TromboneChat

Conn selmer are spoling us, a new Bach trombone bone and a Conn!

Any one know anything about this? Its on The Horn Guys page and it lists "the NV will have a few distinctions from the Gen 2 88H, including a vintage style bell and modern open wrap F-attachment."

My gut is saying Conn are going for a up to date Elkhart style horn with a ligther unsolderd bell... but could this just be a markating stunt? Are they just tring to distract us with a new wrap and diffrent engraveing? also a new case too apparantly

Achilles Liarmakopoulos is playing one in this vid and its on the Horn guys page too

Looks like only Horn Guys know about this, nothing on the Conn / Selmer site. Achilles sure makes beautiful music in the video though.

Might be a bit confusing using the letter N due to the existence of 88HN (nickel) 88H's already. Don't like it if it's gonna be called 88HNV. New Vintage? Why not just vintage?

They also have the A47 Peter Steiner. Stock screwbell, I'm all in for something more mainstream with screwbell.

Feel kind of bad for Horn Guys since this probably breaks an NDA. Ouch.

88HNV

NV

Get it?

...envy...

Peacemate wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:23 pm Feel kind of bad for Horn Guys since this probably breaks an NDA. Ouch.

I was thinking the same thing. Oof.

brtnats wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:28 pm 88HNV

NV

Get it?

...envy...

The whole of the uk probbly are

Spy photo

Nothing about it seems exciting or makes me want to go get one. The case it comes with is ugly and combursome. If Steve's description of how it plays is accurate then my money is better spent buying a classic 88H of spending a few hundred more on a Shires.

I doubt it breaks an NDA. Honestly, the Conn-Selmer website is utterly and completely out of date. It's atrocious, and has been for quite some time. It doesn't even have pictures of many of their current models that have been in production for years. The Bach line up is the same way, with many missing photos and other information. There is no mention at all of the Peter Steiner horn either.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:35 pm Nothing about it seems exciting or makes me want to go get one. The case it comes with is ugly and combursome. If Steve's description of how it plays is accurate then my money is better spent buying a classic 88H of spending a few hundred more on a Shires.

Uh oh, the 88H police!

I'm really curious to try one. I've spent most of my playing career on good 88Hs. This looks like a nice iteration of the 88H genealogy, but definitely represents a step forward, rather than backward. I have my doubts about whether it's possible to really capture the essence of a vintage 88H wth a soldered rim and a "short" handslide.

The case doesn't look like a good case. The added $380 MSRP over an 88HTO isn't worth it from a student perspective, who let's be real, are the only ones buying 88H's new. Those $380 are better spent on a protec and mouthpiece. Pros presumably already have good cases, so the case doesn't make sense for anybody.

Also, why did they have to make a new wrap? If they want it to look vintage use the stock wrap. If they want it to look vintage maybe don't put a letter mush on the bell engraving.

Honestly, just the marketing aspect of this trombone annoys me. If you want to make a new vintage trombone, make the trombone you're already making but better. The Elkhart 88H is liked because it is good. Make that.

Anyone tried it?

No!

Shuddup then

That wrap looks dumb. Why not just use the Minick wrap?

In any case, I think breathing life back into the 88H is a good thing. What else about this is different?

I'd really like to try it. Thin bell is a good thing and the redesigned wrap is no big deal as I like the traditional design. I wonder what it has to offer over the standard 88HT. I still have the 88HTG in mind if I would get another 88H...

After playing a Latzsch SL-240 at ITF 2018, I found it to be a worthy reinterpretation of the 88H with fine German craftsmanship and a Rotax valve that does not break the bank. (I don't think I could have an old 88H converted to Rotax for the cost of the SL-240.)

Peacemate wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:44 am The case doesn't look like a good case. The added $380 MSRP over an 88HTO isn't worth it from a student perspective, who let's be real, are the only ones buying 88H's new. Those $380 are better spent on a protec and mouthpiece. Pros presumably already have good cases, so the case doesn't make sense for anybody.

