TromboneChat

I play in a local amateur big band. We rehearse twice a month and have a paid gig maybe 3 times a year.  It was started about 15 years ago by two retired widowers.  One dropped out about five years ago.  The other, John, a WWII vet and the second trombone player, is giving it up.  He has trouble getting around and is moving to a retirement home, and wants to sell me the band. 

John owns the stands, the music, and books the gigs.  When we needed a PA, I ended up putting one together out of my own pocket and easily have over a grand in it.  He decides what charts we play for rehearsals and gigs.  I have been playing lead, sitting next to John and due to his hearing problems I have been the liaison between the band and him. I have helped with tempos, counted off when needed, pack up his horn and make sure the music gets back into his car after rehearsals.  I took over announcements last gig.  The band members come to me with their questions and concerns, I bring them up to John.  We have a strong trumpet section, decent trombone section, and our sax section is rebuilding after some people retired. 

My experience?  I have two quarters as a conservatory performance major back in the 70s.  Switched majors when I realized being a full time musician wasn't in the cards.  When I graduated with a liberal arts degree in the middle of a recession I couldn't find a "real" job so I toured with a third rate big band for almost two years.  That gave me some knowledge of how to do a gig right.  Strictly amateur since 1981.   All that said, I have never run a band, never rehearsed a band.  I can look at a score and get the gist of what should be going on, I guess.

We have a good book of music, a lot of Wolpe arrangements to Miller and Basie transcriptions, 300 charts total.  On the bad side, John donated the originals to local high schools for the tax break and all he is selling are the copies.  That bothers me - he didn't give the band a chance to buy the originals.

I have a full time job and don't have the time to do it all like he did.

My options:

1) Turn down the offer to buy the band and either watch the band fold (I can't do that) or let somebody else step up. 

2) Pay the $2k to John, run it like he did.  Not possible.  Partly because I don't have the time, and partly because as much as I love the band and want to see it thrive I am not willing or able to invest $2k I would probably never see again.

3) Find maybe three others, kick in $500 each, and split the duties.  Agree that if one of the four leaves, the others have to buy him or her out. My top choice right now.  I have one volunteer already who is willing to contact everybody for rehearsals and call subs when needed, something I didn't relish having to do.

4) Ask for all 18 members to kick in $100 each, nonrefundable, and take on what I can and delegate what I can't. 

My wife thinks I am nuts, I should let somebody else take it over and if nobody does find another band to play in.   There are no bands nearby, unfortunately.  I see logistical and legal problems getting everybody to pitch in. 

Anybody have any advice, sage or otherwise? 

I would try to establish an accurate value for the band first:

1) If the charts are all copies, they aren't worth anything as they are now copyright infringing/pirated charts.  John no longer owns them to sell them to you.

2) Don't know what kind of stands you have, but find something similar online and value them at 50% or less of new (depending on condition, probably not great if they are old).

3) Is there any value to the band's name and contacts?  Do you get a bunch of good paying gigs off the name and contacts?  If not, they're not worth much.

Your best bet under these circumstance might be to let the band fold while letting all the members know you're starting a new one.  Only the name need change, and then you don't have to pay John anything.

A band's book is its greatest asset; he killed the band when he dumped the book. The copies aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

What John said.
$2K is a pretty outrageous asking price just for copies.
It would be high even for the originals, for a non-working band.

Like Doug says

Quote$2K is a pretty outrageous asking price just for copies.
It would be high even for the originals, for a non-working band.
Sounds like you would lose $2K and gain a lot of problems (maybe including legal liabilty for the copying).
I think your wife is correct.

Let it go, he already gave away the most valuable part if there was actually any value to it.  He will eventually give away the copies for free, because NOBODY would pay anything.

