TromboneChat

For the first time in forever, I was offered a nice paying gig today. And for the first time probably ever in history, I turned it down. It was a Christmas program at a Baptist quasi mega church. I asked the director what precautions were being taken for covid. He first said something like "we will try to spread everyone out." I pressed him a bit more and learned that they are planning on using a full unmasked choir and that while the congregation would be asked to socially distance, no masks were required. That was a deal breaker for me, so I said no. I kind of find it hard to believe that a church would even plan a program like this, but these are Southern Baptists and probably 95% Trump voters, so I guess I should not be surprised. I hope nobody catches the big C and dies from this gig.

Sounds like a superspreader event. I support your decision.

I would have turned it down also. No, hell no.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:52 pm I would have turned it down also. No, hell no.

Yep, my brass quintet just got the call for a lucrative Christmas Eve Service. Not a Southern Baptist Church, but a large Catholic Church. They claim to have plans for spreading out and reducing numbers. Since this service in Maryland, I imagine that masks will be required.

Since I just found out today, I don't know how the other quintet members will feel about it. It is not as simple as...."the safe thing to do is say NO." This is a church that hires our quintet for multiple Masses every year. If we turn it down as a quintet, they might hire a willing-to-perform group and then we could possibly lose a standing set of gigs (about five per year) that we have maintained for several years. I'm thinking that I might send in a young gun to play for me on this gig (I had heart surgery in late 2019). I'm very anxious to hear what my quintet colleagues are thinking.

I recently accepted and played a simple southern baptist gig where the brass players were all about 15' apart, and required to have some sort of bell covering. It was turned down by 2 people who were both much higher risk than I am, and while I'm certainly not immune or impervious, I felt like adequate precautions were taken. Everyone was very conscious of the situation, and no one was dismissive. There was no choir, which to me would have been a more serious situation.

My trombone quartet has taken to meeting once a week outside under an open gazebo, spaced appropriately. We have two high risk people who found this acceptable. This will work while the weather is nice.

Musical events have been my main social outlet for many years, and this sequestration has taken its toll on my emotional state. I think a small amount of risk is acceptable given the damage it might cause to other areas of my life. I don't think I'm dismissive or irresponsible, but there has to be a little balance.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:20 pm but these are Southern Baptists and probably 95% Trump voters

Shame on you for feeling that this was relevant or important to this discussion! You are entitled to your opinions, as are others, but this is not the place for poitical bigotry.

My son has a couple of friends now working in Texas as corrections officers. They contracted Covid about six months ago. Both individuals in their 20's have lingering effects. One has ongoing chest pain, tightness and breathing issues and has been hospitalized six times in as many months. He feels he will not be able to maintain the minimal fitness standards to keep his job. The corrections dept will not even entertain line of duty illness even though he doesn't do anything outside of work and they had known cases within the system. This is nothing to mess around with.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:43 am

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:20 pm but these are Southern Baptists and probably 95% Trump voters

Shame on you for feeling that this was relevant or important to this discussion! You are entitled to your opinions, as are others, but this is not the place for poitical bigotry.

I disagree. This is an "evangelical" church. Evangelicals are one of Trump's biggest support groups.

Trump supporters tend to be less diligent about mask wearing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-t ... blogHeader


That is not bigotry - it is a simple fact. I am not judging anyone here. They are welcome to have their unmasked Christmas service. I just choose not to be part of it.

I lived in the south for over 20 years. I agree with Mike's assessment as being accurate.

He’s right in some way. I live in florida, with a republican governor, and guess what, schools open with little to no guidelines. My county, which is mostly republican, voted against a mandatory mask rule. I chose to take everything online but band, and so i go to school for a couple hours and then go home. I have multiple family members at home that are high risk, so i wear a mask. Can you guess who doesn’t wear a mask? The kids who wear trump merch and are constantly arguing with kids about a president they can’t vote for. There’s an obvious correlation between trump supporters and their choice to not wear a mask.
I also agree with ssking, you didn’t really need to add that comment. I’m sure this thread will get locked up because of it

Why bring the subject of President Trump and his supporters into a discussion about whether to turn down a gig where the organizers and participants seem careless about health precautions, especially just to take a political cheap shot?

