teacher who has made such a profound impact on you that you still hold them in the highest esteem, even though they may be retired, out of touch or gone? Just something to reflect upon...
...Geezer
Yes. And it could also be thought of as still being attached to a beloved teacher one once had.
I'll post this as a rhetorical question b/c I know guys don't like to put it out there. How many have had a teacher who has made such a profound impact on you that you still hold them in the highest esteem, even though they may be retired, out of touch or gone? Just something to reflect upon...
...Geezer
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ttf_watermailonman
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:36 pm
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 12, 2016, 02:09PMWhen it comes down to it, how many of us are truly self-taught? I'm not. I can see now that I am largely self-taught. I had a number of lessons as a youth, some 48 years ago and a single session with Doug more recently. Unless we could possibly live in total isolation, then we are taught by those around us and all that's available to us.
But I guess the crux of this thread was a query as to who among us considers themselves, for the most part, being self-taught. And possibly more importantly - why. There has been some pretty cool inputs.
I've recently become aware of some darn good players who were initially taught by an illustrious teacher. But after a certain point, they self-taught. So, if we reach a certain level of ability and we then go for the next 20-30 years on our own, are we now largely self-taught? Or will we always be Mr. X's student? Personally, I would kinda like it if I had been initially taught by Mr. X and I could aspire to regard myself as a successful student of his who has gone out on his own. Perhaps it's not too late...
...Geezer
The question if we consider ourself to be self taught because we no longer meet the teacher for lessons must be very different. As I said my first years I was practically self taught. I don't consider this to have helped me in any way. I did most things wrong until I met a real teacher when I was 15-16 years old. I started at 12. During these first critical years I learned everything myself and most things was wrong. I had a terrible smile embuschure and a "whole-hand-grip"on the slide. Could not name a single note and could not read any music. I was pretty much self taught and I have spent many, many years to relearn those first years. It had probably been better for me technically if I had not played anything those first four years. In high school I had to take some time off from all bandplaying, and to concentrate on tone-production and try to find a more relaxed way to approach the instrument. This was a tough period in my life. Then everything got better and I think my last lesson was in the late 1990-ies. I remember I had a single lesson back then, probably somewhere around 1996. I was 33 at that time and I had two small children at home to take care of.
Then I have had no more real lessons, but the things my good teacher said to me still helps me, and I still hear his words. In this aspect he is still around and helps me become a better player. I have also gotten some free advice now and then and I do take those serious... so even though I have no lessons I still work on those same things he taught me. I will probably learn from him for the rest of my life even though I take no lessons.
/Tom
But I guess the crux of this thread was a query as to who among us considers themselves, for the most part, being self-taught. And possibly more importantly - why. There has been some pretty cool inputs.
I've recently become aware of some darn good players who were initially taught by an illustrious teacher. But after a certain point, they self-taught. So, if we reach a certain level of ability and we then go for the next 20-30 years on our own, are we now largely self-taught? Or will we always be Mr. X's student? Personally, I would kinda like it if I had been initially taught by Mr. X and I could aspire to regard myself as a successful student of his who has gone out on his own. Perhaps it's not too late...
...Geezer
The question if we consider ourself to be self taught because we no longer meet the teacher for lessons must be very different. As I said my first years I was practically self taught. I don't consider this to have helped me in any way. I did most things wrong until I met a real teacher when I was 15-16 years old. I started at 12. During these first critical years I learned everything myself and most things was wrong. I had a terrible smile embuschure and a "whole-hand-grip"on the slide. Could not name a single note and could not read any music. I was pretty much self taught and I have spent many, many years to relearn those first years. It had probably been better for me technically if I had not played anything those first four years. In high school I had to take some time off from all bandplaying, and to concentrate on tone-production and try to find a more relaxed way to approach the instrument. This was a tough period in my life. Then everything got better and I think my last lesson was in the late 1990-ies. I remember I had a single lesson back then, probably somewhere around 1996. I was 33 at that time and I had two small children at home to take care of.
Then I have had no more real lessons, but the things my good teacher said to me still helps me, and I still hear his words. In this aspect he is still around and helps me become a better player. I have also gotten some free advice now and then and I do take those serious... so even though I have no lessons I still work on those same things he taught me. I will probably learn from him for the rest of my life even though I take no lessons.
