Sibelius which version to buy/subscribe?

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:39 am

Hi guys!

Well it's that time of year and I guess I should get my composition and orchestration chops back in shape...

How exactly does Sibelius work now? I went to the website to purchase/subscribe and the options are intimidating to say the least.

What version is the consumer version? I don't need any of the bells and whistles just something to notate with.

Should I just give up and go for Finale? Sibelius is what I used during my undergrad.

Thanks!

SwissTbone · Post by **SwissTbone** » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:07 pm

I have the cheapest version. Is it called "first"? And never missed a feature.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:43 pm

I have used Sibelius since it was on floppy disc. I love it. But . .
Since it sold to Avid, I have had a lot of grief from its subscription method and other policies. It's been very frustrating to me and not worth the grief, so I switched to Finale. Finale used to have a steep learning curve but not any more. And it's an industry standard so nothing's lost by using it. If I were you, I'd think twice before signing up for Sibelius.

AndrewMeronek · Post by **AndrewMeronek** » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:03 pm

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:43 pm Since it sold to Steinburg

AVID, not Steinberg. Steinberg has Dorico.

All 3 of Finale, Sibelius, and Dorico easily produce professional-looking engraving. Lilypond (which is free) looks great too, but doesn't have many of the other tools the other softwares have which can be pretty handy.

Just to get something simple onto paper, Musescore (also free) is fine but generally is harder to get to look professional. The biggest drawback: IMHO Musescore is too inefficient in terms of clicks per idea for large projects.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:08 pm

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:43 pm I have used Sibelius since it was on floppy disc. I love it. But . .
Since it sold to Steinburg, I have had a lot of grief from its subscription method and other policies. It's been very frustrating to me and not worth the grief, so I switched. Finale used to have a steep learning curve but not any more. And it's an industry standard so nothing's lost by using it. If I were you, I'd think twice before signing up for it.

I was thinking the same thing... Problem is... I'm not a student anymore and Finale costs like $600! Ahhhh can't afford that anytime soon.

I do have an ancient bootleg version of Sibelius 7 on my Macbook from undergrad so I'm not completely out to lunch when it comes to notation software but I'd still like to have something on my PC.

Post by **Matt K** » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:26 pm

I don't know if the licenses are transferrable but it might be worth getting 7.5 on eBay or something. I have 7.5, before they went subscription and its great for the 30-60 minutes a month I use it. Couldn't justify a monthly sub personally and would probably switch to MuseScore if I ever needed to switch to monthly sub for some reason.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:08 pm

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:03 pm
Gary wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:43 pm Since it sold to Steinburg
AVID, not Steinberg.

Thanks. Original changed.

BTW, I also had a problem signing with Dorico and, finally, a Dorico Customer Service rep suggested I go to a third party for more efficiency. Not very heart warming to me.

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:25 pm

I Just switched from Sibelius (used it for 9 years) to Dorico. They had a cross grade discount and along with my education discount I was able to score it for ~$150. I couldn't be happier with the change. I was incredibly frustrated and annoyed that Sibelius rarely updated their product, and they moved to the subscription service.

Once I found out that Dorico is the old Sibelius developers, I waited for Dorico 3 to come out and I jumped at the opportunity to switch. There are some limitations I have found with Dorico, but the forums are great long with the Facebook page. Dorico is going to keep getting better, and Sibelius I found was at a stand still.

JebBishop · Post by **JebBishop** » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:53 am

I don't need any of the bells and whistles just something to notate with.

I'm not completely out to lunch when it comes to notation software but I'd still like to have something on my PC

Given these comments, MuseScore should handle all your needs, and it's free. I've been using it for years and haven't run into any limitations for my purposes. It's easy to learn and the online support via forum has been very good when I've used it. You might as well try it out and see if you like it before spending money and dealing with subscription hassles.

cmcslide · Post by **cmcslide** » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:35 am

I’m a Finale user myself, have been since the mid 90’s. I’m not going to get into the which is better argument, but I know that most music software packages are currently offering extended free trials. I think Finale is free for 60 days right now because of the coronavirus situation, so students can do class work. So, this would be a great time to try different packages and see what works best for you!

