Another Conn 88H Leadpipe Question

[dmatlock421]

Does anyone know whether or not the Conn R leadpipe will fit and work properly with the new SL2547 slide. I recently purchased an SL2547 that was supplied with H, T, and X leadpipes. I had erroneously assumed, this being an 88H after all, that the X leadpipe would fit an old Remington mouthpiece, one with a Brown and Sharpe taper. It does not. The X leadpipe appears to be designed for modern, large-shank mouthpieces that use a Morse taper.

I have a small-shank Remington mouthpiece that I use on the rare occasions that I play my old Conn 6H. The problem is, every time I switch to the small-shank mouthpiece, it feels extremely tight and stuffy to me. Worse, I lose a significant amount of range, a fourth to a fifth. I'm encountering the same problem with the small-shank mouthpiece and the SL2547 slide, and it does not seem to be improving as I continue working with the new slide. If I use the X leadpipe with my old Remington mouthpiece, the range is magically back! Of course, the sound is complete crap because the mouthpiece does not seat properly in the leadpipe and it does not seal. If the R leadpipe fits the slide, THAT should not be a problem, right?

Seems I have three choices:
1) Switch to the R leadpipe, if it indeed fits the SL2547.
2) Switch to a large shank mouthpiece comparable to the old Remington mouthpiece, but with a Morse taper (a 5G, maybe? I'm not an experienced mouthpiece person, so recommendations on this option are definitely welcome).
3) Continue suffering with the small-shank Remington mouthpiece, hoping that time will resolve all the problems.

Thoughts and recommendations are definitely welcome!

Thanks.

[Matt K]

No, at least not without modification. Maybe. A tech could theoretically buff down .022" off of it and then it should fit but it may or may not play very well. It might also be possible sine the Conn pipes are two piece two swap out the mouthpiece receiver... but any of these options are basically experiments that you can't get your money back on if you don't like it.

I'd probably do #2 if I were you. If you like the Remington there's a good chance it's because of the rim. I don't know if the small shank ones are the same size but I have a similar feeling when I play a rim that is too small. Doug Elliot has a copy of the large remington rim in his LT series. So I'd probably start there. That way you can figure out if its the size that you like or something else that is making the small stuff stuffy. If it works, great you have a small shank that works too. If it doesn't, you'll have some idea where to go from there. He does have a really nice return policy too so if it doesn't work out, you can trade it around for something that does or just return it and do something more drastic with leadpipes if that's the direction you decide to go.

[GabrielRice]

What Matt said. You could also try a 5G and 5GS. If you can get your hands on one, a 5GL is sort of in between, also a nice slightly smaller version of a 5G.

[hyperbolica]

Geez.

Honestly, its time to ditch the Reynolds piece. The 2547 slide is kind of a pointless deviation from stock if you put a large shank piece in it. Don't get involved with weird combinations, standard mouthpieces should work fine with these components. Use the H pipe and a 5gs mouthpiece.

The Reynolds has a very rounded rim that cuts into your lip. I played one until about 11th grade, and my playing improved a lot when I switched.

I play a Doug Elliott xt104 f4 on my 2525 slide. I can't really recommend something for you, but the 5gs is a safe place to start.

If you're losing big chunks of range, you should probably spend more time practicing and/or with lessons. You need to stabilize the equipment. Maybe you need a teacher to help you do that.

[dmatlock421]

No, at least not without modification. Maybe. A tech could theoretically buff down .022" off of it and then it should fit but it may or may not play very well. It might also be possible sine the Conn pipes are two piece two swap out the mouthpiece receiver... but any of these options are basically experiments that you can't get your money back on if you don't like it.

I'd probably do #2 if I were you. If you like the Remington there's a good chance it's because of the rim. I don't know if the small shank ones are the same size but I have a similar feeling when I play a rim that is too small. Doug Elliot has a copy of the large remington rim in his LT series. So I'd probably start there. That way you can figure out if its the size that you like or something else that is making the small stuff stuffy. If it works, great you have a small shank that works too. If it doesn't, you'll have some idea where to go from there. He does have a really nice return policy too so if it doesn't work out, you can trade it around for something that does or just return it and do something more drastic with leadpipes if that's the direction you decide to go.

Matt K and GabeLangfur

Thanks for your responses to my question about the Conn R leadpipe. Definitely NOT the answer I wanted to hear, but knowing it will save me a lot of wasted time and energy.