/Tom
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: watermailonman on Aug 13, 2016, 09:38AM The question if we consider ourself to be self taught because we no longer meet the teacher for lessons must be very different. As I said my first years I was practically self taught. I don't consider this to have helped me in any way. I did most things wrong until I met a real teacher when I was 15-16 years old. I started at 12. During these first critical years I learned everything myself and most things was wrong. I had a terrible smile embuschure and a "whole-hand-grip"on the slide. Could not name a single note and could not read any music. I was pretty much self taught and I have spent many, many years to relearn those first years. It had probably been better for me technically if I had not played anything those first four years. In high school I had to take some time off from all bandplaying, and to concentrate on tone-production and try to find a more relaxed way to approach the instrument. This was a tough period in my life. Then everything got better and I think my last lesson was in the late 1990-ies. I remember I had a single lesson back then, probably somewhere around 1996. I was 33 at that time and I had two small children at home to take care of.
Then I have had no more real lessons, but the things my good teacher said to me still helps me, and I still hear his words. In this aspect he is still around and helps me become a better player. I have also gotten some free advice now and then and I do take those serious... so even though I have no lessons I still work on those same things he taught me. I will probably learn from him for the rest of my life even though I take no lessons.
/Tom
I think it's safe to state that ALL beginners of school age need to get started by a teacher, or else they may get themselves "Tom'd"! Apparently, learning the wrong way left deeply ingrained habits in you. I had them as well and I had lessons as a youth! So it's not a fail-safe approach either. By the time I got referred to a good trombone teacher, I was up against high school graduation and that was the end of that for me. If I had those better lessons from a better teacher earlier in my childhood, I might have taken my horn to college with me and then who knows. But I prefer to think how much more I appreciate what I can do right now because the opportunity wasn't handed to me - or you for that matter - you on a silver platter.
But with more mature and resourceful adults just starting, the question of the necessity of lessons is still up for grabs as far as I am concerned, although lessons shouldn't hurt them (us).
I can't set the world on fire - not even close - but it makes me happy every time I play. So I must be really happy, because I play a LOT! lol
...Geezer
Then I have had no more real lessons, but the things my good teacher said to me still helps me, and I still hear his words. In this aspect he is still around and helps me become a better player. I have also gotten some free advice now and then and I do take those serious... so even though I have no lessons I still work on those same things he taught me. I will probably learn from him for the rest of my life even though I take no lessons.
/Tom
I think it's safe to state that ALL beginners of school age need to get started by a teacher, or else they may get themselves "Tom'd"! Apparently, learning the wrong way left deeply ingrained habits in you. I had them as well and I had lessons as a youth! So it's not a fail-safe approach either. By the time I got referred to a good trombone teacher, I was up against high school graduation and that was the end of that for me. If I had those better lessons from a better teacher earlier in my childhood, I might have taken my horn to college with me and then who knows. But I prefer to think how much more I appreciate what I can do right now because the opportunity wasn't handed to me - or you for that matter - you on a silver platter.
But with more mature and resourceful adults just starting, the question of the necessity of lessons is still up for grabs as far as I am concerned, although lessons shouldn't hurt them (us).
I can't set the world on fire - not even close - but it makes me happy every time I play. So I must be really happy, because I play a LOT! lol
...Geezer
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ttf_LowrBrass
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Being Self-Taught
I'm losing track of "the question." Remind me, please?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 13, 2016, 08:21AMYes. And it could also be thought of as still being attached to a beloved teacher one once had.
I'll post this as a rhetorical question b/c I know guys don't like to put it out there. How many have had a teacher who has made such a profound impact on you that you still hold them in the highest esteem, even though they may be retired, out of touch or gone? Just something to reflect upon...
...Geezer
Is this only directed towards students of "The Illustrious Mr. X," not students of "That Brass Player Down the Street"...?
If someone made a profound impact on me (which all of my teachers have, because any impact on my playing feels profound, and all of my teachers have had some impact on how I think about the trombone), then... yeah, of course I hold them in the highest esteem. Cause and effect. They helped make me a better player. Therefore, they are awesome.
----
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 13, 2016, 11:18AMI think it's safe to state that ALL beginners of school age need to get started by a teacher, or else they may get themselves "Tom'd"!