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:05 pm

Sibelius 6 is the king. Probably not possible to get any more. The versions that came out after don't really do anything new, and are attempts from Avid or whatever company owns it to continue making money off a product that was perfected over a decade ago.

Paying for a subscription service shows how saturated the market is with software trying to be better than v6. Not worth it in my opinion.

AndrewMeronek · Post by **AndrewMeronek** » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:28 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:05 pm Sibelius 6 is the king.

Yeah, that was great software. I do happen to have it on my computer.

Version 7 and on is OK, and it did add some very good features, but most of the weird interface issues that Sibelius is criticized for started with 7.

Geordie · Post by **Geordie** » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:58 pm

JebBishop wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:53 am

Given these comments, MuseScore should handle all your needs, and it's free. I've been using it for years and haven't run into any limitations for my purposes. It's easy to learn and the online support via forum has been very good when I've used it. You might as well try it out and see if you like it before spending money and dealing with subscription hassles.
I’m a Musescore user. JebBishop’s advice is what I’d suggest too. The handbook and online support are great. Although it’s a free resource they accept donations but don’t push this at all.

LanceHandsome · Post by **LanceHandsome** » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:58 am

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:43 pm Finale used to have a steep learning curve but not any more. And it's an industry standard so nothing's lost by using it.

What version? I well remember the utter tediousness and time-consuming-osity of Finale, and I think I'm at version 2011. From what little I saw of Sibelius long ago,it looked considerably easier, so I'm intrigued by what Finale could possibly be like now.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:32 am

LanceHandsome wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:58 am What version? I well remember the utter tediousness and time-consuming-osity of Finale, and I think I'm at version 2011. From what little I saw of Sibelius long ago,it looked considerably easier, so I'm intrigued by what Finale could possibly be like now.

You can get a free, trial version of the current version. Why not compare and then decide for yourself?
https://www.finalemusic.com/

BTW, love the pseudonym, LOL. Reminds me of the kinds of character names you used to see in movies from the deep, dark, sordid past.

LanceHandsome · Post by **LanceHandsome** » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:47 pm

I got the moniker from a friend whose friend used it. Apparently,though, there was some porn flick from long ago that included a character with that name.

Digidog · Post by **Digidog** » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:20 am

I have used Finale since around -96 or -97, and still do. In my opinion I have yet to find a better combination of features in both editing and layout. For a brief period I tried Sibelius, when it was a serious contender for "useability" (and also in fashion among professional editors), but was never sufficiently impressed to make the switch - and I'm happy I never did.

If anyone asks me for advice on a notation software for serious and professional use, I always answer Finale. If anyone asks for function, without advanced features, for hobby, amateur use - I'd advice MuseScore.

To me, Sibelius has since long lost its relevance for my needs.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:38 am

I'm a long time professional Sibelius user, having used it from Sib 3 up to the current Sib Ultimate, and I still thoroughly recommend it for serious composition, arranging, and engraving. There was a period of software stagnation, yes, along with the controversial sale to Avid and consequential firing of the original team (who, as mentioned above, now work at Steinberg and built Dorico from the ground up) but recently the developments are very welcome. Issues that have always frustrated me, and many others, are being addressed, and there are monthly updates with very worthwhile changes that improve workflow, speed and efficiency to no end.

If you go for Sib, use the comparison page - https://www.avid.com/sibelius/comparison - to check out what features you may or may not need. I recommend buying a perpetual license rather than a subscription, but that might be personal choice. For me, I like to own my software outright, and not have it disappear if I decide to stop subscribing. Perpetual license still comes with a year's worth of updates, and the option to pay for future years as and when you need them.