Just FYI, my small-shank Remington mouthpiece is identical to the large-shank version except for the shank and obviously the bore. Looking for a new mouthpiece, the ideal one for me, I think, might be a large-shank Remington mouthpiece with a Morse Taper... Hmmm. Fat chance. Though I did see somewhere where you can purchase a new mouthpiece with a Remington (Brown and Sharpe, I presume) taper.

Upon reflection, I think the stuffiness that I'm talking about is maybe the resistance of blowing through the mouthpiece and horn. It feels like a good deal of my effort is being pushed back at me, and this appears to be causing me all sorts of problems with both range and flexibility.

Thanks for the Doug Elliot tip. I'll take a look at the website this evening.

[Matt K]

Just FYI, my small-shank Remington mouthpiece is identical to the large-shank version except for the shank and obviously the bore.

Have you had it measured? Even pieces that are nominally the same can be different and maybe the one you have was special ordered and the detail that they ordered it with a .99" rim or something didn't get passed down... or given that everything was done manually maybe it's just a mistake. Either way, I wouldn't merely assume that.

Looking for a new mouthpiece, the ideal one for me, I think, might be a large-shank Remington mouthpiece with a Morse Taper... Hmmm. Fat chance. Though I did see somewhere where you can purchase a new mouthpiece with a Remington (Brown and Sharpe, I presume) taper.

The outer taper really doesn't matter so long as it matches the receiver. I've been down that rabbit hole (Doug also makes "Remington" shanks which I tried briefly with a Shires pipe that had a Remington receiver. I was not able to differentiate the same leadpipe & mouthpiece with the different external taper reliably at all. But I can tell when the taper changes (either switching to a different Elliott shank # or Shires #). You'll have a much easier time of it if you can at least try the vast majority of equipment. That also doesn't address what you do when you want to play the small bore equipment. It may be that you do have the same size rim afterall but if the throat on the large shank is .276 or something and the throat on the small shank is like .231" it's going to feel WAY different. I'm admittedly not in the know about the Remington pieces... were the small shank ones intended to be used on alto perhaps? That might also have ramifications on the design choices they made. And an alto piece feels really weird on medium bore horns.

You could have a sleeve made for your Remington (http://brassark.com/mouthpieces.html) scroll down the "Sleeve System". They'll modify existing pieces.

Sleeve System
Bob Reeves developed his sleeve system on his trumpet mouthpiece to help players fine tune the gap between the end of their mouthpiece and the start of the leadpipe. We thought it interesting to develop a similar system to allow trombonists to adjust the penetration of their shank into their leadpipe. Not only does it allow you tailor your piece to your instrument, but it also allows you to change the shank taper (i.e. Morse, Remington, Euro etc) without changing to an entirely different mouthpiece or ordering a new backbore.

The Reeves/Ark sleeve system is available for no additional charge when ordering one of our mouthpieces. Each sleeve is $35 each in silver. An existing mouthpiece can be adapted for sleeves for $50 in silver and if you're interested in that please send me an E-mail for instructions on delivery times.

That wont work for large -> small, there isn't enough material but it'll let you use both tapers. So you still have to figure out what to do for small shank stuff. But again, I'd really consider strongly trying an Elliott since he already has a copy of the rim you like and can make an underpart meant for the horn you're using. A 525/547 slide works really well with something like an LT E / E5 combination. I disagree about the assessment that the large shank 525/547 slide is superfluous - my main slide is actually a 525/547 with the "X" leadpipe; however, a setup like the one I just mentioned should work very well with the horn you have and requires no experimentation. It's a little pricey up front but as someone who has done... more modifications than I'd like... it's a lot cheaper than guessing at trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

[BGuttman]

For what it's worth:

1. The small shank Remington was made for tenors. I have one that bears the label "Connstellation" and came with a small bore tenor. Before that I had one that looked like the large shank ones.

2. The Remington has a smaller aperture than a Bach 5G. An Elliott 101/F setup may need a smaller shank than the standard 8 (maybe he can make you a 7 even though it's not standard).

If you really like to play the Remington with the B&S taper, what's wrong with using it in the slide for which it was intended? If you really want to play a medium bore upper, use a mouthpiece designed for it.

[dmatlock421]

For what it's worth:

1. The small shank Remington was made for tenors. I have one that bears the label "Connstellation" and came with a small bore tenor. Before that I had one that looked like the large shank ones.