But that question is still up for grabs as far as I am concerned - with more mature and resourceful adults just starting, although lessons certainly wouldn't hurt them (us) either.
Apparently, learning the wrong way left deeply ingrained habits in you. I had them as well. But think how much more you appreciate what you can do right now because it wasn't handed to you on a silver platter! I know I sure do! I can't set the world on fire - not even close - but it makes me happy every time I play. So I must be really happy, because I play a LOT! lol
...Geezer
"Silver platter"... Lesson students still need to work for it--not just the physicality of mastering the skill, but the mentality of figuring out what the heck the teacher is trying to communicate to you. It's a little like reading advice on TTF, except it's personalized advice from someone who can see and hear what you're doing wrong (and identify things you might not even know you're doing wrong!), instead of generic advice for common problems that may or may not apply to your situation.
Lessons can help give shape and direction and focus and more frequent "lightbulb moments" to what you're ultimately figuring out for yourself.
To Martin's point:
Quote from: Torobone on Aug 12, 2016, 09:42AMWe are really into the realm of having a teacher or not, rather than being completely self-taught. Ideas and feedback are everywhere, unless you have no internet, books, or recordings.
...
Even with a teacher, understanding and acting on feedback is up to the student. Otherwise we get Florence Foster Jenkins.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 13, 2016, 08:21AMYes. And it could also be thought of as still being attached to a beloved teacher one once had.
I'll post this as a rhetorical question b/c I know guys don't like to put it out there. How many have had a teacher who has made such a profound impact on you that you still hold them in the highest esteem, even though they may be retired, out of touch or gone? Just something to reflect upon...
...Geezer
Is this only directed towards students of "The Illustrious Mr. X," not students of "That Brass Player Down the Street"...?
If someone made a profound impact on me (which all of my teachers have, because any impact on my playing feels profound, and all of my teachers have had some impact on how I think about the trombone), then... yeah, of course I hold them in the highest esteem. Cause and effect. They helped make me a better player. Therefore, they are awesome.
----
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 13, 2016, 11:18AMI think it's safe to state that ALL beginners of school age need to get started by a teacher, or else they may get themselves "Tom'd"!
But that question is still up for grabs as far as I am concerned - with more mature and resourceful adults just starting, although lessons certainly wouldn't hurt them (us) either.
Apparently, learning the wrong way left deeply ingrained habits in you. I had them as well. But think how much more you appreciate what you can do right now because it wasn't handed to you on a silver platter! I know I sure do! I can't set the world on fire - not even close - but it makes me happy every time I play. So I must be really happy, because I play a LOT! lol
...Geezer
"Silver platter"... Lesson students still need to work for it--not just the physicality of mastering the skill, but the mentality of figuring out what the heck the teacher is trying to communicate to you. It's a little like reading advice on TTF, except it's personalized advice from someone who can see and hear what you're doing wrong (and identify things you might not even know you're doing wrong!), instead of generic advice for common problems that may or may not apply to your situation.
Lessons can help give shape and direction and focus and more frequent "lightbulb moments" to what you're ultimately figuring out for yourself.
To Martin's point:
Quote from: Torobone on Aug 12, 2016, 09:42AMWe are really into the realm of having a teacher or not, rather than being completely self-taught. Ideas and feedback are everywhere, unless you have no internet, books, or recordings.
...
Even with a teacher, understanding and acting on feedback is up to the student. Otherwise we get Florence Foster Jenkins.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: LowrBrass on Aug 13, 2016, 12:27PMI'm losing track of "the question." Remind me, please?
Is this only directed towards students of "The Illustrious Mr. X," not students of "That Brass Player Down the Street"...?
If someone made a profound impact on me (which all of my teachers have, because any impact on my playing feels profound, and all of my teachers have had some impact on how I think about the trombone), then... yeah, of course I hold them in the highest esteem. Cause and effect. They helped make me a better player. Therefore, they are awesome.
----
"Silver platter"... Lesson students still need to work for it--not just the physicality of mastering the skill, but the mentality of figuring out what the heck the teacher is trying to communicate to you. It's a little like reading advice on TTF, except it's personalized advice from someone who can see and hear what you're doing wrong (and identify things you might not even know you're doing wrong!), instead of generic advice for common problems that may or may not apply to your situation.
