TromboneChat

I went back and tried to take my personal views out of what I said. I'm sorry for making you feel attacked, I know what that's like and it's not fun. I respect your views and opinion and I should not have soapboxed. A little over-used to having to defend myself at every turn, I think.

Well, OTOH - don't beat yourself up too badly. You have had quite a while to digest & process everything. Some of us have had about 36 hours or so on this thread. I think we're doing pretty good, considering.

...Geezer

Since this is a "Business" thread I feel the following is on topic.

As I read more details about the animal rights orgs' lawsuit against Feld Entertainment it's clear that they engaged in dishonest and illegal tactics to create the appearance of grounds for the suit including paying someone to commit perjury.

I think we expect more ethical conduct from something called a "Humane Society" than whatever they think they can get away with.

There are certainly far more egregious animal abuse cases in the US than circus elephants and yet that's what they chose to spend millions of donor money on. It's damaging to their cause and gives real animal abusers cover by making it easy to cast doubt on them in future cases.

They wasted time and money on a problem that didn't need fixing and did a lot of damage that didn't need to be.  When government does that citizens are outraged and demand change but it doesn't appear the animal rights orgs have addressed the internal failures that brought all this together.

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jan 16, 2017, 04:15PMSince it's been made clear that dissenting opinions aren't welcome. I think it's in bad taste to continue to make points in favor of the circus's treatment of animals. The fact that no one is arguing is more out of kindness or censorship than lack of valid opposition.

I was very supporting of Jhereg's position at first, but this thread is rapidly becoming a soapbox for those who criticize proponents of animal rights. As a proponent of animal rights, I feel very much attacked by this thread.

Keep it up, and you'll see things get out of hand post haste.



Euph,

Looks like BOTH sides are going to keep poking this bear.  jhreg responded to a direct prompt from a moderator (none of us are perfect, not even our favorite mods), then you generously noted you were holding back, then Robert came back in... at this rate the thread will explode and be shut down. 

Any possibility you can open a thread on the subject in political discussions, so this remains about the business of music?

I think, for those who want to engage in such a discussion, the topic important enough to warrant its own thread in the right area, and NOT be glossed over because it is not appropriate in this one.

I'm not well enough informed to open one, and probably wouldn't last long with the acrimony that will likely ensue.  But that doesn't mean starting such a thread would not be a good idea.

Just askin'

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jan 16, 2017, 04:15PMSince it's been made clear that dissenting opinions aren't welcome. I think it's in bad taste to continue to make points in favor of the circus's treatment of animals. The fact that no one is arguing is more out of kindness or censorship than lack of valid opposition.

I was very supporting of Jhereg's position at first, but this thread is rapidly becoming a soapbox for those who criticize proponents of animal rights. As a proponent of animal rights, I feel very much attacked by this thread.

Keep it up, and you'll see things get out of hand post haste.


We don't reject dissenting opinions about treatment of animals, whether at RBBB or a cocker spaniel breeding farm.  But going on a soapbox about how "so and so" is evil incarnate relentlessly will generally get a rebuke.  Especially when it's fairly far off topic.  We are discussing the closing of Ringling; and how they treated their animals is very much secondary.

As has been pointed out, if you want to opine or rant on animal treatment in the circus, or in Sea World, or wherever, start another topic and we can go at it hammer and tongs.

Bruce,
Euph was specifically NOT ranting, which is why I thought he'd be a good one to start an appropriate thread.
Trying to not pour oil on flames that will obscure the subject of this thread.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 16, 2017, 05:38PMSince this is a "Business" thread I feel the following is on topic.



Since it's not "Business of Music," I feel you're wrong unless you're directly addressing the "Snake Charmer" act. The topic of animal abuse is suited only to Purely Politics.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 16, 2017, 06:48PMWe don't reject dissenting opinions about treatment of animals, whether at RBBB or a cocker spaniel breeding farm.  But going on a soapbox about how "so and so" is evil incarnate relentlessly will generally get a rebuke.  Especially when it's fairly far off topic.  We are discussing the closing of Ringling; and how they treated their animals is very much secondary.

As has been pointed out, if you want to opine or rant on animal treatment in the circus, or in Sea World, or wherever, start another topic and we can go at it hammer and tongs.

But it's perfectly OK for you to opine on animal treatment in the circus within this topic? Bruce, you've been one of the very few in this thread to raise issues about animal welfare. Most others are offering condolences or lamenting the loss of a way of life, and most of us are respecting another moderator's request that we cool down and keep things on-topic.

