TromboneChat

I would like to get the opinion of anyone who has purchased a vintage tenor trombone w/ F attachment or a bass trombone and modernized it (maybe there is a better term. By modernize I mean changes like converting string linkage to mechanical linkage, changing 2nd valve slide turning to D instead of Eb, converting to interchangeable leadpipes, etc. Did you get the result you wanted? Was it worth it? I like the the sound I have obtained on some vintage horns but could not get over the clunky slides and sounds produced by the valves when engaged. Also if there are changes I have not mentioned please let me know as I would be curious to see what over people are doing to classic horns.

There are a couple of very common mods done to bass trombones:

1. Conversion of 2nd valve from flat E to Eb or D. This requires a new tuning slide or an extension. Rarely if ever affects the sound of the instrument and often improves playability.

2. Conversion of 2nd valve actuation to middle finger as opposed to the over/under or side-by-side on the original horn. Not as reversible as item 1 above, but greatly enhances ergonomics for most people.

3. Replacing valves. This is most commonly needed on Bach rotor instruments. Other brands have much more open rotary valves. The replacements can vary from more open rotors (Meinschmitt, Olsen) to Hagmanns to full Axial (Thayer) valves. These are expensive conversions. Sometimes the result is not as good as what you had before. Reversion is nearly impossible. Full Axials have very low resistance -- too low for some players. The others have less resistance than the Bach rotor but may be enough for most players.

If you want to play a vintage horn every day, this is sometimes the only route.

I have an 88h that I changed to screw in leadpipes, but that was because the cork barrels were extremely pitted and needed replacing.

I have a bass where I changed the E valve to Eb, but the tech made it a little too long. So Eb is unusable in 1st position. The new levers had standoffs so long they rub on my shirt collar. I fixed it myself.

Some work is good and some isn't. Some ideas are better than others. Eb - D is reversible, and a matter of personal taste. String to mechanical is a downgrade not sure why people think the opposite. Some changes are mainly for fashion, avoid that if you can.

Making changes is expensive. You might be better off looking for a horn you like.

I personally don't think there is any such thing as "updating" a vintage horn. If it's a good horn, don't change it. If you prefer a new horn, get one. Don't try to make it into something it isn't.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:12 pm
I personally don't think there is any such thing as "updating" a vintage horn. If it's a good horn, don't change it. If you prefer a new horn, get one. Don't try to make it into something it isn't.

This is what I am afraid of.

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:28 pm By modernize I mean changes like converting string linkage to mechanical linkage, ... etc.
I ... could not get over the ... sounds produced by the valves when engaged.

I have trombones with string linkage valves, and trombones with mechanical linkage valves.
I have no trouble with a properly adjusted string linkage (which typically require no readjustment for a very long time). These are actually my quietest, smoothest valves, and the "throw" is short. I love them and will never change their linkages. (And I save a tint amount of time and money on linkage lubrication!)

Am I missing something?

There are really two sides to this coin. Yes, hack up a horn to your heart's content and no!!! it belongs in a museum! I think there is a solid middle ground between the two stances.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:12 pm I personally don't think there is any such thing as "updating" a vintage horn. If it's a good horn, don't change it. If you prefer a new horn, get one. Don't try to make it into something it isn't.

Please don't go around doing anything silly like putting Thayers on an Elkhart Conn 62h, don't pull the lead pipe on a Mount Vernon, don't mutilate a Conn 88h to have anything but the stock rotor. Not every horn needs to be open wrapped. Like hyperbolic said "Don't try to make it something it isn't."

But I think burgerbob really nails it on the head with his post.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:51 pm If you want to play a vintage horn every day, this is sometimes the only route.

For example you would be crazy to play a Duo Gravis or Holton TR180 daily with the stock triggers. I'm sure there are people who do but I'm sure not one of them. Modifying a vintage horn can turn it into something that can be used as a daily driver.

I own a custom Minick bass trombone. Amazing horn. When I received the slide it wasn't in the best shape and while the valves were smooth the F rotor leaked. I've since heavily modified it with new Olsen rotors and a brand new hand slide made by my tech. Should I have kept the horn stock? Probably. It played great. But between the leaky valves and the 7.5/10 slide it wasn't something I could feasibly use as a daily driver. So I modified it and couldn't be happier with it. It plays like a new horn though still needs a little more work done to it.