Lessons can help give shape and direction and focus and more frequent "lightbulb moments" to what you're ultimately figuring out for yourself.
To Martin's point:
Lol. I knew when I typed "silver platter", it was going to cause concern. From my perspective, "silver platter" means those households that could have afforded a better student horn instead of a piece of junk and lessons from someone who actually played trombone - as opposed to someone who had to read to me "how to" from the front of a lesson book. Those items may seem "duh" to most, however they were lacking for me.
But I'm not throwing my 'rents under a bus. They tried the only way they knew how back then. And I could have risen above all of that. I knew I sounded terrible. I knew what a good trombone sounded like. I tried various experiments on my own to get a better sound. I couldn't find it.
My local band director was brilliant at teaching trumpets but also clueless for some odd reason about the trombone and the rest of my section-mates knew it as well, so it wasn't just me. Then I had a second outside teacher who was a nice guy and had music in his veins, but not a clue as to how one should play trombone. I regard him highly never-the-less because he did teach me a little musicality and he did know his limitations to the extent that he referred me up the food chain to an excellent trombone player/teacher. But by the time I got to him, it was too little, too late and that era in my life was over. I still have high regards for him as well, though. He went on to play with some notable groups. Wish I would have somehow gotten to him a year or two sooner!
That's my story and I suppose it colors my perception to this day.
...Geezer
Is this only directed towards students of "The Illustrious Mr. X," not students of "That Brass Player Down the Street"...?
If someone made a profound impact on me (which all of my teachers have, because any impact on my playing feels profound, and all of my teachers have had some impact on how I think about the trombone), then... yeah, of course I hold them in the highest esteem. Cause and effect. They helped make me a better player. Therefore, they are awesome.
----
"Silver platter"... Lesson students still need to work for it--not just the physicality of mastering the skill, but the mentality of figuring out what the heck the teacher is trying to communicate to you. It's a little like reading advice on TTF, except it's personalized advice from someone who can see and hear what you're doing wrong (and identify things you might not even know you're doing wrong!), instead of generic advice for common problems that may or may not apply to your situation.
Lessons can help give shape and direction and focus and more frequent "lightbulb moments" to what you're ultimately figuring out for yourself.
To Martin's point:
Lol. I knew when I typed "silver platter", it was going to cause concern. From my perspective, "silver platter" means those households that could have afforded a better student horn instead of a piece of junk and lessons from someone who actually played trombone - as opposed to someone who had to read to me "how to" from the front of a lesson book. Those items may seem "duh" to most, however they were lacking for me.
But I'm not throwing my 'rents under a bus. They tried the only way they knew how back then. And I could have risen above all of that. I knew I sounded terrible. I knew what a good trombone sounded like. I tried various experiments on my own to get a better sound. I couldn't find it.
My local band director was brilliant at teaching trumpets but also clueless for some odd reason about the trombone and the rest of my section-mates knew it as well, so it wasn't just me. Then I had a second outside teacher who was a nice guy and had music in his veins, but not a clue as to how one should play trombone. I regard him highly never-the-less because he did teach me a little musicality and he did know his limitations to the extent that he referred me up the food chain to an excellent trombone player/teacher. But by the time I got to him, it was too little, too late and that era in my life was over. I still have high regards for him as well, though. He went on to play with some notable groups. Wish I would have somehow gotten to him a year or two sooner!
That's my story and I suppose it colors my perception to this day.
...Geezer
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ttf_Pre59
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 13, 2016, 01:21PM
My local band director was brilliant at teaching trumpets but also clueless for some odd reason about the trombone and the rest of my section-mates knew it as well, so it wasn't just me. Then I had a second outside teacher who was a nice guy and had music in his veins, but not a clue as to how one should play trombone.
I'm not surprised at all that a Trumpet teacher would be clueless about teaching the trombone. It's the slide; how would they understand about using the whole of the slide, let alone the finer points without having a lot of playing experience?
My local band director was brilliant at teaching trumpets but also clueless for some odd reason about the trombone and the rest of my section-mates knew it as well, so it wasn't just me. Then I had a second outside teacher who was a nice guy and had music in his veins, but not a clue as to how one should play trombone.