We had a similar situation with one of the big bands I play with.  The founder of the band retired, and donated the music and PA which he owned (probably paid for with gig money over the years) so we could keep the band going.  We found a new music director and went on business as usual, and we are actually doing better and getting more gigs.  I definately would not pay $2,000 for illegal copies of the music, and some old bandstands.  If you are going to invest $2000 get on-line and start buying legitimate legal copies of the charts (and explain to the retiring director that without the originals his charts aren't worth the paper they are printed on (he lost their value when he donated them and took a tax write off for the donation).  You can do gigs without stage band stands, and they have some now that you can buy relatively cheap.  With the number of gigs you do per year (unless they are really high paying jobs) the name of the band and the gigs aren't worth much. 

My advice tell the former director that you just don't have $2000.00 to invest in an endeavor that has such a low rate of return and little actual value and decline his offer to buy the band.  He may get generous and decide to donate what he has to see the band stay together.  Have a band meeting and see what the interest level is in keeping the band going under another name, if there is interest look to divide up band responsibilities among interested band members and ask for donations to rebuild a library.  It is going to take a while to get things going again, but if the original band folds contact the places where you originally played tell them that band is folding but you are forming a new one and would be interested in being considered to play their jobs. 

$2000 will get you a lot of good, reliable and accurate transcriptions at ejazzlines.com. 20-40 charts at least. Probably more...

Sierra music has good stuff as well.

You live in OH? Lot of cities where big bands used to tour back in the regional big band days... I'd bet there's a dead library of stock charts somewhere.

Dude donates originals to HS for the tax break, tries to sell you copies... this guy sounds like a real piece of work.

See who wants to stay involved, see if they're willing to help build up the book out of their pocket over time. Maybe take up a collection at each rehearsal and buy music and equipment with it.

Yeah, I'd just buy new charts.  Maybe ask everyone who is in the band if they could find one chart they want to play to get re-started.  Some of them may even have stuff sitting around they aren't using!  Then dedicate the first $x of receipts from gigs to go to new music.

I'd also start an LLC.  You have to be careful about how much you pay other members, I believe if its $600 in a year you have to give all 18 of them an IRS form. However, you would then 'own' the band and any expense that you made would be deductible from your personal income. So, for example, if you purchase music and keep the receipts you can claim it and potentially reduce the amount you owe the IRS from your primary source of income.  That may offset the time and money you are sinking into the band.  I'd talk to your accountant about it first but you might end up making a decent amount from the band even if you don't make much money from it.

Our local big band is setup as a 501C as part of the local community band. We mostly play free concerts, but maybe once a year we do a gig where the members make a little bit of money. Most of the money we take in goes towards buying music and paying the director. We have  a pretty good band - really good saxes, pretty good bones, and a great lead trumpet player.

Quote from: SilverBone on Yesterday at 08:56 PMI would try to establish an accurate value for the band first:

1) If the charts are all copies, they aren't worth anything as they are now copyright infringing/pirated charts.  John no longer owns them to sell them to you.

That worried me all along.

2) Don't know what kind of stands you have, but find something similar online and value them at 50% or less of new (depending on condition, probably not great if they are old).

Stands are fairly new, with heavy duty cases. 

3) Is there any value to the band's name and contacts?  Do you get a bunch of good paying gigs off the name and contacts?  If not, they're not worth much.

Band has been around 12 years, had some pretty good gigs.  We have a Facebook page, thanks to me.

Your best bet under these circumstance might be to let the band fold while letting all the members know you're starting a new one.  Only the name need change, and then you don't have to pay John anything.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Today at 01:12 AMWhat John said.
$2K is a pretty outrageous asking price just for copies.
It would be high even for the originals, for a non-working band.

Yes, I agree.  300 originals, averaging $20 a piece, comes up to $6k.  If the originals were included, I would have no problem paying $2k including the stands.

Thanks to everybody who responded so far.  Great input.  Right now I'm thinking of buying the stands and asking if I can keep the name, buy only music that he has the originals for.  I know a lot of bands swap copies of charts between them selves and bypass copyrights, but I have enough respect for the composers and publishers to pass on ripping them off.  Also, fear of lawyers!   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az2IHlFMUIY is what we look and sound like.