The moral of the story is to use your best judgment. Don't hack up something for no reason but if you have a horn that can be brought back to life or modified so as to make daily playing easier... do it! Just make sure you take the horn to a good tech who knows what they're doing.

It really depends. Some parts of a trombone will wear out over time if not properly maintained. Even with proper maintenance, some valves are/were just not as good as others, and when they start to leak, your option is either to get them refit, or replaced outright.

The process of refitting a valve is somewhat labor intensive, and if you're going to put that much $$$ into a horn, it may be better just replace the valve with a more modern design.

Also things like changing the key of valve attachments on bass trombones has been going on pretty much since they started making 2 valve basses. Splitting and reworking the linkage for valves is also something that has been adjusted for quite some time. Unless it's a historic time capsule horn, if it was in use for decades, chances are that it's going to have had a lot changed already.

I have a Mount Vernon 36B and I`m going to have the valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations Valve and have the trigger moved to a "modern" location, so when I use the F trigger I don`t hit my cheek.
I also have a Mount Vernon Straight 36 and I had the leadpipe pulled and an Edwards #2 put in. Plays great now.
Should I mess with a Vintage horn, well, they are mine and the improvements will make my horns play better.
Just my opinion

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:04 pm
...Please don't go around doing anything silly like putting Thayers on an Elkhart Conn 62h, don't pull the lead pipe on a Mount Vernon, don't mutilate a Conn 88h to have anything but the stock rotor. Not every horn needs to be open wrapped. Like hyperbolic said "Don't try to make it something it isn't."

Yeah, I think we pretty much agree. I might not have said just what I meant in that previous post. Anyone who knows my horns and thought I said "don't change classic horns" would call me a hypocrite. My Elkhart 88h has new cork barrels. My 79h has a 78h bell, My 1662i has a replaced bell. My s-20 has a new valve set on it. I put a wide crook on a 10h. I have an 8h frankenbone. I'm contemplating making a 508 Conn of some sort. These are all mods to vintage horns (except the Kanstul). So I've done my share. I'm not a historian purist by any means.

My argument against modifications usually comes from a cost efficiency point of view. There's no better way to totally vaporize several hundred dollars than to get caught up in some sort of transformation of an old horn.

For example, I kind of revere Elkhart 62h, but I'd like bigger valves, and a better 2nd valve lever, and the TIS is heavy, and I don't like the Remington taper business, and this and that. So instead of hacking up a perfectly good vintage 62h, I bought a Kanstul update of the 62, which is the 1662i. It has all those things out of the box. If I had bought the Kanstul used, it would have cost much less than the 62h + mods.

I wanted a small bass, and no one really makes something like I wanted, so I started with something that no one really holds in much regard - an Olds S-20 9" bell single valve dual bore TIS bass. Then I added a discarded set of Duo Gravis valves. So at least I didn't hack up anything valuable (someone else did, but not me). The result is worth about $300 less than I have into it, but that's the kind of risk you take with mods.

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:33 pm I have a Mount Vernon 36B and I`m going to have the valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations Valve and have the trigger moved to a "modern" location, so when I use the F trigger I don`t hit my cheek.
I also have a Mount Vernon Straight 36 and I had the leadpipe pulled and an Edwards #2 put in. Plays great now.
Should I mess with a Vintage horn, well, they are mine and the improvements will make my horns play better.
Just my opinion

I’m thinking about doing the exact same with an old 36B. Horn sounds wonderful, but the rotor is so leaky that I have to use thick rotor oil a couple times a day to seal it.

Im wondering if the entire Bach valve wrap be saved if I opted for a newer valve like the Olsen? Or if you have to replace with an entirely different valve section?

RJMason wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:10 pm

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:33 pm I have a Mount Vernon 36B and I`m going to have the valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations Valve and have the trigger moved to a "modern" location, so when I use the F trigger I don`t hit my cheek.
I also have a Mount Vernon Straight 36 and I had the leadpipe pulled and an Edwards #2 put in. Plays great now.
Should I mess with a Vintage horn, well, they are mine and the improvements will make my horns play better.
Just my opinion

I’m thinking about doing the exact same with an old 36B. Horn sounds wonderful, but the rotor is so leaky that I have to use thick rotor oil a couple times a day to seal it.

Im wondering if the entire Bach valve wrap be saved if I opted for a newer valve like the Olsen? Or if you have to replace with an entirely different valve section?