Also, why did they have to make a new wrap? If they want it to look vintage use the stock wrap. If they want it to look vintage maybe don't put a letter mush on the bell engraving.

Honestly, just the marketing aspect of this trombone annoys me. If you want to make a new vintage trombone, make the trombone you're already making but better. The Elkhart 88H is liked because it is good. Make that.

So, I'm not in the market for this but I'll note a couple of thoughts if I were...

The case looks good. A soft touch hard case with buckles rather than a zipper and backpack style straps as well as a shoulder strap. Quite frankly, even though I have a dozen cases downstairs if I could get a case like that for my bass I would do it quickly. This looks better than any protec offering I've seen, but I'd have to see the actual execution. So many cases look decent and then are just not good. We all have opinions on cases, and I know we don't all agree, I like the idea of this case, but the execution remains to be seen.

As for the wrap, the current 88HO and 42BO wraps are crap. Both too long and both use rotors with the 180 deg port that a lot of folks don't like. I would not have done it like they did here, but I like that they went back to the 90 degree ports. Also, do not underestimate the idea of visual branding. With a unique wrap (that uses a lot of stock parts they already have handy), you can now visually see that this horn is used by Achilles, and anybody that puts one up on their face, we can identify this particular model from the back of the hall.

Cheers,
Andy

It seems like there is an awful lot of competition for this instrument. Almost every manufacturer has their take on the classic 88h, except an ironically absent conn selmer. I wonder if they're too late to the party.

I'm seeing the case, looks good until you see they did the Bach/Yamaha "let's put the slide on top of the bell instead of along side it" thing. I don't like having to open an extra panel to get at the slide, and they put the slide openings facing the bell instead of having the crook towards the bell. So, when you put the case on the ground or in your locker or whatever, all the moisture you didn't get out before you put it away will leak out into the case, maybe onto the bell.

With the crook the other way, it collects in the crook when you put it down, and the first thing you do when you put your horn together is to empty the water key anyways.

"But I'm carrying it on my back, I've got to. I walk for miles uphill both ways to school. Everyone knows you put the bell up when it's on your back"

Great. The walking motion collects it all in the crook. As soon as you put the horn down, or in your locker or whatever, that pool will go straight onto your bell anyways. Just use the shoulder strap.

If they did it a little wider, side compartment for the slide, crook towards bell, it'd be perfect.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:04 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:35 pm Nothing about it seems exciting or makes me want to go get one. The case it comes with is ugly and combursome. If Steve's description of how it plays is accurate then my money is better spent buying a classic 88H of spending a few hundred more on a Shires.

Uh oh, the 88H police!

There are a lot of other people on this forum that title is better suited to.

On that note, i had the Boneyard build me an 88H bell section that is essentially what this horns design offers, so it appears I'm ahead of the game.

And I've played newer Conns and most have been ok or pretty good, i just prefer older horns, and, i prefer to keep a horn i buy instead of getting something that I'll eventually flip because of being fickle or going for the next shiney thing that comes along.

I NEVER liked the idea and fact of Selmer owning Conn or King. In my opinion, the other brands have taken a backseat while Bach gets all of the attention. You see that in their trumpet line. You even see that in the cases. The Bach cases look WAY nicer compared to what's being offered with this 88H.

And I'm sure the prototypes for this 88H are better players than this model. I tried one of the prototype 88Hs made for Sauer and it played beautifully. And on Steves facebook post i asked if the whole horn was going to Sandhagens in the hopes of trying it so i can see for myself how it plays.

I'm all for Conns getting a moment in the sun, and if a horn plays great for others than great. But with the cost of these newer horns i am better off buying a vintage horn I'm more likely to be happy with or a "boutique " horn that better represents a vintage 88H.

And the term police gives the impression I'm going to pull you over, prefrom an illegal search of your vehicle, beat you while your handcuffed then plant an 88H with a thayer on you to justify the whole ordeal.