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:41 pm Yep, my brass quintet just got the call for a lucrative Christmas Eve Service. Not a Southern Baptist Church, but a large Catholic Church. They claim to have plans for spreading out and reducing numbers. Since this service in Maryland, I imagine that masks will be required.

Since I just found out today, I don't know how the other quintet members will feel about it. It is not as simple as...."the safe thing to do is say NO." This is a church that hires our quintet for multiple Masses every year. If we turn it down as a quintet, they might hire a willing-to-perform group and then we could possibly lose a standing set of gigs (about five per year) that we have maintained for several years. I'm thinking that I might send in a young gun to play for me on this gig (I had heart surgery in late 2019). I'm very anxious to hear what my quintet colleagues are thinking.

Brian,

You guys are still playing that gig? Awesome! I remember there were quite a few well paying brass gigs when I was living there.

Take care Buddy!!

Hey Jerry!

Actually, a different church now. The world of church gigging is very interesting. Sometimes a new music/choir director will enter and regularly-hired brass musicians get shown the door. Usually, another opportunity comes along in good time. I feel extremely fortunate to have had a steady calendar of church gigs for about 30 years here in Maryland. I just try to do a quality job so they keep calling!

For this Christmas Eve, I ended up turning down the job to be safe. We did offer the church some options for smaller numbers of musicians. I'm just hoping we can maintain a relationship as a "quintet" with the church.

Knowing how my wallet is doing, i'd probably take that gig regardless and then socially isolate myself in my bed for weeks, if I caught COVID. Good for you for making the better decision.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:01 pm Knowing how my wallet is doing, i'd probably take that gig regardless and then socially isolate myself in my bed for weeks, if I caught COVID. Good for you for making the better decision.

A couple of other folks from my regular quintet did decide to take it. And there is probably a 99% chance that I would be fine. But I just turned 60 and my mom is 98, so I am not taking any chances.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:01 pm Knowing how my wallet is doing, i'd probably take that gig regardless and then socially isolate myself in my bed for weeks, if I caught COVID.

Unfortunately, Brian, catching and recovering from COVID is not always as simple as staying in bed for a few weeks. We have one friend who died after "catching" it; another who barely escaped (33 days in ICU, 15 days on ventilator in an "induced coma"). She's 52 years old, and still recovering after several months. Aftereffects may yet emerge. This virus is a truly nasty bug, that we don't completely understand, and is not to be fooled with. I know you're young and healthy, and feeling a bit invulnerable. You're not!

Take care. Stay safe. Don't share your air.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:11 pm

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:01 pm Knowing how my wallet is doing, i'd probably take that gig regardless and then socially isolate myself in my bed for weeks, if I caught COVID.

Unfortunately, Brian, catching and recovering from COVID is not always as simple as staying in bed for a few weeks. We have one friend who died after "catching" it; another who barely escaped (33 days in ICU, 15 days on ventilator in an "induced coma"). She's 52 years old, and still recovering after several months. Aftereffects may yet emerge. This virus is a truly nasty bug, that we don't completely understand, and is not to be fooled with. I know you're young and healthy, and feeling a bit invulnerable. You're not!

Take care. Stay safe. Don't share your air.

I definitely don't feel invulnerable to COVID, and I am trying my best not to get it or spread it. I just meant with the shape of the music industry, i'd probably take the gig.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:28 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:11 pm

Unfortunately, Brian, catching and recovering from COVID is not always as simple as staying in bed for a few weeks. We have one friend who died after "catching" it; another who barely escaped (33 days in ICU, 15 days on ventilator in an "induced coma"). She's 52 years old, and still recovering after several months. Aftereffects may yet emerge. This virus is a truly nasty bug, that we don't completely understand, and is not to be fooled with. I know you're young and healthy, and feeling a bit invulnerable. You're not!

Take care. Stay safe. Don't share your air.

