TromboneChat

Hello friends,

In April of this year, I traveled to Göttingen, Germany, to the Max Planck Institute for Biophysical Chemistry, to take part in a new study of brass players that captures real-time MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) video images while playing the trombone. The MRI Brass Repository Project (http://www.gordon.edu/mrihorn)has previously studied a large cohort of elite and focal dystonic french horn players and is now turning its attention to trombonists. I was asked to lead the trombone study and I wrote the protocol for subjects to play.

This project allows us to see inside our oral cavity and examine the tongue, glottis, oropharynx, soft palate and other members of the mouth in real-time while playing. To say that this is game-changing research would be a profound understatement, and research is ongoing to unpack what these videos are discovering.

I have written a long article about what I did and learned that is accompanied by photos, musical examples, and 11 videos of my playing trombone in the MRI scanner. I invite you to read it and see the unseen:

https://thelasttrombone.com/2017/08/22/seeing-the-unseen-trombone-playing-through-the-eye-of-a-mri-scanner-with-the-mri-brass-repository-project/

-Douglas Yeo

Fantastic, Doug, thank you for doing that!

I'm curious about your rapid air attacks. It looks to me like what is happening is not so much that the air is starting each new articulation (I can't hear the air stopping in order to re-start, especially on the slower ones), but that your lips are closing and re-opening rapidly. Of course, it's a chicken-egg situation...

I haven't had time to read or watch this as yet (Daughter getting married in 4 days time  ) but an immediate thought.
On the various occasions when I have had MRI scans, they have checked that there is no metal around-even a zip pull on some boxer shorts! but they ask you to play a trombone!!! Was it a Pbone?

Cheers

Stewbones

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Aug 22, 2017, 07:22AMI'm curious about your rapid air attacks. It looks to me like what is happening is not so much that the air is starting each new articulation (I can't hear the air stopping in order to re-start, especially on the slower ones), but that your lips are closing and re-opening rapidly. Of course, it's a chicken-egg situation...

With the air attacks, the tone is not being stopped or started with the lips coming together rapidly. What you are seeing in terms of lip movements in the air attack videos is simply the movement of the lips vibrating as the note is being produced. The air attacks are produced by the pulsing of the air although whether or not the glottis is involved is something that needs further research since the glottis isn't seen in these air attack videos. This is a subject that's not very well understood, and seeing all of this thanks to the MRI scanner is giving us a lot to think about as we gain new understanding.

Quote from: Stewbones43 on Aug 22, 2017, 07:58AMI haven't had time to read or watch this as yet (Daughter getting married in 4 days time  ) but an immediate thought.
On the various occasions when I have had MRI scans, they have checked that there is no metal around-even a zip pull on some boxer shorts! but they ask you to play a trombone!!! Was it a Pbone?

Cheers

Stewbones

They appear to be mostly concerned about magnetic materials like steel or iron.  They asked me if I did any machining work that might leave chips of steel or iron in my skin.  Also, some tattoo inks have iron in them so tattoos are out if you need an MRI.  I don't think a brass trombone is an issue.  Nickel plating might be, though!

Fascinating! Thanks for posting and I look forward to comparing this with what subsequent trombonists do under the MRI.

I was fascinated by how much the tongue arched up for the high Bb..

Quote from: Stewbones43 on Aug 22, 2017, 07:58AMI haven't had time to read or watch this as yet (Daughter getting married in 4 days time  ) but an immediate thought.
On the various occasions when I have had MRI scans, they have checked that there is no metal around-even a zip pull on some boxer shorts! but they ask you to play a trombone!!! Was it a Pbone?

Cheers

Stewbones

Like you, I am bookmarking this for the future 'cos I don't have time to examine it right now, but I remember when Sarah Willis did this, I think she used a plastic mouthpiece + a long tube...? (Again, not taking the time to rewatch the video, I might be wrong)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA

Quote from: LowrBrass on Aug 23, 2017, 05:52AMLike you, I am bookmarking this for the future 'cos I don't have time to examine it right now, but I remember when Sarah Willis did this, I think she used a plastic mouthpiece + a long tube...? (Again, not taking the time to rewatch the video, I might be wrong)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA


Some of the photos show Doug in a very similar situation; looks like a mouthpiece & plastic tube running to a bell down between his feet. It's a fascinating write-up, you will enjoy it when you get the time.

The motion of his tongue surprised me.  It is horizontal, back and forth in the mouth.  The tip does not move up to the roof of the mouth vertically.  (people advocate both methods but you never know what's really happening) 

It goes a long way forward.  It looks like it touches lips, maybe even tongues between them.  Is that some spit spray forward of the mouth? 

On high Bb the tongue is up against the top.  How does he play the double?  there's nowhere to do, it must be something other than tongue arch.