*trigger warning* Almost nobody under the age of 50 plays an old Elkhart 88H full time for a reason. Those horns have been mythologized, and there are many incredible examples to be sure, but by and large they have been surpassed by other horns. I would absolutely play a Gen 2 88H over an Elkhart 8 days a week. *dial 88 for the Conn police*

It was time for another upgrade to this classic horn, so I’m hopeful this new 88HNV plays as well as Achilles makes it sound and as good as the Horn Guys pictures make it look. Everybody and their mother makes an 88H style instrument, but it’s never equal to an actual Conn. If you prefer an 88H style instrument from some other maker then you probably don’t like actual 88H’s by definition. It’s like saying “I love classic Mustangs, so I drive a Tesla.”

Saying something is an “improved” 88H by “X-boutique” maker is a fallacy unless it’s made with actual Conn parts. Otherwise it’s just a different horn made under the inspiration of an 88H, which is fine. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s not an “improvement.” Maybe it’s an improvement for you and your playing specially, but it’s not an improvement on a design that is objectively one of the most successful models in trombone history, even still today.

If Tesla made a Mustang copy then your analogy would make more sense.

And I'm under 50 and almost all of my horns are from the Elkhart era, and i don't think they've been surpassed. If anything there are just fewer of them and a lot more brands to choose from.

The pre-judgment against this horn confuses me. I'm not a huge fan of Conns (and even less a fan of Conn-Selmer as a company) but I don't see any reason to be upset about this new model. The case looks as good as or better than most stock cases, relatively compact open valve wrap is nice (does it have E pull?), listed price is right in between Xeno and Strad which is probably about the tier they're aiming for. I'm not in the market for one of these, but if someone were thinking of buying a new 42b/88H/882 this looks to be about as reasonable an addition to the shortlist as any.

And it's nice to see some design iteration on both Bach and Conn trombone models - it's been what, almost 30 years since the last update to Conn trombones?

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:51 am

There are a lot of other people on this forum that title is better suited to.

Who??

Thankfully, you don't have to buy one. I for one am reasonably excited to go try one out at Hornguys when they get it.

As someone else said... I have some LA professional friends that play elky 88Hs, but not many that play tenor primarily. Those players are almost all on Shires, Edwards, Gen II Conns, etc.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:55 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:51 am

There are a lot of other people on this forum that title is better suited to.

Who??

Thankfully, you don't have to buy one. I for one am reasonably excited to go try one out at Hornguys when they get it.

As someone else said... I have some LA professional friends that play elky 88Hs, but not many that play tenor primarily. Those players are almost all on Shires, Edwards, Gen II Conns, etc.

Isn't there a guy or two that have 88H in there online names?


Did those friends chose Elkies or did they happen into them?

And I've said i wouldn't mind trying the new 88HNV, but based on what I've seen, what Steve has said and my disdain for Selmer I'm in no hurry. Hell, I'm not a Bach fan but that new 42 looks nice, but I've also played some newly built 42s and they were sorta not Bachish.

Personally, i think when Selmer bought UMI, they began streamlining production in order to save money and to push more Selmer product than other. Now there's nothing wrong in trying to be more cost effective, but when doing so changes the design of the other products, products that were once competitors, then my interest goes out the window.

The one overwhelming positive i can say is at least it's not a pos B.A.C. built horn.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:10 pm
Isn't there a guy or two that have 88H in there online names?

None of them seemed to have piped up a half dozen times in the last couple days...

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:10 pm


Did those friends chose Elkies or did they happen into them?

And I've said i wouldn't mind trying the new 88HNV, but based on what I've seen, what Steve has said and my disdain for Selmer I'm in no hurry. Hell, I'm not a Bach fan but that new 42 looks nice, but I've also played some newly built 42s and they were sorta not Bachish.

Personally, i think when Selmer bought UMI, they began streamlining production in order to save money and to push more Selmer product than other. Now there's nothing wrong in trying to be more cost effective, but when doing so changes the design of the other products, products that were once competitors, then my interest goes out the window.