I definitely don't feel invulnerable to COVID, and I am trying my best not to get it or spread it. I just meant with the shape of the music industry, i'd probably take the gig.

I can understand your position. It's the same for all performing arts and hospitality workers. As a senior with pre-existing vulnerabilities I'd probably turn down the gig as well, but if the risks are less (and I suspect they are for you) it might be OK to take the gig.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:28 pm I definitely don't feel invulnerable to COVID, and I am trying my best not to get it or spread it. I just meant with the shape of the music industry, i'd probably take the gig.

I feel your pain, Brian. I know many currently-unemployed musicians whose financial situation is ever more precarious.

Hang in there and stay safe!

Thanks guys. Everybody is in the same or similar boat, just glad there's a lot of support going around.

Best,

Even non-professional performing arts groups are having problems. I am president of a community orchestra and we can't perform because we have been banned from our auditorium (wich is part of a school). Even if we could, we couldn't perform before any sizable audience (state rules).

We have a consortium of Boston area community orchestras all of whom are trying to figure out what we can do during the crisis to continue performing and especially to bring in money to keep operations going.

FWIW, I don't get any money for my job...

I have two friends who are 20-30 years older than I am, and I'm taking gigs that they turn down. I don't think I'm being reckless, certainly don't feel invulnerable , and I'm just as terrified of the virus as anyone. But a combination of things lead me to take the jobs. First, I just want to play. Second, my emotional health depends to some extent on being around other people, and music for me is a way to help keep from going crazy. Third, I know music raises the spirits of other people, and if I can help others in that way and do it in a responsible way, I'm gonna do it.

So, we're playing in small groups, taking mask precautions, playing in large ventilated spaces, with no choir, where the audience or congregation is small or well spaced.

I've seen how my friends with multiple vulnerabilities are handling this (essentially like a potential death sentence), and I don't blame anyone for being cautious. If I get to the gig and think the situation feels unsafe or is not being taken seriously, I'll walk out.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:43 am

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:20 pm but these are Southern Baptists and probably 95% Trump voters

Shame on you for feeling that this was relevant or important to this discussion! You are entitled to your opinions, as are others, but this is not the place for poitical bigotry.

It is well established that there is a strong relationship between political attitudes and beliefs about COVID precautionary measures, particularly masking.

SARS-CoV-2 doesn't know or care a whit about anyone's political beliefs or attitudes. The simple fact is that GOP politicians and their supporters are directly responsible for a lot of our current misery. I didn't read OP's statement as anything but an acknowledgement that another superspreader event is about to happen, and like most superspreader events it's probably being sponsored by reactionaries affiliated with the GOP.

He didn't turn down the gig because they are likely Trump supporters, he turned it down because it is a probable superspreader event. Saying "NO" is the only responsible action.

One epidemiology factor a lot of folks have learned is the basic reproduction number, R[sub]0[/sub]. There is another important concept people need to learn: the k number, or dispersion factor. The dispersion factor for SARS-CoV-2 is pretty low. Rather than going through the math, I'll cut to the chase and tell you what it means: it means that a few people (super-spreaders) are responsible for most of the disease transmission. In terms of social behavior, it means that the more people are gathered with the higher the likelihood that a super-spreader will be in the crowd. It only takes one. Look at Trump's Rose Garden Victory lap for Amy Barrett on September 26. At least 8 people were infected at that event. (The White House didn't do contact tracing, so we don't know exactly how many cases resulted.) Being indoors is more dangerous than being outdoors. Being with more people is more dangerous than being with fewer people. Being without a mask, indoors, with a large number of people is simply stupid. Denying that masks are effective, denying that mass indoor gatherings are dangerous is denying the math.

We need a means of identifying super-spreaders. We need a vaccine to protect us from super-spreaders. Until we have those things, we have to rely on social methods: masks, contact tracing, and distancing. (Except we have allowed things to get so bad that contact tracing isn't really possible now.) It stinks. I haven't seen my sons in over a year. I haven't seen my grandkids. I can't rehearse and perform with my friends. It will likely be Fall of next year before I get to do those things again. It stinks, but not nearly as much as being in an ICU hooked to a ventilator stinks (and that assumes that an ICU bed is available--they are in very short supply in most of the US just now).