I also see no sign of dorsal tonguing.  I'd like to see an MRI of someone who advocates that, to see if they really do it.

Hello Doug...
I  see that you are not wasting your time in "retirement." Good on ya!!!

If you haven't seen it, there is a very interesting thread about your MRI experience on the Facebook Trombone Pedagogy page. Gabe is involved, as am I and a number of other serious teachers of the trombone art and craft. Go check it out if you get a chance.

Thanks for doing this, by the way. I have become much more cognizant over the last couple of years about what my "dark side of the so-called 'embouchure'" is doing when I play...the tongue behind the attack areas. The various MRI studies are very valuable. Great work, as always, and thanks again.

Later...

Sam

Quote from: sabutin on Aug 23, 2017, 08:56AMIf you haven't seen it, there is a very interesting thread about your MRI experience on the Facebook Trombone Pedagogy page. Gabe is involved, as am I and a number of other serious teachers of the trombone art and craft. Go check it out if you get a chance.

Thanks, Sam. I don't do Facebook so I can't see the Trombone Pedagogy FB page. But I'm glad you're all having a good discussion.

Here is a bit of information I added to my article this morning, at the request of Dr. Jens Frahm, to make something more clear:

"In my videos, the tip of my tongue was not always imaged as clearly as it is with some other players when it moves to the most anterior (frontal) position. The reason for this is the fact that I have a titanium dental implant in one of my eye teeth that created what is called a susceptibility artifact that led to some signal intensity alterations at that place in my mouth. This is sometime seen as quick flashes of light that some may mistake for spit/saliva. This metal implant did not, however, affect the clarity of the imaging in any other part of my oral cavity, and ongoing study with other trombonists who do not have such a dental implant will result in additional video with greater clarity of the tongue in its most frontal position."

As to the bells, the kind of metal that absolutely cannot be in the scanner room is anything that has iron (ferrous metal). This is because the powerful magnets that drive the MRI scanner would attract that metal and obvious problems would ensue. The ring in many brass instrument bell beads is made of steel, an alloy of iron, so YAMAHA made trombone bells with brass bead rings that were non-ferrous.

Someone also mentioned earlier that tattoos are problematic in MRI scanners and that is true. Many inks that today's tattoo parlor employ have metal in them. When I was in Göttingen, a young horn player with focal dystonia came to be tested. She had a large tattoo on her back and she had to sign a waiver of liability in order to continue with the exam. The danger with tattoos is not so much that the metal in the tattoo will interfere with the scanner since the amount is so small, but a tattoo can get very hot in a scanner and that can result in discomfort or even burns. This woman reported that her back got very hot in the scanner as a result of her tattoo although fortunately she was not burned. This is just another thing to keep in mind when you get a tattoo, since some day, you may need an MRI for medical purposes and some facilities won't allow people with tattoos in a MRI scanner.

And Sam - by the way, I was at the Historic Brass Symposium in NYC last month (premiering a new duet for serpent and ophicleide with Scott Robinson) and really enjoyed your performance as part of the James Reese Europe Band. I couldn't get up to the stage to see you but the concert was absolutely first rate. Bravo.

-DY

Excellent post, Doug!! 

Amazing post.

Wow! Really great post. Thanks for sharing Doug.

Fridge

Quote from: yeodoug on Aug 23, 2017, 12:42PM
---snip---

And Sam - by the way, I was at the Historic Brass Symposium in NYC last month (premiering a new duet for serpent and ophicleide with Scott Robinson) and really enjoyed your performance as part of the James Reese Europe Band. I couldn't get up to the stage to see you but the concert was absolutely first rate. Bravo.

-DY



I'm sorry I missed you. I was on a sort of marathon, myself...too many gigs and rehearsals over too few days on too many instruments with too little sleep. I am glad you enjoyed it. Two or three more rehearsals and a couple more performances and it would have been truly great. I so love all of the various threads that have eventually woven themselves into NYC-style "Pan-American" idioms. No James Reese Europe, no Fletcher Henderson as far as I am concerned. And no Fletcher Henderson, no Duke Ellington. No Duke? No me. Not really.

See you somewhere, I hope. Get in touch if you're in NYC again.

Later...

Sam

Stewbones and others. MRI uses magnetic field to spin water molecules in your body. Non ferrous metals are not affected by the magnet. The tube is because you couldn't fit the trombone in the scanner and play it.

The brass bits of a trombone  are not the issue. It is the steel screws and the water key that would create problems

Stewbones and others. MRI uses magnetic field to spin water molecules in your body. Non ferrous metals are not affected by the magnet. The tube is because you couldn't fit the trombone in the scanner and play it.

The brass bits of a trombone  are not the issue. It is the steel screws and the water key that would create problems