Instrument Innovations have a drop-in replacement rotor, same size as the original. It's not the ball bearing valve.

An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.
2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.
3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.
4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.
5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.
6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.
7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.

MT that is all reasonable work. That's a proper restoration for a vintage horn!

Just make sure you take the horn to a good tech as pulling the leadpipe can be tricky sometimes and you of course want the new triggers to be comfortable.

I recommend checking out the BrassArk BH62 leadpipe and MK Drawing George Roberts pipe for aftermarket leadpipes! A Shires B2.5 isn't bad either in the old rotor TIS horns...

Personally I wouldn't bother with #4.

Replacing the leadpipe so you can use modern shank bass trombone mouthpieces is a good idea on older Conn large bores.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:20 pmI recommend checking out the BrassArk BH62 leadpipe and MK Drawing George Roberts pipe for aftermarket leadpipes! A Shires B2.5 isn't bad either in the old rotor TIS horns...

My Minick customised 1970 62h came with a Shires B3 pipe, but only really came alive with tighter pipes...the Shires B1 really makes it speak! Waiting on the Brassark BH62 in drawn yellow brass though which will hopefully be even better!

I have a 71H that was pieced together into a dorta 73H. I had Olsen valves setup to be dependent, the leadpipe pulled and now use a Bach 50 pipe, the slide had the crook changed to something other than stock, and the horn is completely modular.

I've pulled pipes on my 6Hs.

I have an 8HLT thats fully modular.

I also have some 50s Conns ill never cut unless absolutely necessary.

Pulling leadpipes is probably the most common and biggest cral shoot of modifying vintage horns since the little bastards don't like coming out.

Why the hate for string linkage?

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:10 pm An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.
2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.
3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.
4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.
5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.
6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.
7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.

All good stuff except possibly #1. If you love the Conn sound changing lead pipes might be a waste of time. However I know several who have pulled the pipe with good results.

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:10 pm An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.
2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.
3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.
4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.
5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.
6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.
7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.

1. No, I would not do that if it is not broken.
2. Yes
3. Yes
4 No. Strings is better.
5. Yes, you do what you have to do to make them work. I would replace with original parts if possible.
6. Yes
7. Yes, but dents does not bother me much. As long as the horn plays good. I'm tempted to make a good vintage horn look shiny but the chance is it plays different after. If it is good I would not take the risk and if it plays bad I would not spend that much money. This means NO new lacquer on my horns. A friend did it with a vintage Conn 4h and I tried before and after. It was different. That horn became a better horn afterwards. It can be either good or bad.

/Tom

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:01 am Why the hate for string linkage?

I just don't want to deal with string linkage failing. I know mechanical linkage can fail too, but I haven't thad that happen yet. Basically personal preference.

I know custom work on bones is very popular. What ever the flavor of the week gets very popular. In the last 10 years of doing repair work before I retired I did a lot of custom work. As a businessman you want to make your customers happy but some requests just seemed unnecessary. So when I started playing bass trombone a couple of years ago I could have gone crazy. I have the tools and the skills. So I bought a 1963 72H and figured I would "work" on it. But as I started playing it I realized the OEM leadpipe was fine and the string linkage was fine. All I did was rebuild the rotor with 5 coats of copper and a finishing coat of nickel (with 3 grits of lapping coumpund and lots of hand lapping). Now it doesn't leak and is quiet. After finding a mouthpiece I like I've got a great horn for the type of playing I do.
So, don't hurry to modify a vintage horn because someone has come up with something new that's trending. That can get as crazy as the mouthpiece merry-go-round. Get to know the horn and repair if need be.

I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.

That said, I like to do mods that are not terribly permanent. That is, I try not to cut too much in the way of tubing unless necessary. I also don’t generally do them without an underlying maintenance reason, or not a one off horn. For example, my Bach NY45 fits modern valves with some minor brace work of Shires valve sections. But the original rotor was toast. Looking back, could I have simply replaced the valve or even just the valve core? Maybe, but I made it fit valves that I had for a modern horn anyway, so I wasn’t out spending money on something that I would hope holds value. It now is my horn of choice and can come out as a single or a double as needed. Unlike its brother the vintage 50 which is stuck as a single until I can figure out a good drop in valve. I would make it interchangeable, but it looks too good and plays too good as is.