Am I angry? Yes, I'm beyond angry: I'm furious. This disaster was mostly avoidable, and responsibility for it lies right at the door of the Oval Office and his enablers and followers. Public health should not be a political football. Trump chose to make it one. Trump chose to lie to us about what was happening, and he continues to lie to us.

Dennis wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:45 pm Am I angry? Yes, I'm beyond angry: I'm furious. This disaster was mostly avoidable, ...

Thanks you Dennis.

Dennis wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:45 pm

ssking2b wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:43 am
Shame on you for feeling that this was relevant or important to this discussion! You are entitled to your opinions, as are others, but this is not the place for poitical bigotry.

It is well established that there is a strong relationship between political attitudes and beliefs about COVID precautionary measures, particularly masking.

SARS-CoV-2 doesn't know or care a whit about anyone's political beliefs or attitudes. The simple fact is that GOP politicians and their supporters are directly responsible for a lot of our current misery. I didn't read OP's statement as anything but an acknowledgement that another superspreader event is about to happen, and like most superspreader events it's probably being sponsored by reactionaries affiliated with the GOP.

He didn't turn down the gig because they are likely Trump supporters, he turned it down because it is a probable superspreader event. Saying "NO" is the only responsible action.

One epidemiology factor a lot of folks have learned is the basic reproduction number, R[sub]0[/sub]. There is another important concept people need to learn: the k number, or dispersion factor. The dispersion factor for SARS-CoV-2 is pretty low. Rather than going through the math, I'll cut to the chase and tell you what it means: it means that a few people (super-spreaders) are responsible for most of the disease transmission. In terms of social behavior, it means that the more people are gathered with the higher the likelihood that a super-spreader will be in the crowd. It only takes one. Look at Trump's Rose Garden Victory lap for Amy Barrett on September 26. At least 8 people were infected at that event. (The White House didn't do contact tracing, so we don't know exactly how many cases resulted.) Being indoors is more dangerous than being outdoors. Being with more people is more dangerous than being with fewer people. Being without a mask, indoors, with a large number of people is simply stupid. Denying that masks are effective, denying that mass indoor gatherings are dangerous is denying the math.

We need a means of identifying super-spreaders. We need a vaccine to protect us from super-spreaders. Until we have those things, we have to rely on social methods: masks, contact tracing, and distancing. (Except we have allowed things to get so bad that contact tracing isn't really possible now.) It stinks. I haven't seen my sons in over a year. I haven't seen my grandkids. I can't rehearse and perform with my friends. It will likely be Fall of next year before I get to do those things again. It stinks, but not nearly as much as being in an ICU hooked to a ventilator stinks (and that assumes that an ICU bed is available--they are in very short supply in most of the US just now).

Am I angry? Yes, I'm beyond angry: I'm furious. This disaster was mostly avoidable, and responsibility for it lies right at the door of the Oval Office and his enablers and followers. Public health should not be a political football. Trump chose to make it one. Trump chose to lie to us about what was happening, and he continues to lie to us.

Epidemiologist here. Everything Dennis said is correct, but to add a couple caveats - we only found out about the famous/powerful people infected at the Rose Garden superspreading event, and ignored all the nameless staff (caterers, maintenance workers, really everyone who keeps the WH running). And while national leadership has grotesquely failed us, state and local leaders have stepped up to earn their share of blame as well. That applies to leaders from both parties, though one has, on average, been much worse than the other. It is not "political bigotry" to point out leaders adopting murderously negligent policy choices.

Ron Desantis (or “deathsantis” as floridians call him) is a prime example of what was just brought up.

I would like to humbly suggest that we end this topic.

A few posts have been perpetuating divisiveness and are bringing politics into the discussion which I believe is against the terms of service.

However, we are limiting the subject material strictly to topics that do not involve politics, religion, sciences, economics, or anything that has the potential to lead to contentious discussion.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5703

Heck, I started this one and haven't even looked at it for a month. Not trying to get too political - just stating facts.