I'm not surprised at all that a Trumpet teacher would be clueless about teaching the trombone. It's the slide; how would they understand about using the whole of the slide, let alone the finer points without having a lot of playing experience?
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Pre59 on Aug 13, 2016, 03:34PMI'm not surprised at all that a Trumpet teacher would be clueless about teaching the trombone. It's the slide; how would they understand about using the whole of the slide, let alone the finer points without having a lot of playing experience?
I
how they are trained. And I don't know if it was just him or it was a widespread problem back then.
Band directors had to give weekly lessons to practically everyone in the band. Maybe they still do. I don't know how a band director could be expected to know the details about embouchure, etc unique to brass players. But he was a trumpet player. Thing is, he wasn't a very good trumpet player. He was musical, but he didn't sound right somehow and he knew it. It bothered him greatly. So maybe he didn't have much information on embouchure. Maybe not many of them did. Maybe I can't and shouldn't lay any blame on him. Maybe it was the system back then - as far as trying to learn anything as a "problem student" from a high school band director.
Maybe, for me it was a perfect storm; everything that could be out of whack was out of whack. I have come to know that the junker horn I used inherently had a stuffy tone in the lower/middle range - exactly where a beginner student would spend 95% of his time. Add to that a 12C mouthpiece - yeah a "beginner" mouthpiece - for me, of all kids - with probably the most generous chops in my whole class. Add to that, a violin teacher as my first teacher. No dis intended to violin players. But given that embouchure knowledge was scarce at that time at that level - and why would he even care about it - I was perfectly set up for failure.
Well, I pretty much have it all sorted out now - after about 48 or so years. And that is one of the reasons why I took it up again - to finally work it out. So I can highly identify with Tom's angst. But I bet that rough start helps to fuel both Tom's and my passion.
...Geezer
I
how they are trained. And I don't know if it was just him or it was a widespread problem back then. Band directors had to give weekly lessons to practically everyone in the band. Maybe they still do. I don't know how a band director could be expected to know the details about embouchure, etc unique to brass players. But he was a trumpet player. Thing is, he wasn't a very good trumpet player. He was musical, but he didn't sound right somehow and he knew it. It bothered him greatly. So maybe he didn't have much information on embouchure. Maybe not many of them did. Maybe I can't and shouldn't lay any blame on him. Maybe it was the system back then - as far as trying to learn anything as a "problem student" from a high school band director.
Maybe, for me it was a perfect storm; everything that could be out of whack was out of whack. I have come to know that the junker horn I used inherently had a stuffy tone in the lower/middle range - exactly where a beginner student would spend 95% of his time. Add to that a 12C mouthpiece - yeah a "beginner" mouthpiece - for me, of all kids - with probably the most generous chops in my whole class. Add to that, a violin teacher as my first teacher. No dis intended to violin players. But given that embouchure knowledge was scarce at that time at that level - and why would he even care about it - I was perfectly set up for failure.
Well, I pretty much have it all sorted out now - after about 48 or so years. And that is one of the reasons why I took it up again - to finally work it out. So I can highly identify with Tom's angst. But I bet that rough start helps to fuel both Tom's and my passion.
...Geezer
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ttf_Graham Martin
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Being Self-Taught
Things You Don't Learn in Music School:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIdrf-byxfk
And if you are into my kind of jazz, this video on 'Collective Improvisation in New Orleans Jazz' has some good tips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadpcjMB_2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIdrf-byxfk
And if you are into my kind of jazz, this video on 'Collective Improvisation in New Orleans Jazz' has some good tips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadpcjMB_2s
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ttf_savio
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Being Self-Taught
I see the trombone books are better today than before. They have more text that explain much more. I just got the Ben's basic. We didn't have such things when I was young. Internet has lot of information but it can be difficult to trust all of it.
All in all life is more easy today, but we loose some and win something as the world goes on.
Leif
All in all life is more easy today, but we loose some and win something as the world goes on.
Leif
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ttf_Pre59
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 13, 2016, 04:29PMI how they are trained. And I don't know if it was just him or it was a widespread problem back then.