The value of the book is the cost of the printing paper and ink, but since it is used, it is worth maybe half of that original raw material value.

I have Humes & Berg Big Band stand fronts that I offered to sell someone recently for $25 per stand.  Some are new still, with the craft paper still on them.  I am located close to Columbus, so if you wanted to buy them, we could fix you up.

I led a big band from 1983 to 2011.  I gave it up because of the competition would bring in a full big band for $500.  They were not very good, but the employer did not care - they had a big band.

I am sorry for your friend, but he really doesn't not have anything to sell you except some used stand fronts.  Good luck!

Doug

Fair market value is what a willing purchaser would pay a willing vendor.

The charts, stands, etc. likely have some value, but, IMO, not much. The band doesn't generate much of a return on investment. How much are you willing to pay for your own amusement?

$2000 seems like a significant investment (more than I'd pay!) although it's basically $125 per band member. At one point, I assembled a book of about 100 arrangements, mainly through trading with other band leaders. Yes, I know, totally in breach of copyright. I eventually sold all the charts for the cost of copying.

So... He gave away the value of the charts when he donated them to the local school. Trying to get you to then buy them from him after, is a bit skeevy on the double dipping side. And that sounds like where any real value would have been.

As the odd question, rehearsing and working a group that really brings in little to no money... that's a labor of love or some little personal project to have something to do.

So forgive me for not automatically approaching this as a business transaction, but what's the deal on his side? Does he need the money? Why is he hitting you up for money to buy something he already gave away?



Either way, I would honestly focus on the question of whether or not to run the band on it's own. Do you have the time? Do you have the desire? Or would you just do it because the guy who did do it asked you too? Anyone else want to? Might be good to have the band get together, discuss a new leader(s), and figure out where to go from here.

My opinion:

• [li]I agree with SilverBone et al.[/li][li]Bands need one dictator. Art by committee don't work.[/li][li]I have played in three bands that went through re-organization / name change. All three were very successful with a new leader to give direction. [/li][li]Leading the band is very time and energy consuming. WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is important. Is it in your heart to be a band director? Is this going to be your only hobby?[/li][li]$2000 is a highball "Art of the Deal" opener. I think $200 is more like it, should be free to just take-over.[/li][li]IMHO you will loose a couple members if a new leader takes over, and up to half the band with a "new" band/name change. Do not get discouraged, there are lots of players, like you, that want to play in a good, well organized band. [/li]

You could also form a 10 piece (or smaller) ensemble if there are some who aren't totally committed.  Get more money per person and you wouldn't use those charts anyway.  Something to consider at least.

Quote from: Matt K on Today at 10:19 AMYou could also form a 10 piece (or smaller) ensemble if there are some who aren't totally committed.  Get more money per person and you wouldn't use those charts anyway.  Something to consider at least.
That's a great idea!  Keep it simple for now, maybe expand later.  Don't be rushed!  But, by all means possible, find a way to play...that works.   Good luck. 

I agree; you could do a gig with 30-40 charts. Do you do dances? If so, start with old arrangements of "In The Mood", "Moon River", your Basie charts, some Latins.
If you have vocalists let them pick five tunes female and five male.
Consider buying some "Easy Jazz Paks" $60 gets you 6 tunes, 3 are use-able.