FWIW, the last of my living HS band directors passed away yesterday from COVID. He was 85, but in pretty good health before getting hit with the virus.

Here in SC, our idiot governor has pretty much ended restrictions on restaurant occupancy and refuses to issue a mask mandate. Meanwhile, we are closing in on 3,000 new cases a day and I am keeping my butt at home as much as possible.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:36 pm
Epidemiologist here. Everything Dennis said is correct, but to add a couple caveats - we only found out about the famous/powerful people infected at the Rose Garden superspreading event, and ignored all the nameless staff (caterers, maintenance workers, really everyone who keeps the WH running). And while national leadership has grotesquely failed us, state and local leaders have stepped up to earn their share of blame as well. That applies to leaders from both parties, though one has, on average, been much worse than the other. It is not "political bigotry" to point out leaders adopting murderously negligent policy choices.

Biostatistician here. Thanks for adding the part that I elided about the worker bees who have caught this thing (and continue to catch it) keeping the White House going.

If I could advise President-elect Biden, I'd humbly suggest that he close the White House from January 20 to President's Day, and give all the White House staff a paid month to get their health affairs sorted out and get the White House cleaned out.

Mike, I'm sorry about the death of your friend. I'm glad my parents and my wife's parents are gone now. Not that I don't miss my folks: I do. But I don't have to worry about them.

glenp wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:04 am I would like to humbly suggest that we end this topic.

A few posts have been perpetuating divisiveness and are bringing politics into the discussion which I believe is against the terms of service.

However, we are limiting the subject material strictly to topics that do not involve politics, religion, sciences, economics, or anything that has the potential to lead to contentious discussion.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5703

Well said!

I think that this thread is valuable. To take on or not take on playing gigs in this worldwide pandemic is a health issue. What measures minimise the risks and what do not is a very important conversation on this international forum. I am going back today, having read the company's risk assessment and feeling enough is being done.
Any nation that has politicized this health issue is a nation that is not in a normal state and is a subject of sadness and sympathy in the rest of the civilised world.
Chris

Please excuse my rant – it's late at night, but I have to get this off my chest. [I may regret it in the morning!]

This topic is important (that is if you think survival is important), and need not involve religion or politics or politicians per se. I try my best to avoid politics, and am not a fan of either political party, many of whose adherents seem to be in it for themselves, not for the common good.

But it is not inappropriate to point out the irresponsibility of those who object to sensible behavior to protect ourselves and each other, nor is it making a political statement to do so. Whatever are our political or religious beliefs, the most effective actions we can take to prevent the spread of Covid 19 – from us to others or from others to us – are:
• Wear a suitable face mask, reasonably tightly covering mouth and nose;
• Keep a reasonable distance from others (about 6 feet or more seems acceptable);
• When not possible to maintain distance, limit time spent close to others to a few minutes.
• Because of the above, avoid large gatherings or close contact with others outside your family.

Of course this is not always possible for many of us, who must still go to work, grow our food, deliver our medical care, teach our children, provide various essential services, or in general keep our economy limping along. But to unnecessarily flaunt these simple guidelines just to make a point is not just ignorant and inconsiderate, it is aggressively dangerous, and should not be tolerated. I don’t care which party you belong to, which religion you follow, or what your excuse is. Contracting this corona virus is potentially fatal; ignoring it is like playing Russian Roulette – except that your pistol is pointed not just at yourself but also at me and anyone else around you.

Those who are actively protesting common-sense, life-saving protocols by assembling unmasked in large numbers, yelling and shouting (which exacerbates the spread of the virus) are, it seems to me, committing potential manslaughter. [We have had such well-attended protests nearby.] Not everyone who contracts the virus will have an easy course with their disease. Some – too many – will die. Some – too many – will have long-lasting and serious aftereffects.