As for some other comments on this thread... I made a nice set of dependent Thayers that I put on a 60H that was missing a valve section. Shame I didn’t leave that horn in the trash condition that I found it. The final result wasn’t my cup of tea, but the available valves and horn made a decent fit together and brought a horn that would have been cast aside back into the playing rotation. And I did it without cutting anything so somebody can pop their next favorite valves onto it later.

Now, should I fit these Thayers I don’t play much to the Fuchs? No. Of course not, but deciding the best way to repair the Fuchs is why it is sitting, unplayed in the basement going on a couple of years now. Wouldn’t it be better for us all if it was out being used?

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:04 am I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.

That said, I like to do mods that are not terribly permanent. That is, I try not to cut too much in the way of tubing unless necessary. I also don’t generally do them without an underlying maintenance reason, or not a one off horn. For example, my Bach NY45 fits modern valves with some minor brace work of Shires valve sections. But the original rotor was toast. Looking back, could I have simply replaced the valve or even just the valve core? Maybe, but I made it fit valves that I had for a modern horn anyway, so I wasn’t out spending money on something that I would hope holds value. It now is my horn of choice and can come out as a single or a double as needed. Unlike its brother the vintage 50 which is stuck as a single until I can figure out a good drop in valve. I would make it interchangeable, but it looks too good and plays too good as is.

As for some other comments on this thread... I made a nice set of dependent Thayers that I put on a 60H that was missing a valve section. Shame I didn’t leave that horn in the trash condition that I found it. The final result wasn’t my cup of tea, but the available valves and horn made a decent fit together and brought a horn that would have been cast aside back into the playing rotation. And I did it without cutting anything so somebody can pop their next favorite valves onto it later.

Now, should I fit these Thayers I don’t play much to the Fuchs? No. Of course not, but deciding the best way to repair the Fuchs is why it is sitting, unplayed in the basement going on a couple of years now. Wouldn’t it be better for us all if it was out being used?

Cheers,
Andy

If you'd kindly send me the Fuchs I'll figure the whole thing out. Thank you.

I'm ready to get beat up for this:

Horns are tools; we should treat them as such. We admire 'classic' horns because of our intense interest in our own little corner of the universe, but no one outside of our world values them in the way all-original collector cars, works of art, or any investment-grade collectibles are valued. No one other than another trombonist will pay top dollar for a cherry NY Bach or a minty Elkhart Conn. Even then, top-dollar value is far less than a well-worn Honda Civic.
These horns aren't investments or museum pieces. With all the improvements in modern horn building, there even seems to be somewhat less interest among professionals in finding and playing old horns. Professionals find the best of current technology and stick with it until it does't work for them anymore, or something better presents itself. Old horns are the hobbyists' passion (and an endlessly entertaining one).
Long story short: If you have the cash: tinker, adapt, overhaul, modify, and most of all- enjoy yourself!
1. Altering horns to make them work/play better is fine (and fun). If it doesn't work out; sell it to someone else - no great tragedy, there's another one out there.
2. Using them is better than hoarding, preserving and coveting them. When you're gone, your kids wont' take that NY 42 out of the closet and say, "Wow, dad had the awesome foresight to preserve this rare, mint trombone! Let's call Sotheby's, we're gonna be set for life!" Rather, it will be more like what I expect my kids to say, "How many of these d**n things did he have ?!?"

Just my two cents, offered in a good-natured attempt at an alternate perspective. Fire away!

If you own a highly desirable, minty, vintage instrument, you probably paid extra for that mintyness. If you start modifying it, that torch isn't just burning lacquer, it's burning money. Sell it on to a collector, then take that money and buy another that's been played but not abused. Use the money you have left over to help fund your tinkering.

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:45 am If you own a highly desirable, minty, vintage instrument, you probably paid extra for that mintyness. If you start modifying it, that torch isn't just burning lacquer, it's burning money. Sell it on to a collector, then take that money and buy another that's been played but not abused. Use the money you have left over to help fund your tinkering.

Agreed.

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:45 am If you own a highly desirable, minty, vintage instrument, you probably paid extra for that mintyness. If you start modifying it, that torch isn't just burning lacquer, it's burning money. Sell it on to a collector, then take that money and buy another that's been played but not abused. Use the money you have left over to help fund your tinkering.

This I also agree with. Collectible horns are a whole different can of worms. There are plenty of well used vintage instruments to experiment on. If you find a minty Elkhart Conn 88H that plays good, don't mess with it.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it on an a vintage horn.