One was recommended the horn, the others happened into them.

Companies have to move with the times. The 88H was sold basically unchanged for what, 45 years? The 42B for even longer now.

With the competition in their segment from Getzen, Q series, Chinese horns, they need to change things up, if nothing else than to just garner attention. The same reason the Gen II 88H was designed and released, or the myriad valve options for the 42 that have been offered. Now is no different.

There's not much point in worrying about the "character" of Conns and Bachs if they don't sell and eventually go out of business, like almost all of the other American makers have done.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:35 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:10 pm
Isn't there a guy or two that have 88H in there online names?

None of them seemed to have piped up a half dozen times in the last couple days...

I don't pipe up, i chime in.

And i find their lack chiming in disturbing.

Someday I'll learn how to quote

OK Tbrawn22. I fixed your quote (I think).

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:06 pm OK Tbrawn22. I fixed your quote (I think).

You're awesome!

I hate to judge just based on specs, but no soldered bell can approach the feel of an Elkhart 88H. The "fuzz" that defines those instruments is lost.

This is Conn-Selmer's second attempt at creating a "vintage" 88H. IMO it's their second failed attempt at fixing what wasn't broken.

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:13 pm I hate to judge just based on specs, but no soldered bell can approach the feel of an Elkhart 88H. The "fuzz" that defines those instruments is lost.

This is Conn-Selmer's second attempt at creating a "vintage" 88H. IMO it's their second failed attempt at fixing what wasn't broken.

The minds in trombone chat are more closed off than the feel of the Elkhart 88H rotor. So many condemnations from so many people who have neither 1) seen it in person or 2) played it

castrubone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:18 pm

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:13 pm I hate to judge just based on specs, but no soldered bell can approach the feel of an Elkhart 88H. The "fuzz" that defines those instruments is lost.

This is Conn-Selmer's second attempt at creating a "vintage" 88H. IMO it's their second failed attempt at fixing what wasn't broken.

The minds in trombone chat are more closed off than the feel of the Elkhart 88H rotor. So many condemnations from so many people who have neither 1) seen it in person or 2) played it

If you think an Elkhart 88H rotor is tight, you've never played a good one.

The Elkhart 88H rotor is actually pretty good. The Lindberg CL rotor is better.

A quick call around yesterday to dealers here in the UK where you could say the 88h is still the large bore of choice for most players, resulted in not only isn't there one in the country but also they hadn't been informed by UMI that the horn even exists

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:22 am but also they hadn't been informed by UMI that the horn even exists

Not surprising since UMI hasn't even existed in over 15 years either

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:22 am A quick call around yesterday to dealers here in the UK where you could say the 88h is still the large bore of choice for most players, resulted in not only isn't there one in the country but also they hadn't been informed by UMI that the horn even exists

well there missing out on at lest half there sales then Where I study in the uk 9/13 payers play a gen 2 conn 88h. If I was head of sales at Conn (or who ever it is) I would be sending them over ASAP

Couple of things about the horn that haven't been mentioned yet:

The valve, which at first looked just like a Gen II rotor, is now vented, and in a spot that I've never seen before. Most vented rotors I've seen put the hole on top, not to the side of the valve. I wonder what effect that may have.

The rest of the valve section is also interesting; again, a lot of intentional decisions seem to have been made. For one, there is not a second bell brace which has to make the horn considerably lighter. Conn/Selmer could have easily just added edge bracing like almost every other horn but did not. (Also just now realizing, no other 88H has ever had that second bell brace.)

Unlike past models, there now is no bracing on the bell flare or neckpipe! Very curious. It seems like the wrap maximizes the amount of tubing that is outlining the rest of the bell section, and is also braced very, very close to the bell section.

Like a lot of other brand's valve sections, there are two braces on the f attachment, but neither is on the f tuning slide itself.

I'm excited to try this, but like a lot of people, I think Conn could have gone so much farther with this much-anticipated design that several great players have been asking Conn to make for decades now.