But in short:
"Sibelius First" is free and gets you familiar with the software, and is fine for very basic needs, of up to 4 parts. However, as free software goes, MuseScore is undoubtedly the best choice on its own. Excellent support network too.

"Sibelius" is now the mid-range option, and is probably the best option for most dabblers, amateurs, or semi-professionals. So long as you're fine with just 16 staves, and don't need any advanced features, it's grand and an excellent middle ground.

"Sibelius Ultimate" is the straight out professional version, for orchestral/world/"advanced" composing and arranging, or for those who need a full suite of professional engraving tools for professional publication quality.

Always happy to answer any specific Sib questions as well, if that's of any use!

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:14 am

MagnumH - do you mean I can get Sibelius with no further subscription irritations and in perpetuity, including updates/upgrades, with a one-time purchase of Perpetual License? Thanks.

jazztonight · Post by **jazztonight** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:46 am

I'm glad you started this thread.

I've been a Sibelius user for decades, and switched to Sibelius from Finale after a friend at music school showed me how much better it was. At the time (2001) I was working on big scores for concert band and mixed ensembles, and Sibelius was less clunkier.

That worked until it didn't--the developers sold to Avid and it was a real pain to work with them. The software, however, continued to be solid, and I never looked back. Until last month when my computer crashed and my MacBook was upgraded to the Catalina OS, 64 bit, and my Sibelius 7 wouldn't work. I have hundreds of lead sheets and compositions in .sib format, and even though I was able to get a 30 day free use of Sibelius Ultimate and a 60 day free Finale trial, the thought of converting all my Sibelius files to xml format so I could then convert them to Finale format would have taken me too many hundreds of hours (they said they'd honor my old ownership and only charge about $149 to convert to the latest version). But I decided it wasn't worth it and stuck with Sibelius.

Another problem is I am no longer a student or educator and didn't want to pay full-price for Sibelius Ultimate, which you need for arranging bigger compositions. Fortunately, I was able to do an end-run around this because I do music work for a religious congregation, which provided me with a letter to that effect; so in the end I was able to get the Academic discount, which saved me $200. Otherwise, I would have switched back to Finale or tried MuseScore.

Now I have Sibelius Ultimate working and I'm happy and comfortable with it--it's a very powerful program. I just hope I don't have to go through this again. I truly dislike Avid. If I couldn't have gotten the discount I would not have stayed with Sibelius. (The guy I spoke to at Finale was personable and helpful. I never was able to speak with a real human at Avid.)

Good luck!

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:35 pm

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:14 am MagnumH - do you mean I can get Sibelius with no further subscription irritations and in perpetuity, including updates/upgrades, with a one-time purchase of Perpetual License? Thanks.

If you buy the Perpetual License for Sibelius (or Sibelius Ultimate) you get customer support and all upgrades for one year, after which you get to keep the latest version you have forever.

As I understand it, you have three options at the end of that year:

i) You can renew your support and updates plan for another year. I can't find how much this costs, but I think it's around $90 per year for Ultimate. This HAS to be done before it expires, it cannot be done later.

ii) You can "crossgrade" to a subscription model for something like $7-12 per month, where you will continue to receive support and updates for as long as you're subscribed. If you stop subscribing, however, your version will bounce back to the last version you had before upgrading - you'll lose the newest updates.

iii) You can do nothing, and simply keep whatever your most recent version is. You'll lose official support and won't get future updates. If you do this, you can NOT just reinstate your support plan (option i) later on - you must crossgrade (hopefully at a discounted price, though that is by no means guaranteed) to either a subscription plan or a new perpetual license if you decide you want to update. But, if you think you'll be grand with no updates for a few years before getting back into it, this is probably a good option.