The key of the Second attachment though... that can be fixed without really "modifying" the horn, if you can get a custom bent Valve loop.

I see three scenarios

1) it's not rare: go for it and don't look back, improve at will. My main horn for years was an early 90s 42. Not a vintage that is in any particularly high demand but it was a very prime specimen that impressed everyone who tried it, so instead of upgrading to a different horn I just improved the one I had. It made it even better.

2) it's rare/very desirable vintage but no longer in playing condition: go on and make the changes you want to the parts that aren't good anymore. There's something poetic and nice in bringing a good antique horn back to life in a new form, combining elements of the past with new technology.

3) it's rare/very desirable and in playing condition, then I would say don't do anything that isn't absolutely needed, try repairing or restoring rather than mods/customisations, and if making substantial changes, try to make them reversible as much as possible.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:04 am I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.

Yes, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice if at least one or a few of them had survived in their original set-up so we could know how they actually played and sounded originally?

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:42 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:04 am I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.

Yes, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice if at least one or a few of them had survived in their original set-up so we could know how they actually played and sounded originally?

There are some that are still set up for the gut strings. However, neck resets are also a part of any old stringed instruments life. Even acoustic classical guitars eventually will have the neck joint start to give way under the stress of the strings. The glue they are put together with is hide glue, which can degrade over time.

CheeseTray wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:50 am I'm ready to get beat up for this:

Horns are tools; we should treat them as such. We admire 'classic' horns because of our intense interest in our own little corner of the universe, but no one outside of our world values them in the way all-original collector cars, works of art, or any investment-grade collectibles are valued. No one other than another trombonist will pay top dollar for a cherry NY Bach or a minty Elkhart Conn. Even then, top-dollar value is far less than a well-worn Honda Civic.
These horns aren't investments or museum pieces. With all the improvements in modern horn building, there even seems to be somewhat less interest among professionals in finding and playing old horns. Professionals find the best of current technology and stick with it until it does't work for them anymore, or something better presents itself. Old horns are the hobbyists' passion (and an endlessly entertaining one).
Long story short: If you have the cash: tinker, adapt, overhaul, modify, and most of all- enjoy yourself!
1. Altering horns to make them work/play better is fine (and fun). If it doesn't work out; sell it to someone else - no great tragedy, there's another one out there.
2. Using them is better than hoarding, preserving and coveting them. When you're gone, your kids wont' take that NY 42 out of the closet and say, "Wow, dad had the awesome foresight to preserve this rare, mint trombone! Let's call Sotheby's, we're gonna be set for life!" Rather, it will be more like what I expect my kids to say, "How many of these d**n things did he have ?!?"

Just my two cents, offered in a good-natured attempt at an alternate perspective. Fire away!

You can not set rules for anyone who buy something and modernize it for fun. You do what you have to do.

I'm a collector and I have found my collection so I don't need more rare collectable horns.

Most people do not appreciate a good Vintage Conn 88h or a single valved Conn 70h. First you need to know about trombones and there we just lost 99.9% of the population. Among the rest there are but a few who need more trombones than one, and then even fewer who really need something better than a pBone. Very few can appreciate an old vintage horn in original or make a difference on a horn like that.

I have played a lot of destroyed old horns. The horns I'm thinking of were 20 old vintage single valved Conn basstrombones that had been converted to double thayer triggers, all 20 were completely destroyed in the process. I would not even want them for half the price.

/Tom

Far too many fine old trombones get hacked about to try and make a mediocre players life easier. The results are usually depressing. Sorry, but it's true. If an instrument is fifty or more years old, plays very well in it's own terms and is original DON'T MESS WITH IT. Either learn to play it or sell it on to someone who will. There are lots of good modern instruments out there that play wonderfully.... get one.
If you, on the other hand, you find an old trombone that requires work to be playable and may have already been messed with, then go for it. I have both highly original and highly modified old instruments as a result of the above philosophy. Talking old Conns, the leadpipes were very much part of the horn and best not changed, in my opinion. You learn how to work with them. Don't put freer blowing valves on and expect it to still play like a Conn... been there, done that. It won't.
Often the best thing is a rebuild by a good tech...as standard as possible... it will look the same but work as it should.