Jhereg has backed down and apologized. I've made no points about animal treatment in the circus or anywhere because I'm being polite. I think it's quite rude of you to keep making points about animal rights in your other posts when it's clear that your opposition can't answer back. You're like a dentist picking a fight with the guy in the chair who has five pounds of cotton stuffed in his mouth.

http://www.circusmusic.org/index.htm

"The Windjammers Unlimited is a 501(c)3 historical music society that is dedicated to the preservation of traditional music of the circus. This music is kept alive via live performances and recording sessions at the annual convention and summer meetings."

They just inducted Keith Green to their Hall of Fame.  Keith was the Red Unit's Bandleader through the time I used to play the circus in DC and Baltimore, and I think for many years after that.  He played trumpet on the show but he had also been a trombone player  - just like Brett Barlow, the current Red Unit Bandleader.

I would hate to see the tradition become merely "history."

This topic has continued to run off the rails whilst I slept. I am not impressed with any of those commenting away from the direct issue of a business closing and leading to the loss of employment .
I don't want to shut this, but I will if it runs away again.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 16, 2017, 09:05PM...

I would hate to see the tradition become merely "history."

Well, Minstrel Shows have become history.  Vaudeville has become history.

There are some areas in the World that seem to like circuses, but apparently it's not here in the US.

When I was young I looked forward to a chance to go to the circus.

Later on it became a bit pricey and I didn't go as often, but I still thought of it fondly.

I don't think it has the mass appeal that it once did.  I think that's kind of a generational thing. 

So if there is a lack of market, profitability goes down, eventually businesses close.  Sad to see the end of an era though. 

I think the golden age of the circus was when there was a large rural population and no television. If your lifestyle was getting up at dawn to feed, milk, and hay, then going to bed at dusk, the 'circus coming to town' must have been quite a spectacular (in the literal sense) event.

I'd still rather look at a circus than a video game, but kids probably get jaded when they can be wildly entertained through their whole waking hours, and see every possible and impossible thing accomplished with CGI. It seems like the things they'd do to modernize a circus would also make it more similar to other forms of entertainment. I'm sorry to see it go.

Their competition for family entertainment at the arena typically involves fewer people and moving parts: Globetrotters and Disney On Ice can likely break even with a MUCH smaller draw.

Their competition in the circus realm, namely Cirque du Soleil, appears to involve fewer people as well. They also have long runs in their own facilities, modern marketing, generally the appearance of a well oiled machine. Plus nothing on the animal side, where transportation and care costs are likely huge. No trains to maintain, for starters.

There are still small circuses around that set up their own tents down by the freeway, generally geared towards Latin American audiences around here. We also have local performing groups in circus acrobatics, fire arts, etc. that perform elements of a circus. Not all under one big top, alas, but these talents have outlets. 

It's sad for me to see a group disband, as opposed to "adapt and perform," but I suppose there's a time and place for everything. There's always a chance the name is revived down the road with a new, sustainable type of show.

 

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 16, 2017, 09:05PMhttp://www.circusmusic.org/index.htm

"The Windjammers Unlimited is a 501(c)3 historical music society that is dedicated to the preservation of traditional music of the circus. This music is kept alive via live performances and recording sessions at the annual convention and summer meetings."

They just inducted Keith Green to their Hall of Fame.  Keith was the Red Unit's Bandleader through the time I used to play the circus in DC and Baltimore, and I think for many years after that.  He played trumpet on the show but he had also been a trombone player  - just like Brett Barlow, the current Red Unit Bandleader.

I would hate to see the tradition become merely "history."

I'm going to write an article for Windjammers, I think for their Feb/Mar editions. It'll be about what the modern circus band is (was) like. If I get a copy I'll share it

Quote from: blast on Jan 17, 2017, 12:01AMThis topic has continued to run off the rails whilst I slept. I am not impressed with any of those commenting away from the direct issue of a business closing and leading to the loss of employment .
I don't want to shut this, but I will if it runs away again.

Chris Stearn

Understood. I'm very sorry for the trouble.

Animal discussions go here: http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,97476.0.html

Let's keep this to a discussion of RBBB folding and why.

A big "thank you" to Euph for starting a needed thread in a part of the forum he doesn't regularly follow!

I think I'll keep this on my little toy train layout for old-time's sake.

Not to sound grubby or insensitive, but I have to wonder if all of the B&B circus ephemera will suddenly go up in value.

...Geezer

Too soon?

Well, think about this. You will still have to put food on your table. I'm not posting about you having "sticky fingers". I'm posting about people giving you things they have a right to give to you - like a Ring Master's uniform? An elephant's head-dress? A lion-tamer's whip? A clown's tricycle? A B&B bass drum? Etc. I'm imagining all those things having value on the collector's market.