I haven't run the numbers on when exactly each plan is most cost effective, but I personally favor i) or iii). YMMV, and if you're very happy with a software-as-a-subscription model then perhaps ii) is right for you. Caution on that, though, as the subscription service Avid uses (Avid Link) is notoriously unreliable, and frequently there are complaints that people can't use their Sibelius and have to go through a re-registration rigmarole every single month in order to get any work done.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:40 pm

jazztonight wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:46 am I have hundreds of lead sheets and compositions in .sib format, and even though I was able to get a 30 day free use of Sibelius Ultimate and a 60 day free Finale trial, the thought of converting all my Sibelius files to xml format so I could then convert them to Finale format would have taken me too many hundreds of hours (they said they'd honor my old ownership and only charge about $149 to convert to the latest version). But I decided it wasn't worth it and stuck with Sibelius.

I'm glad you found a solution and where able to get the discounts that work for you! If a similar issue comes up (or if you want to convert all the lead sheets anyway as a future precaution) I believe there is a plug-in under "Batch Processing" that can convert an entire folder in one go, which should dramatically speed up the process. If it isn't already installed, it should be available as an additional plug-in (probably written by Sibelius plug-in guru/legend Bob Zawalich).

I haven't tested it myself, but it should work. For caution, though, I would keep a backup of all the files in .sib format, so that nothing can be lost.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:50 pm

MagnumH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:35 pmCaution on that, though, as the subscription service Avid uses (Avid Link) is notoriously unreliable, and frequently there are complaints that people can't use their Sibelius and have to go through a re-registration rigmarole every single month in order to get any work done.

Thanks. That's what was such a source of constant irritation and why I switched to Finale in the first place.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:55 pm

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:50 pm
Thanks. That's what was such a source of constant irritation and why I switched to Finale in the first place.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I went perpetual in the first place. I've yet to see signs that it's improving at all, and god knows why they can't figure it out, but maybe one day... For me I'd rather the headache of dealing with Avid sometimes than of having to relearn a whole new software. And if I was going to do that, it would be with Dorico.

Cmillar · Post by **Cmillar** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:50 pm

Always interesting to discuss notation software.

I'm back to Sibelius, after a year of trying/knowing Dorico 3. Sure, Dorico is really great in many ways, but there's no great 'speed' increase in work flow compared to Sibelius. Some things better, some things worse.

What I missed in Dorico is the ability to enter notes with 'pitch before duration'. As a composer, I want to work in the software almost as an extension of pencil/paper/scorepaper. I need 'pitch before duration' to conceive the music as I go.

Or, I resort to pen/paper, get the juices really flowing, and then transfer notes to software later to build the score and create parts.

I'm at version Sibelius Ultimate 2019.7, and am thrilled at the improvements even since version 7.5

IF I could make sure that I can get a perpetual license to get the latest, there are some things in there that would be really handy as well, like importing smaller MIDI instrument section/files for things like creating drum track for demo purposes. But, yeah, I sure don't want to get trapped in any 'pay monthly' scheme. I'm glad I purchased 'perpetual' a year or two ago, even it's run out at version 2019.7

Hey, I'm glad I know what Dorico is capable of, and I'm even gladder that I know Sibelius. (...I flirted with Finale off and on over the years as well, but.... Sibelius is more my style)

Note: whichever software you have, please check out getting a 'Stream Deck' controller and check out the software from 'ScoringNotes.com' You can totally configure a StreamDeck for even more efficient work flow and keep the inspirations happening and stay in the zone.

Erickmaf · Post by **Erickmaf** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:48 am

Hi man, congrats on a great job

I did such a map myself some time ago, using the Frank GambaleTechnique books as a base. You should check these books also.

If anyone explains how to post my map right here Word format, Ill do it On one page, youll have all the info needed.