Band directors had to give weekly lessons to practically everyone in the band. Maybe they still do. I don't know how a band director could be expected to know the details about embouchure, etc unique to brass players. But he was a trumpet player. Thing is, he wasn't a very good trumpet player. He was musical, but he didn't sound right somehow and he knew it. It bothered him greatly. So maybe he didn't have much information on embouchure. Maybe not many of them did. Maybe I can't and shouldn't lay any blame on him. Maybe it was the system back then - as far as trying to learn anything as a "problem student" from a high school band director.
Maybe, for me it was a perfect storm; everything that could be out of whack was out of whack. I have come to know that the junker horn I used inherently had a stuffy tone in the lower/middle range - exactly where a beginner student would spend 95% of his time. Add to that a 12C mouthpiece - yeah a "beginner" mouthpiece - for me, of all kids - with probably the most generous chops in my whole class. Add to that, a violin teacher as my first teacher. No dis intended to violin players. But given that embouchure knowledge was scarce at that time at that level - and why would he even care about it - I was perfectly set up for failure.
Well, I pretty much have it all sorted out now - after about 48 or so years. And that is one of the reasons why I took it up again - to finally work it out. So I can highly identify with Tom's angst. But I bet that rough start helps to fuel both Tom's and my passion.
...Geezer
I can usually tell a trombonists who's ben taught mainly by trumpet teachers by the "pump action" slide positions. i.e. fundamental positions being used at all times even though there much better alternatives to be had.
how they are trained. And I don't know if it was just him or it was a widespread problem back then. Band directors had to give weekly lessons to practically everyone in the band. Maybe they still do. I don't know how a band director could be expected to know the details about embouchure, etc unique to brass players. But he was a trumpet player. Thing is, he wasn't a very good trumpet player. He was musical, but he didn't sound right somehow and he knew it. It bothered him greatly. So maybe he didn't have much information on embouchure. Maybe not many of them did. Maybe I can't and shouldn't lay any blame on him. Maybe it was the system back then - as far as trying to learn anything as a "problem student" from a high school band director.
Maybe, for me it was a perfect storm; everything that could be out of whack was out of whack. I have come to know that the junker horn I used inherently had a stuffy tone in the lower/middle range - exactly where a beginner student would spend 95% of his time. Add to that a 12C mouthpiece - yeah a "beginner" mouthpiece - for me, of all kids - with probably the most generous chops in my whole class. Add to that, a violin teacher as my first teacher. No dis intended to violin players. But given that embouchure knowledge was scarce at that time at that level - and why would he even care about it - I was perfectly set up for failure.
Well, I pretty much have it all sorted out now - after about 48 or so years. And that is one of the reasons why I took it up again - to finally work it out. So I can highly identify with Tom's angst. But I bet that rough start helps to fuel both Tom's and my passion.
...Geezer
I can usually tell a trombonists who's ben taught mainly by trumpet teachers by the "pump action" slide positions. i.e. fundamental positions being used at all times even though there much better alternatives to be had.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: savio on Aug 14, 2016, 02:45AMI see the trombone books are better today than before. They have more text that explain much more. I just got the Ben's basic. We didn't have such things when I was young. Internet has lot of information but it can be difficult to trust all of it.
All in all life is more easy today, but we loose some and win something as the world goes on.
Leif
I agree. Printed matter these days is better than ever and there are so many cd's, etc available now than ever before - not to mention electronic hardware and software.
And yes, there is a lot of information on the Internet. Not all of it is good. But not all information available from any source is good. So it's really up to the individual to intelligently sift through it. And I believe it's good to be skeptical. If there was more skepticism or even cynicism today, there would be a lot less successful scams abounding, and perhaps better political choices.
I wouldn't want to be alive in any other time period. Now is my time. It may not be perfect but it's what we have.
Quote from: Pre59 on Aug 14, 2016, 03:44AMI can usually tell a trombonists who's ben taught mainly by trumpet teachers by the "pump action" slide positions. i.e. fundamental positions being used at all times even though there much better alternatives to be had.
There may be that and the head-dipping trumpet players all seem to do for their lower notes. So perhaps if a young wannabe trombone student sees his trumpet-teacher playing, he will try to imitate that. And maybe it will work, but maybe the student should be taught his own way - depending upon his own needs - to go from low to high or high to low.
Anyway, no system is perfect and all of this is not meant to discourage those who need to seek lessons. And yet it may serve to raise consciousness for selecting a teacher that is right for the individual's needs. And those needs vary from the extreme basic to the extreme advanced and all points in-between.