Chris

Yeah I am getting the impression this sort of major surgery is not likely something I want to dive into. I have found a few modern instruments that have promise (Yamaha YBL-830 and YBL-620G), but not ready to make any sort of major decisions right now. I am thinking I am better off heading that direction.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:42 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:04 am I do not mind modernizing a vintage horn. Just do it intelligently. EVERY Stradivarius Violin has been taken apart, had its neck chopped up and put back on. Quite frankly, without that mod, they would be all but useless in a modern orchestra.

Yes, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice if at least one or a few of them had survived in their original set-up so we could know how they actually played and sounded originally?

Taking an interesting (to me only, probably) tangent here... I believe there is one Stradivarius violin that is unaltered, the so called “Messiah” that is hanging out at the Ashmolean (sp?) museum. I believe the consensus is that it kinda stinks and needs to be played more and updated to be interesting. Paraphrasing from a book that I cannot find right now and hope that I am not conflating two different violins.

Back on topic, Chris sums it up pretty simply. There are lots of folks that play some of those old horns in very fine ensembles. Failing that, getting the right tech to do the work on an old horn is a good plan. Especially if you are hoping to retain any value. What would be worth more, a mint 62H or a well worn Minick 62H?

In the mean time, I’m still trying to figure out who I need to fix this Fuchs... I had a plan, but the more I looked at it I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to dig in to something beyond my skill.

Cheers,
Andy

They're just trombones.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:17 pm

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:42 pm

Yes, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice if at least one or a few of them had survived in their original set-up so we could know how they actually played and sounded originally?

In the mean time, I’m still trying to figure out who I need to fix this Fuchs... I had a plan, but the more I looked at it I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to dig in to something beyond my skill.

Cheers,
Andy

Benn did an extraordinary job with mine.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:17 pmWhat would be worth more, a mint 62H or a well worn Minick 62H?

That might well be a push. Assuming the Minick is "used but not abused" and doesn't need major work to be playable, and the 62H isn't a lemon, their "rare-o-meter" score is pretty similar. The Minick would be more valued as a player, the stock 62H to a collector.

Me, I'd rather have the Minick. I could PLAY it without worrying too much about decreasing its value. If you drop serious coin on a mint collectible instrument, that mint-ness is diminishes as time passes; faster if you player, slower if you don't, but it's still diminishing in either case.

To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:44 am To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris

Indeed, those old Elkhart Conns have never waned in their popularity. If anything, they become more sought after with each passing year - and for good reason.

The old German Konzertposaune is very much a thing of the past, though. Very few people still play them professionally. The only one I can think of is Prof. Christhard Gössling of the Berlin Phil.

Just to confuse things, my two favourite Conn basses are both built up from bits and have non standard leadpipes . Nothing is simple.
I don't use my fabulous Fuchs which is original apart from the valve linkage, because I can't get on with the very close bell. I will not mess with it. That would be criminal.

Chris

Jay Friedman and Charlie Vernon of the Chicago Symphony both play vintage Bach bells and (I think) tuning slides on completely custom built instruments - non-original slides, modern valves (Thayer, Greenhoe, etc. - they've both experimented quite a bit). They have found those instruments to be the best tools for their jobs. Could they do their jobs on the original instruments? In Jay's case, probably, for the most part. Charlie, on the other hand, couldn't do what he does every day on bass trombone with one valve.

I have a mid-60s Bach 50 that I've had modified by swapping out the valve for a Rotax with Shires open-wrap tubing. It had a special character with the original valve; now it has a different special character - still warm and rich but with more clarity - and plays much better, much easier. I can take it into any orchestra I play with unless I really need two valves. Every once in a while I think about adding a 2nd Rotax valve to it and maybe reversing the tuning slide. But I have a Shires for that - and most of the players I play with also play Shires.

I also have a 1940 Conn 70H that had some small modifications done and then reversed by a previous owner. It's about 98% stock. Even with major modification it wouldn't fit in most of my playing situations; where it fits though, it's perfect. Leaving it alone and playing it for what it is.

Oh, and the string linkage makes it the quietest, quickest, shortest-throw valve I have. There's a reason many horn players prefer strings.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:07 am I also have a 1940 Conn 70H that had some small modifications done and then reversed by a previous owner. It's about 98% stock. Even with major modification it wouldn't fit in most of my playing situations; where it fits though, it's perfect. Leaving it alone and playing it for what it is.