To a large extent, it’s because of our not taking this danger seriously, or by so many actively resisting sensible behavior, that we are well on our way to a half million Covid deaths in the United States. This is why tens of millions of Americans have lost their only sources of income. This is why many musicians have no idea how they will survive financially. This is why it’s not wrong to discuss this topic on TromboneChat or in any other forum. This is why I’m angry, and I expect it’s also why Dennis and Spencer are angry. If you endanger others, I will call you out. If you threaten my life, I will fight back.

What are you doing to keep others safe?

Bit of a side rant

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:59 amI try my best to avoid politics,

Broadly speaking, politics is the means of organizing group decisions, especially in the allocation of a society's collective resources. If you care about support for music education, or funding for scientific research, or even just want that pothole on your street filled, then yes, you are interested in politics. (And note that apathy towards any of the above use of resources is also a political stance) I find that when people say something shouldn't be political, they often mean it shouldn't be partisan, in the red team vs blue team dichotomy of US government. In a better political order, acceptance of basic reality (in this case on infectious disease, and I'll refrain from citing other examples) would not break down on party lines.

There's a good argument to be made for messaging that downplays the current partisan divide, since making adherence to public health guidelines a marker of party loyalty will prime half the population to put themselves and others in unnecessary danger just to "own the libs." At the same time, pointing out that specific policy choices made by specific leaders have led to completely avoidable mass death is a necessary part of understanding how we got in this situation, and how we can move forward. There's no way for such discussions to be apolitical, though they may be nonpartisan.

I agree with the rest of what Posaunus said, although in general I'm less angry at individual covid deniers who have heard conflicting information on a confusing topic than I am at leaders who had the resources to know and do better, but chose to abandon their people.

Trump knew it was dangerous (Woodward discussion) but deliberately downplayed it.

285,000 dead in the US. So far.

glenp wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:04 am I would like to humbly suggest that we end this topic.

A few posts have been perpetuating divisiveness and are bringing politics into the discussion which I believe is against the terms of service.

However, we are limiting the subject material strictly to topics that do not involve politics, religion, sciences, economics, or anything that has the potential to lead to contentious discussion.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5703

Again well said!

I find comparisons between this pandemic and 1918-1920 "Spanish" Flu is interesting. People who chose not to mask created super spreader events then as well as now.

Contentious discussion? As in opposing points of view? Heaven forbid.

I do agree that a conversation of how to be a musician in a Covid world is important and can help others to refine their own thought processes about what gigs to accept or reject.

I made the suggestion to end the thread because there have been accusations against groups of people based on their political and religious affiliations. If you want to discuss the selfishness of not wearing a mask and socially distancing, that doesn't bother me. If you want to discuss how to proceed as a musician in light of others selfishness, I think that is fine too. And I would join you!

But it is very unwelcoming to make accusations against groups of people simply because they belong to that group. Here are some examples:

but these are Southern Baptists and probably 95% Trump voters, so I guess I should not be surprised

This is an "evangelical" church. Evangelicals are one of Trump's biggest support groups. Trump supporters tend to be less diligent about mask wearing.

There’s an obvious correlation between trump supporters and their choice to not wear a mask.

The simple fact is that GOP politicians and their supporters are directly responsible for a lot of our current misery.

This disaster was mostly avoidable, and responsibility for it lies right at the door of the Oval Office and his enablers and followers

Some of these statements are upsetting to me and I'm sure to others, and my instinct is to argue on the over-generalizations and statements that I think are fallacious. But I don't think this is the right forum for that.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:03 am I find comparisons between this pandemic and 1918-1920 "Spanish" Flu is interesting. People who chose not to mask created super spreader events then as well as now.

It is really shocking to me that there were so many who refused to wear a mask given how deadly the Spanish Flu was.

glenp wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:11 am I do agree that a conversation of how to be a musician in a Covid world is important and can help others to refine their own thought processes about what gigs to accept or reject.

I made the suggestion to end the thread because there have been accusations against groups of people based on their political and religious affiliations. If you want to discuss the selfishness of not wearing a mask and socially distancing, that doesn't bother me. If you want to discuss how to proceed as a musician in light of others selfishness, I think that is fine too. And I would join you!