Quote from: RMTrombone on Jun 29, 2017, 10:14AMMy opinion:

• [li]I agree with SilverBone et al.[/li][li]Bands need one dictator. Art by committee don't work.[/li][li]I have played in three bands that went through re-organization / name change. All three were very successful with a new leader to give direction. [/li][li]Leading the band is very time and energy consuming. WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is important. Is it in your heart to be a band director? Is this going to be your only hobby?[/li][li]$2000 is a highball "Art of the Deal" opener. I think $200 is more like it, should be free to just take-over.[/li][li]IMHO you will loose a couple members if a new leader takes over, and up to half the band with a "new" band/name change. Do not get discouraged, there are lots of players, like you, that want to play in a good, well organized band. [/li]

A local big band I have sat in with is a democracy.  The band votes on the charts to play.  They play six times a year at a local restaurant/lounge and pack the house, plus to other gigs.    It works very well for them, and something similar could work for us.  I know most of the members in our band well enough to know they are looking forward to the old leader's retirement and me taking over, because they have said so.  I'm thinking paying a reasonable amount for the stands and folders, maybe some extra for the band's name and logo.  I want to hold a band meeting to discuss how to proceed first. 

Still thinking.  It is always good insurance for a band to keep the originals in file and put copies in the folders.  Been in too many bands where a folder disappeared and it was hell trying to find replacement 2nd trumpet or bass trombone parts for all the charts.  I figure paying him 5 cents a page for copies of charts I would make copies of anyway once I got the originals would be fair to both of us.  Paying for charts I don't want - forget it.

Quote from: RMTrombone on Jun 29, 2017, 10:14AMMy opinion:

• [li]I agree with SilverBone et al.[/li][li]Bands need one dictator. Art by committee don't work.[/li][li]I have played in three bands that went through re-organization / name change. All three were very successful with a new leader to give direction. [/li][li]Leading the band is very time and energy consuming. WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is important. Is it in your heart to be a band director? Is this going to be your only hobby?[/li][li]$2000 is a highball "Art of the Deal" opener. I think $200 is more like it, should be free to just take-over.[/li][li]IMHO you will loose a couple members if a new leader takes over, and up to half the band with a "new" band/name change. Do not get discouraged, there are lots of players, like you, that want to play in a good, well organized band. [/li]

I'm in a band where a committee works fairly well, we each have our own areas of responsibility:  A librarian who takes care of the Music, equipment person who takes care of the sound system etc., a business manager who does the scheduling and books the jobs, and a Music director who makes all the music decisions and rehearses the group.  If there is any big decisions that cross over these boundaries we have a committee meeting and make the decision together.


<Edit: Fixed Quote>

Our band gets a lot of charts from these guys and they are pretty cheap:

https://www.bigbandcharts.net/catalog.html

Greg email me when you can. jenoxon at iCloud dot com

Quote from: Radar on Jun 30, 2017, 07:58PM a Music director who makes all the music decisions and rehearses the group.
<Edit: Fixed Quote>

This is what I meant by dictator. Open to suggestions, but has the final say.

Quote from: MikeBMiller on Jul 10, 2017, 11:14AMOur band gets a lot of charts from these guys and they are pretty cheap:

https://www.bigbandcharts.net/catalog.html
Hmmm, I had my wrist slapped for mentioning these folks before.  I sent them an email to ask if their charts were legit - they refused to answer.  The price is appealing, but now I believe if you use this service, folks are getting ripped off.

Would be nice if someone could clarify this - I was tempted to order some charts from BigBandCharts, but have no desire to violate copyrights or rip anyone off.   

Quote from: MikeBMiller on Jul 10, 2017, 11:14AMOur band gets a lot of charts from these guys and they are pretty cheap:

https://www.bigbandcharts.net/catalog.html

We had a discussion about this website before.  The charts they sell are illegal copies.  This has been verified by the (living and still in business) composers and arrangers whose charts they are selling.

There are plenty of sources of legal charts. 

Could someone provide a link to the previous discussion about that site?

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,92705.0.html

Here is a site that offers legal free charts: http://www.mindformusic.com/big-band

Quote from: jnoxon on Jul 10, 2017, 12:58PMGreg email me when you can. jenoxon at iCloud dot com

email sent

Having a band meeting tomorrow before rehearsal to work things out among us.  Tremendous support from everybody I contacted.  One member lead high school and college jazz bands and would step up as director.  Another said he would handle internal communications.  I'll do bookings.  Right now my plan is to let John sell the copies and stands to the outsider and we start from scratch.  I own 17 charts myself, others have charts they can kick in, there are plenty of legal downloads, and we buy on our own only the charts from the old book that we like and are not saddled with the music we don't want.  I already came up with a new name and my wife designed a logo and business card.  I'm excited!  Yeah, it will be hard work, but I am betting it will be worth it.