IanDeterlingComposer · Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:27 pm

I used Finale for many years, and then I switched to Sibelius when they came out with 7. I always found Finale to be clunky where Sibelius for me is more intuitive. There are a few issues I had, but they fixed a lot of them when they upgraded to Sibelius Ultimate. I tried Dorico for a week and was under impressed, so I'm back to Sibelius.
If you take a bit of time to memorise many of the key shortcuts, you'd be surprised with how fast your workflow will be. Especially when you use it for sketching! Again, there are a couple of issues I still have with it that I wish they'd fix, but overall it is a HUGE time saver for me in comparison to the competition. For me, the time saved is well worth the price.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:20 pm

I went back to Sibelius just the other day and it was a relief. Did some Dorico and didn't really see any value added. Went to Finale (yes paid full price) and just couldn't get past the learning curve. Avid's subscription etc. drove me crazy but being frustrated with the other systems, I finally just threw my hands up and bought Sibelius Ultimate at the "in perpetuity" category and working with it again is like putting on an old, worn-in pair of shoes.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:25 pm

I'm so lucky that sibelius 6 doesn't force you to update. Honestly the best version they made. Later versions are bogged down and needlessly slow with pointless bloatware. Sheet music hasn't really been innovated since the 1800s, for good reason. I'm sorry that you released too good of a product with Sib6, but that's your problem, Avid.

LeTromboniste · Post by **LeTromboniste** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:36 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:25 pm I'm so lucky that sibelius 6 doesn't force you to update. Honestly the best version they made. Later versions are bogged down and needlessly slow with pointless bloatware. Sheet music hasn't really been innovated since the 1800s, for good reason. I'm sorry that you released too good of a product with Sib6, but that's your problem, Avid.

I agree so much. Sibelius 6 does everything I need perfectly so I don't see the point in changing. I didn't like 7 at all, and 8 was worse. Changing lots of things with essentially no value added (and for my purposes of making scholarly editions of early music, often the newer versions make things actually harder). I might consider switching to Dorico at some point if more early music features are integrated but for now it requires as much faking as in Sibelius so I might as well stay with Sibelius since I have my workflow and I know how to fake what needs faking.

LeTromboniste · Post by **LeTromboniste** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:38 pm

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:36 am
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:25 pm I'm so lucky that sibelius 6 doesn't force you to update. Honestly the best version they made. Later versions are bogged down and needlessly slow with pointless bloatware. Sheet music hasn't really been innovated since the 1800s, for good reason. I'm sorry that you released too good of a product with Sib6, but that's your problem, Avid.
I agree so much. Sibelius 6 does everything I need perfectly so I don't see the point in changing. I didn't like 7 at all, and 8 was worse. Changing lots of things with essentially no value added (and for my purposes of making scholarly editions of early music, often the newer versions make things actually harder). I might consider switching to Dorico at some point if more early music features are integrated but for now it requires as much faking as in Sibelius so I might as well stay with Sibelius since I have my workflow and I know how to fake what needs faking.

Aaaaand it seems like I jinxed it...I was just today setting up my new laptop, and just installed Sib 6 and getting "Unspecified error" every time I try to run it...

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:00 pm

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:38 pm
LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:36 am

I agree so much. Sibelius 6 does everything I need perfectly so I don't see the point in changing. I didn't like 7 at all, and 8 was worse. Changing lots of things with essentially no value added (and for my purposes of making scholarly editions of early music, often the newer versions make things actually harder). I might consider switching to Dorico at some point if more early music features are integrated but for now it requires as much faking as in Sibelius so I might as well stay with Sibelius since I have my workflow and I know how to fake what needs faking.
Aaaaand it seems like I jinxed it...I was just today setting up my new laptop, and just installed Sib 6 and getting "Unspecified error" every time I try to run it...

Try compatibility mode. That's all I needed to get it working on windows 10. If that doesn't work, uninstall it and reinstall without it connected to the internet. Block it with your firewall from communicating and register it manually, without the internet.

I don't think that Avid tried breaking older versions that are still out there, but you never know.

Sibelius which version to buy/subscribe?

Sibelius which version to buy/subscribe?

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