2. The Remington has a smaller aperture than a Bach 5G. An Elliott 101/F setup may need a smaller shank than the standard 8 (maybe he can make you a 7 even though it's not standard).

If you really like to play the Remington with the B&S taper, what's wrong with using it in the slide for which it was intended? If you really want to play a medium bore upper, use a mouthpiece designed for it.

"If you really want to play a medium bore upper, use a mouthpiece designed for it."

It's a fair statement.

I went to school at the Conservatory in Cincinnati (actually, the College-Conservatory of Music of the University of Cincinnati) where I studied with Betty Glover. When I arrived there, I was playing a small-bore Conn tenor, and Mrs. Glover, unhappy with the fullness of my sound, recommended that I switch to a small-shank Remington mouthpiece. I did. It helped.

The horn of choice at the Conservatory at that time was the Conn 88H, and at the beginning of my second year, 1965, I bought one and switched to the large-shank Remington mouthpiece. The 88H was a spectacular horn, particularly given the orchestral music that we played there. I am still playing that horn today. The small-shank Remington mouthpiece I have today is the same one that I moved away from when I bought the 88H.

In 1966, I transferred to Berklee School of Music where I played the occasional orchestral gig, but it was mostly jazz, jazz, and more jazz. Mostly big band jazz. I became a big band trombonist, mostly lead, and, using the same 88H, I developed into a quite credible lead player at the school, in and around the city of Boston, and on the road. I'm playing the same horn today. With the same mouthpiece. My slide is old, dinged a little, and just wearing out. It's been repaired a number of times in the last few years, but it continues to get worse. I considered getting a new slide. An experienced friend of mine suggested, since I'm still playing big band lead and I'm a lot older and no longer playing 10 to 12 hours a day, that I might consider moving to a dual bore slide, specifically a .525/.547. He thought it might add a bit more clarity to my middle and upper register playing without me working quite so hard (his exact phrase is that I was bringing a howitzer to a pistol fight...!). I don't really agree with that, but what do I know??? It seemed reasonable to me, but I did not expect to have to move to the small-bore Remington mouthpiece in the process. Using that mouthpiece, I lose about a fourth or fifth off the top of my range and I lose an enormous amount of flexibility. Maybe both will return with practice, time and diligence, but after almost two weeks, that does not seem to be the case.

As for the small-bore upper, the SL2547 comes with a large-shank leadpipe, it just has the wrong taper for my large-shank Remington. If I could buy a large-shank Remington mouthpiece with Morse taper, I probably would. The next easiest thing (since I already own the slide...) is to find a suitable mouthpiece that does not feel like I'm blowing through a constricted peashooter. Several people have recommended the 5G as being a reasonable match for the Remington. Seems worth a shot, and probably much easier to find than a Remington with a Morse taper or some other custom mouthpiece.

THAT, in a nutshell, is the story! Sorry for the long-windedness, but since you asked, I thought I give you the full story. Thanks for taking the time to respond and suggest solutions to my dilemma. I really do appreciate it!

[Matt K]

That extra context actually clarifies quite a bit. Given your use of it in a commercial setting, that personally makes me lean towards small shank, and particularly double down on the recommendation I made previously for something like an LT "Remington", LT E, E 5 or perhaps even smaller... like a C+ or D underpart and a D4 or D5. Rim will be the same but will be a lot more "open" than most other small shank pieces which are usually geared towards smaller horns. I don't know off the top of my head which Conn pipe is which, but I'd use whichever is the most "open" of the small shank leadpipes on that horn, given what sounds like pretty engrained preferences. That way you get something that matches your horn, playing, and to a large degree your preferences although with maybe a touch more efficiency than you're used to. And it's all refundable. so if it doesn't work you can try something more exotic.

[30hzbone]

I play on a Getzen 1047R that has a mouthpiece receiver with morse taper but now I test an old Conn88H (made 1988) which has a mouthpiece receiver with remington taper. I have many mouthpieces with morse taper so what I am looking for is a sleeve or tips on how to solve the problem so that I can use my muthpieces without these wobbling in the receiver. I do not want to buy new mouthpieces with remington taper if it can be avoided.

[harrisonreed]

Just play a large bore normal 88H. Or, put the normal taper small bore pipe in a buy a normal mp.

Or, send your mp in to Bob reeves and have it threaded for DE shanks