Glad to hear you're up and running, Greg.  I have a substantial library, so if there are charts you're looking for, I may have them--including many that are out of print and unpublished.  And if I don't have them, if anybody can locate them, I can!

Cool

Sounds like you have a good plan and things will come together for you!!  Good choice not to buy the band as it was, illegal copies and all!!

Quote from: gregs70 on Jun 28, 2017, 08:10PMI play in a local amateur big band. We rehearse twice a month and have a paid gig maybe 3 times a year.  It was started about 15 years ago by two retired widowers.  One dropped out about five years ago.  The other, John, a WWII vet and the second trombone player, is giving it up.  He has trouble getting around and is moving to a retirement home, and wants to sell me the band. 

John owns the stands, the music, and books the gigs.  When we needed a PA, I ended up putting one together out of my own pocket and easily have over a grand in it.  He decides what charts we play for rehearsals and gigs.  I have been playing lead, sitting next to John and due to his hearing problems I have been the liaison between the band and him. I have helped with tempos, counted off when needed, pack up his horn and make sure the music gets back into his car after rehearsals.  I took over announcements last gig.  The band members come to me with their questions and concerns, I bring them up to John.  We have a strong trumpet section, decent trombone section, and our sax section is rebuilding after some people retired. 

My experience?  I have two quarters as a conservatory performance major back in the 70s.  Switched majors when I realized being a full time musician wasn't in the cards.  When I graduated with a liberal arts degree in the middle of a recession I couldn't find a "real" job so I toured with a third rate big band for almost two years.  That gave me some knowledge of how to do a gig right.  Strictly amateur since 1981.   All that said, I have never run a band, never rehearsed a band.  I can look at a score and get the gist of what should be going on, I guess.

We have a good book of music, a lot of Wolpe arrangements to Miller and Basie transcriptions, 300 charts total.  On the bad side, John donated the originals to local high schools for the tax break and all he is selling are the copies.  That bothers me - he didn't give the band a chance to buy the originals.

I have a full time job and don't have the time to do it all like he did.

My options:

1) Turn down the offer to buy the band and either watch the band fold (I can't do that) or let somebody else step up. 

2) Pay the $2k to John, run it like he did.  Not possible.  Partly because I don't have the time, and partly because as much as I love the band and want to see it thrive I am not willing or able to invest $2k I would probably never see again.

3) Find maybe three others, kick in $500 each, and split the duties.  Agree that if one of the four leaves, the others have to buy him or her out. My top choice right now.  I have one volunteer already who is willing to contact everybody for rehearsals and call subs when needed, something I didn't relish having to do.

4) Ask for all 18 members to kick in $100 each, nonrefundable, and take on what I can and delegate what I can't. 

My wife thinks I am nuts, I should let somebody else take it over and if nobody does find another band to play in.   There are no bands nearby, unfortunately.  I see logistical and legal problems getting everybody to pitch in. 

Anybody have any advice, sage or otherwise? 






Yes, you are insane.

I'd be happy to donate a chart. It would be a copy of an arrangement a well-known composer-arranger did of a well-known pop tune. For copyright reasons he couldn't SELL me a copy but he could GIVE me a copy.

Let me know.