Quote from: Graham Martin on Aug 14, 2016, 02:10AMThings You Don't Learn in Music School:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIdrf-byxfk
And if you are into my kind of jazz, this video on 'Collective Improvisation in New Orleans Jazz' has some good tips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadpcjMB_2s
Good vids. I especially like the down-to-earth common sense stuff in the first one.
I also liked how Jason(?), the trombone player, found the right bass notes to accompany the simple melody line. And how the clarinet player found what I like to think of as an "alternate melody line", based upon the chord changes. I like to try practicing that by muting the melody line on BiaB and creating my own while watching the chords as they play. I'm pretty terrible at it, but sometimes I surprise myself! And it is that positive re-enforcement that encourages me to try again.
...Geezer
All in all life is more easy today, but we loose some and win something as the world goes on.
Leif
I agree. Printed matter these days is better than ever and there are so many cd's, etc available now than ever before - not to mention electronic hardware and software.
And yes, there is a lot of information on the Internet. Not all of it is good. But not all information available from any source is good. So it's really up to the individual to intelligently sift through it. And I believe it's good to be skeptical. If there was more skepticism or even cynicism today, there would be a lot less successful scams abounding, and perhaps better political choices.
I wouldn't want to be alive in any other time period. Now is my time. It may not be perfect but it's what we have.
Quote from: Pre59 on Aug 14, 2016, 03:44AMI can usually tell a trombonists who's ben taught mainly by trumpet teachers by the "pump action" slide positions. i.e. fundamental positions being used at all times even though there much better alternatives to be had.
There may be that and the head-dipping trumpet players all seem to do for their lower notes. So perhaps if a young wannabe trombone student sees his trumpet-teacher playing, he will try to imitate that. And maybe it will work, but maybe the student should be taught his own way - depending upon his own needs - to go from low to high or high to low.
Anyway, no system is perfect and all of this is not meant to discourage those who need to seek lessons. And yet it may serve to raise consciousness for selecting a teacher that is right for the individual's needs. And those needs vary from the extreme basic to the extreme advanced and all points in-between.
Quote from: Graham Martin on Aug 14, 2016, 02:10AMThings You Don't Learn in Music School:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIdrf-byxfk
And if you are into my kind of jazz, this video on 'Collective Improvisation in New Orleans Jazz' has some good tips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadpcjMB_2s
Good vids. I especially like the down-to-earth common sense stuff in the first one.
I also liked how Jason(?), the trombone player, found the right bass notes to accompany the simple melody line. And how the clarinet player found what I like to think of as an "alternate melody line", based upon the chord changes. I like to try practicing that by muting the melody line on BiaB and creating my own while watching the chords as they play. I'm pretty terrible at it, but sometimes I surprise myself! And it is that positive re-enforcement that encourages me to try again.
...Geezer
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ttf_anonymous
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Being Self-Taught
I played for 15 years before I took lessons at the Royal Conservatory. The teacher asked me to play any major scale double octave and I couldn't do it without flubbing the notes. My technique had holes and it limited what kind of music I could play. The Conservatory publishes a book called the Syllabus which defines the technical standards for each of their grade levels. I suggest that you get that book to progressively develop your scales and arpeggios.
Having said that, I don't think you have to be super technical to play good music so here's another approach if you don't want to hammer away at scales. Get a Zoom recorder and record yourself playing and then listen to it. It's amazing how many things will jump out at you. You can hear if you're playing out of tune on certain notes or whether your phrasing is lumpy.
I haven't taken lessons in years because I'm busy raising a family and working. I've found that recording and listening to the playback is the next best thing to taking lessons.
Having said that, I don't think you have to be super technical to play good music so here's another approach if you don't want to hammer away at scales. Get a Zoom recorder and record yourself playing and then listen to it. It's amazing how many things will jump out at you. You can hear if you're playing out of tune on certain notes or whether your phrasing is lumpy.
I haven't taken lessons in years because I'm busy raising a family and working. I've found that recording and listening to the playback is the next best thing to taking lessons.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Being Self-Taught
A couple months ago I started having sessions with a truly marvelous instructor - Bob Riddle. He's on this forum and teaches within the Pittsburgh area. Now I wish I would have started with him a lot sooner.