But it is very unwelcoming to make accusations against groups of people simply because they belong to that group. Here are some examples:

but these are Southern Baptists and probably 95% Trump voters, so I guess I should not be surprised

This is an "evangelical" church. Evangelicals are one of Trump's biggest support groups. Trump supporters tend to be less diligent about mask wearing.

There’s an obvious correlation between trump supporters and their choice to not wear a mask.

The simple fact is that GOP politicians and their supporters are directly responsible for a lot of our current misery.

This disaster was mostly avoidable, and responsibility for it lies right at the door of the Oval Office and his enablers and followers

Some of these statements are upsetting to me and I'm sure to others, and my instinct is to argue on the over-generalizations and statements that I think are fallacious. But I don't think this is the right forum for that.

glenp wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:43 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:03 am I find comparisons between this pandemic and 1918-1920 "Spanish" Flu is interesting. People who chose not to mask created super spreader events then as well as now.

It is really shocking to me that there were so many who refused to wear a mask given how deadly the Spanish Flu was.

Also, masks available in 1918 were not as effective in stopping airborne transmission as today's masks are.

Note that I put Spanish in quotes since it appears to have started in the US. The illness was quashed in media of all the combatants in World War I. Since Spain was not fighting and they reported the disease, it got named Spanish Flu,

glenp wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:11 am I do agree that a conversation of how to be a musician in a Covid world is important and can help others to refine their own thought processes about what gigs to accept or reject.

I made the suggestion to end the thread because there have been accusations against groups of people based on their political and religious affiliations. If you want to discuss the selfishness of not wearing a mask and socially distancing, that doesn't bother me. If you want to discuss how to proceed as a musician in light of others selfishness, I think that is fine too. And I would join you!

But it is very unwelcoming to make accusations against groups of people simply because they belong to that group. Here are some examples:

but these are Southern Baptists and probably 95% Trump voters, so I guess I should not be surprised

This is an "evangelical" church. Evangelicals are one of Trump's biggest support groups. Trump supporters tend to be less diligent about mask wearing.

There’s an obvious correlation between trump supporters and their choice to not wear a mask.

The simple fact is that GOP politicians and their supporters are directly responsible for a lot of our current misery.

This disaster was mostly avoidable, and responsibility for it lies right at the door of the Oval Office and his enablers and followers

Some of these statements are upsetting to me and I'm sure to others, and my instinct is to argue on the over-generalizations and statements that I think are fallacious. But I don't think this is the right forum for that.

All of these statements you flag as objectionable are based in fact (the exact percentage estimate in the first quote may be off depending on the exact congregation in question, but everything else checks out). I'm sorry if objective reality is upsetting to you.

A long time ago I said I was tired of political bigotry. This entire discussion proves exactly what I meant by the statement. You can do what you want I don't really care.

There are numerous examples of deaths and illness where all your sacred precautions have been taken. Since the flow of news is controlled by a politically motivated press, none of your anecdotal evidence, or political blame can be taken as gospel. In case you hadn't noticed, they are many sick people in places and countries that have nothing to do with America or Trump. That rather belies your "objective reality" outlook.

I don't object to precautions YOU decide to take, or recommendations about precautions, but No one is obliged to follow them simply because you believe they are correct. If you choose to absent yourself from a situation because you consider it unsafe, that's OK . But please don't consider for a minute you you have any right to dictate what others do - you don't have that right no matter what credentials you claim to have.

I'm going to go ahead and temporarily lock this down (pun intended) while we confer about if we want to draw a line sine there are aspects of this that are non political but aspects that are clearly political.... and it HAS turned into a political thing in many countries other than the US too, and around different poles of their political spectrum.

One way or the other, you aren't going to change anyone's mind to take the pandemic any more or less serious here. I, personally, just left my house for I think the 5th time today since February because of physical therapy that I have to go to because of serious back pain. There is a negative 200% chance I would have taken that gig. I can speak to anyone's personal situation, but if you can financially avoid it, I would do exactly what I have and lay low until a vaccine is widespread. It does indeed look imminent, fortunately.