Sure, you're used to seeing all those things every day and probably take them for granted. Soon enough, sadly, it will all be gone. Look at stuff with fresh eyes. Maybe selling some collectible stuff given to you can be a little "severance pay" that you probably otherwise will not get.

About 25 years ago, wife & I took an Amazon river cruise. One day, after re-boarding the boat, I saw a young lady with a native tribal drum. She traded a portable radio for it. What a souvenir!!! Now that was using her brains! Just sayin'...

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 19, 2017, 06:08AM

About 25 years ago, wife & I took an Amazon river cruise. One day, after re-boarding the boat, I saw a young lady with a native tribal drum. She traded a portable radio for it. What a souvenir!!! Now that was using her brains! Just sayin'...

...Geezer

And somewhere in Africa, on the Swahili language "native tribal drum forum," someone is writing:


"I had Chinese-made 'tribal-drum-shaped object' that I trade for perfectly good radio. Gotta love tourists!"

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jan 19, 2017, 07:40AMAnd somewhere in Africa, on the Swahili language "native tribal drum forum," someone is writing:


"I had Chinese-made 'tribal-drum-shaped object' that I trade for perfectly good radio. Gotta love tourists!"

Lol. Usually. But in the above case I referenced, it was an 18-year old tribal chief. Quite an amazing young man - to be recognized by his tribe as chief as such an early age! The drum was certainly hand-made and used for tribal ceremonies. But being their chief, he realized that another drum could easily be made, while a radio (actually a small boom-box) could bring the world to his people. I believe he got the better deal and will, no doubt, be encouraging the members of his tribe to make things to trade for batteries on the next boat visit!

Anyway, my example was that many of us thought that drum was unobtainable. Everyone except that young lady - who knew how to approach them and knew what they really needed. And my point is that while the OP might be taking everything around her for granted, soon it will all be gone. And although those articles and others of their kind might seem unobtainable to her - you never know until you try.

...Geezer

Closing a business down is like killing something. I have been though it. It is painful, difficult and sad. The process of trying different things to stay in the game without giving up what you do is a often a lost cause. Realizing that the financial loses will devastate everything left in a sinking ship is an inevitable occurrence. Telling all the workers that there jobs are over is a very terrible thing to have to do. The worst thing is you cannot leak a possible closing to the workers or all your credit lines, customers and suppliers will abandon you effectively forcing a sooner close.

For me my company was a medium size graphics company. As regulations and taxes took more from the pie we tried to grow to make the overhead big enough to handle it. Then the collections process in the court system just killed us. We were a two generation company with long time employees.

This Circus made itself a legacy that entertained the world. The world changed and gave up on the Circus.

Again, closing a business down is like killing something.     

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jan 19, 2017, 07:40AMAnd somewhere in Africa, on the Swahili language "native tribal drum forum," someone is writing:


"I had Chinese-made 'tribal-drum-shaped object' that I trade for perfectly good radio. Gotta love tourists!"

I always thought the Amazon was in South America.

Ronnie

Quote from: ronnies on Jan 19, 2017, 11:41AMI always thought the Amazon was in South America. I think that just makes the story better.

Quote from: ronnies on Jan 19, 2017, 11:41AMI always thought the Amazon was in South America.

Ronnie

Ohhhhh!! I thought he meant he bought the tickets on Amazon.com!!!


Not really. You know---Americans and geography. We're always in de-Nile. We're also quite Volga!!

I don't see what your problem is, Euph.  The tourist swapped a Chinese made Boombox shaped opject for a Chinese made natimve drum shaped object.  The tourist could have spent more at the Souvenir Shop for an identical drum.

Everybody won.  The tourist got something not easily found at home and a source of great memories.  The Chief got a nice gewgaw that will entertain him until it needs new batteries (or maybe he can hook it up to a generator).

I enjoyed your Circus Band Blog very much! I too subbed in the circus band years ago, and it was a good experience! Your photos were fantastic too. The tragedy here is another loss to live music and the musicians that it employed.... But thank you so much for taking the time to do the blog and the photos. It was very enjoyable.

Quote from: jnoxon on Jan 23, 2017, 08:58AMI enjoyed your Circus Band Blog very much! I too subbed in the circus band years ago, and it was a good experience! Your photos were fantastic too. The tragedy here is another loss to live music and the musicians that it employed.... But thank you so much for taking the time to do the blog and the photos. It was very enjoyable.

Thanks! I'm glad you like it

Quote from: jnoxon on Jan 23, 2017, 08:58AMI enjoyed your Circus Band Blog very much! I too subbed in the circus band years ago, and it was a good experience! Your photos were fantastic too. The tragedy here is another loss to live music and the musicians that it employed.... But thank you so much for taking the time to do the blog and the photos. It was very enjoyable.

Thanks! I'm glad you like it