Oh, and the string linkage makes it the quietest, quickest, shortest-throw valve I have. There's a reason many horn players prefer strings.

The great thing about being an amateur is that I can turn up with an obscure horn and not put my livelihood at risk. I once went to a trombone event at the Royal Academy and some kid took a look at my Fuchs, held together with tape, and tried to get me to move to another stand. I didn't give him the "I've been playing longer than you've been alive" pitch.

The Conn triggers would be OK if they came down from the top, but they really do get in the way.

S

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:44 am To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:52 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:44 am To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.

Well, from this side of the pond , some American antics seem a little amusing...

Chris

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:52 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:44 am To a lot of pro players in the UK, the old Elkhart Conns have never been surpassed as tools for the job. Most are unmodified.... that's the way it is here. They get passed on to the next generation for them to learn and love. Good or bad ? Neither...just the way it is. It used to be like that in Germany with the old Kruspes.

Chris

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.

Why?

Tbarh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:13 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:52 pm

We do have to admit that this is a bit of an odd practice, right? It's not a quality judgement... I quite like the British trombone sound and approach. But it's quite strange nonetheless.

Why?

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

All instruments were modern at some point.

I had an Elkhart 88H that I played for years, and loved. It was bone-stock, leadpipe had been mashed up enough to take morse mouthpieces, and had the original valve. It was a GREAT tenor trombone. Super fun to play in an orchestra, on first.

It always bugged me, though, how stuffy the trigger register felt. The C and B in the staff were so noticeably different when played using the valve that I got in the habit of just using 6th and 7th position whenever possible. The horn just wanted a much smaller mouthpiece than was comfortable for me in order to center below the staff.

I thought about having the valve replaced, but I also wasn't TOTALLY in love with the sound. It was a very "light" Elkhart Conn, and I tried several friend's horns that produced more core, more easily. Different characters.

Ultimately I moved elsewhere. I got a Corp 42 that had been hot-rodded with an Olsen valve, M neckpipe, and a 90's 42 slide that was WAY open. Finally wound up with my Schilke/Greenhoe tenor. Do I miss the Conn? Yes. Do I miss not being able to comfortably play a low D? NO.

Maybe there's a way to bend physiology and adapt to an instrument that doesn't quite suit you. Lots of players with thick necks made narrow slides work their entire careers. Players with thick lips can push out ballads on 12Cs. For me, at least, it's been an important consideration that I focus less on the physical act of making a beautiful sound, and more on shaping that sound to be musical. For some people, a 62H and a 2G is the easiest path to the sound they want. For others, they may need to spend an impractical amount of effort just to make that work. Dogmas are really only suitable for dogs.

Horns are meant to be played. Everyone is different. Despite the myriad options for horns we have now, circumstances dictate that some people modify old horns to suit their needs. We would do well to remember that a trombone is just plumbing until someone picks it up and starts making music. Elevating the importance of the horn (vintage or new) is really myopic. If you want to start a brass instrument museum, that's your problem. I want to make beautiful sounds.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:45 pm Well, from this side of the pond, some American antics seem a little amusing...
Chris

Or sometimes even more than "a little" ?

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:28 pm Far too many fine old trombones get hacked about to try and make a mediocre players life easier. The results are usually depressing. Sorry, but it's true. If an instrument is fifty or more years old, plays very well in it's own terms and is original DON'T MESS WITH IT. Either learn to play it or sell it on to someone who will. There are lots of good modern instruments out there that play wonderfully.... get one.
If you, on the other hand, you find an old trombone that requires work to be playable and may have already been messed with, then go for it. I have both highly original and highly modified old instruments as a result of the above philosophy. Talking old Conns, the leadpipes were very much part of the horn and best not changed, in my opinion. You learn how to work with them. Don't put freer blowing valves on and expect it to still play like a Conn... been there, done that. It won't.
Often the best thing is a rebuild by a good tech...as standard as possible... it will look the same but work as it should.

Chris

I tend to agree. Modern instruments are designed to play better and easier than previous designs. The trade off to my ears is the players ability to easily color the sound of the instrument. You can spend a lot of money modifying an instrument and end up with mediocre sounding horn.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:22 pm

Tbarh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:13 pm
Why?

To simplify it a bit... how many countries rely largely (not entirely) on horns from another country from a certain time period?

Germany at least has historical origins for their instruments that are based in... well, Germany.

Maybe Just a result of wanting the best sound possible..