In just a couple sessions, he has coached me into an embouchure that has opened my tone up quite a bit to where others have noticed the improvement. His demonstrations and explanations are top notch. A lesson with him isn't just a lesson, it's a musical experience!
I see him about once a month or so and then spend the time in-between working on what I have learned. His approach is to encourage the mastery of technique and then it's application in a musical setting. He is not only a terrific teacher on trombone (and lower brass in general), he is a superb music teacher as well. Bob is a first-class musician through-and-through who happens to play lights out trombone.
So fortunate to be one of his students...
...Geezer
In just a couple sessions, he has coached me into an embouchure that has opened my tone up quite a bit to where others have noticed the improvement. His demonstrations and explanations are top notch. A lesson with him isn't just a lesson, it's a musical experience!
I see him about once a month or so and then spend the time in-between working on what I have learned. His approach is to encourage the mastery of technique and then it's application in a musical setting. He is not only a terrific teacher on trombone (and lower brass in general), he is a superb music teacher as well. Bob is a first-class musician through-and-through who happens to play lights out trombone.
So fortunate to be one of his students...
...Geezer
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Being Self-Taught
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Oct 30, 2016, 05:38AMA couple months ago I started having sessions with a truly marvelous instructor - Bob Riddle. He's on this forum and teaches within the Pittsburgh area. Now I wish I would have started with him a lot sooner.
In just a couple sessions, he has coached me into an embouchure that has opened my tone up quite a bit to where others have noticed the improvement. His demonstrations and explanations are top notch. A lesson with him isn't just a lesson, it's a musical experience!
I see him about once a month or so and then spend the time in-between working on what I have learned. His approach is to encourage the mastery of technique and then it's application in a musical setting. He is not only a terrific teacher on trombone (and lower brass in general), he is a superb music teacher as well. Bob is a first-class musician through-and-through who happens to play lights out trombone.
So fortunate to be one of his students...
...Geezer
Congratulations on making a connection with a teacher that really speaks to you. Enjoy the journey.
In just a couple sessions, he has coached me into an embouchure that has opened my tone up quite a bit to where others have noticed the improvement. His demonstrations and explanations are top notch. A lesson with him isn't just a lesson, it's a musical experience!
I see him about once a month or so and then spend the time in-between working on what I have learned. His approach is to encourage the mastery of technique and then it's application in a musical setting. He is not only a terrific teacher on trombone (and lower brass in general), he is a superb music teacher as well. Bob is a first-class musician through-and-through who happens to play lights out trombone.
So fortunate to be one of his students...
...Geezer
Congratulations on making a connection with a teacher that really speaks to you. Enjoy the journey.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Being Self-Taught
Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Oct 30, 2016, 04:51PMCongratulations on making a connection with a teacher that really speaks to you. Enjoy the journey.
Oh, I am!
He knows I like playing ballads with accompaniment and encourages me. He coached me into becoming very familiar with a few to the extent that I can experiment playing them in different styles.
Currently, I am listening to recordings to identify what basic elements makes a trombone artist unique from others. So now I am trying to play a couple ballads kinda the way Carl Fontana, Ira Nepus or Harold Betters might play them. Naturally, I can't keep up with their technique when they are on a roll. But it's a heck of a lot of fun attempting to play the ballads with some basic elements I have identified from each style. So for example, when I play a ballad with a basic Carl Fontana style, I'll try to mimic his articulation, lip vibrato and try to find notes that you wouldn't think could sound nice, but do anyway.
...Geezer
Oh, I am!
He knows I like playing ballads with accompaniment and encourages me. He coached me into becoming very familiar with a few to the extent that I can experiment playing them in different styles.
Currently, I am listening to recordings to identify what basic elements makes a trombone artist unique from others. So now I am trying to play a couple ballads kinda the way Carl Fontana, Ira Nepus or Harold Betters might play them. Naturally, I can't keep up with their technique when they are on a roll. But it's a heck of a lot of fun attempting to play the ballads with some basic elements I have identified from each style. So for example, when I play a ballad with a basic Carl Fontana style, I'll try to mimic his articulation, lip vibrato and try to find notes that you wouldn't think could sound nice, but do anyway.
...Geezer