Quote from: gregs70 on Aug 06, 2017, 06:52PMHaving a band meeting tomorrow before rehearsal to work things out among us.  Tremendous support from everybody I contacted.  One member lead high school and college jazz bands and would step up as director.  Another said he would handle internal communications.  I'll do bookings.  Right now my plan is to let John sell the copies and stands to the outsider and we start from scratch.  I own 17 charts myself, others have charts they can kick in, there are plenty of legal downloads, and we buy on our own only the charts from the old book that we like and are not saddled with the music we don't want.  I already came up with a new name and my wife designed a logo and business card.  I'm excited!  Yeah, it will be hard work, but I am betting it will be worth it.

This sounds like a better plan 

A band with three gigs a year and copies in the band book is not worth $2k. The thing of value seems to be the stands. Are they old? If they are 15 years old or more and in working order they could be worth about $4-$5 each (my guess) but just google ebay and you find what they are worth. A big band has 13-16 stands.

Since you are starting fresh you'll need stands. I guess $100 is a fair price for all the old stands. To be sure you just google any equipment to find out the ebay value.

/Tom

Quote from: watermailonman on Aug 08, 2017, 12:14PMThis sounds like a better plan 

A band with three gigs a year and copies in the band book is not worth $2k. The thing of value seems to be the stands. Are they old? If they are 15 years old or more and in working order they could be worth about $4-$5 each (my guess) but just google ebay and you find what they are worth. A big band has 13-16 stands.

Since you are starting fresh you'll need stands. I guess $100 is a fair price for all the old stands. To be sure you just google any equipment to find out the ebay value.

/Tom

The stands are a few years old, barely used, red and white plastic corrugated folding stands with storage bags.  https://www.musicity.com/Music-stand-Swing-It-Jazz-Ensemble-Band-Music-Stands-5-pack-with-carrying-case.html He said he has $800 in them including deluxe bags.  However, the band doesn't like them except for the saxes.   If we get stands like this, we'll stick with five.

Quote from: gregs70 on Aug 09, 2017, 08:56PMThe stands are a few years old, barely used, red and white plastic corrugated folding stands with storage bags.  https://www.musicity.com/Music-stand-Swing-It-Jazz-Ensemble-Band-Music-Stands-5-pack-with-carrying-case.html He said he has $800 in them including deluxe bags.  However, the band doesn't like them except for the saxes.   If we get stands like this, we'll stick with five.
We just use 5 too.

Quote from: BillO on Aug 10, 2017, 08:13AMWe just use 5 too.
As a trombonists with a slide to deal with and bifocals as well, I find stage band stands to be a pain in the neck!!  I've finally convinced our band leader (a pianist) to use these just for the first row of saxes. 

Quote from: Radar on Aug 10, 2017, 03:37PM... I find stage band stands to be a pain in the neck!!  I've finally convinced our band leader to use these just for the first row of saxes. 

 

Quote from: Radar on Aug 10, 2017, 03:37PMAs a trombonists with a slide to deal with and bifocals as well, I find stage band stands to be a pain in the neck!!  I've finally convinced our band leader (a pianist) to use these just for the first row of saxes. 

I fought with bifocals for years.  No matter what stands I had to play from, I was constantly struggling to see the music.  I finally got a special pair of glasses specifically for reading music at a 2-3 foot range, and life is easy again.

That being said, in a big band setting, I prefer fronts to regular music stands for a variety of reasons.

Quote from: Posaunus on Aug 10, 2017, 04:45PM
I sooooooo agree! 

Quote from: Radar on Aug 10, 2017, 03:37PMAs a trombonists with a slide to deal with and bifocals as well, I find stage band stands to be a pain in the neck!!  I've finally convinced our band leader (a pianist) to use these just for the first row of saxes. 

In the band I'm playing the trombones are the first row

/Tom

Quote from: watermailonman on Aug 12, 2017, 07:37AMIn the band I'm playing the trombones are the first row

/Tom
Now, there's a concept!

He only THINKS he's in the front row because the wagon is moving backwards.

My Shriner big band played on a very wide but shallow stage.  We wound up putting the rhythm in the center, saxes stage right with the trumpets behind them, and trombones stage left with the piano behind us.  My ears never had it so good