I'm eager to try one of these out, but ideally I'd like to try it with my .562 Conn/Butler slide. Either way I'm definitely interested, even if there's no way the Mrs. will allow me to buy another trombone.

So much Elkhart hate from those calling Elkhart owners haters.

I just don't like gimmicks, which on the surface is all this horn is. It's like introducing a limited edition of a car with the only difference being a decal, fancy rims and an exclusive paint job. Get past the hype and you'll find it's the same car as the previous years and types.

And calling "New Vintage" is silly. How can vintage be new?

If it plays great then cool. Again, my issues are that this latest incarnation of the 88H brings nothing new to the table whereas the new Bach 42 has a lot of features that make it stand out from other Bach 42s.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:22 pm

I just don't like gimmicks, which on the surface is all this horn is. It's like introducing a limited edition of a car with the only difference being a decal, fancy rims and an exclusive paint job. Get past the hype and you'll find it's the same car as the previous years and types.

Welcome to the business world! If it sells, they'll do it for the next 50 years.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:27 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:22 pm

I just don't like gimmicks, which on the surface is all this horn is. It's like introducing a limited edition of a car with the only difference being a decal, fancy rims and an exclusive paint job. Get past the hype and you'll find it's the same car as the previous years and types.

Welcome to the business world! If it sells, they'll do it for the next 50 years.

I know how the world spins, I don't have to like it. I'm not a cat easily distracted by a laser pointer.

Honestly, because of how i feel towards marketing by big companies, I'm having more custom work done. People like Sandhagen, Jeff Gittleson , Eric Edwards and even Brad Close are doing great things with their small shops. And with companies like Instrument Innovations making quality product and affordable prices we as trombonist have plenty of avenues to get quality craftsmanship without being patronized by larger companies.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:32 pm

Honestly, because of how i feel towards marketing by big companies, I'm having more custom work done.

Then it sounds like you're not the market demographic. No problem with that, I'm not either... but I don't have to hate the company for doing what they need to to stay alive.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:03 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:32 pm

Honestly, because of how i feel towards marketing by big companies, I'm having more custom work done.

Then it sounds like you're not the market demographic. No problem with that, I'm not either... but I don't have to hate the company for doing what they need to to stay alive.

I don't hate Conn. I hate Selmer. Just like i don't hate star wars, i just hate Disney. And i don't want people to lose their jobs because of my dislikes about a paticular corporation, but as a consumer I'd like to be treated with more respect. It seems like most corporations have adopted the business model of "dump the older, long time consumer and start marketing to the younger, more naive consumer". Now i know that's a rather cynical approach, but in my experience with most things i have enjoyed that cynicism is justified. And prehaps that's why i like classic and vintage things, from horns to cars to movies etc.

Again... that's business. Every corporation of all time has done this. As they have to to stay relevant.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:39 pm Again... that's business. Every corporation of all time has done this. As they have to to stay relevant.

Or, maybe, make a quality product that they can stand behind without gimmicks?

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:46 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:39 pm Again... that's business. Every corporation of all time has done this. As they have to to stay relevant.

Or, maybe, make a quality product that they can stand behind without gimmicks?

What's the gimmick?

Man, I do not understand the tone of so many posts on the forum lately. I'm reminded of this:

"Hey, so and so is playing the new and improved (insert generic brand/model)." But there's nothing new or improved of any real substance. They could've used Matthew McConaughey to market the horn and you'd get from younger trombone players "Wow! Matthew McConaughey plays (insert generic brand/model)" instead of asking the obvious questions an older more experienced player would ask like "Matthew McConaughey plays trombone"?

And as I've said before, in the overall agreement, that yes, i need to play the horn to make a final conclusion. But then i could say it wasn't great at all thus justifying my initial conclusion while someone would then argue maybe i tried a "bad" one. I have had only a couple of duds that were Elkhart Conns. Those, however, in comparison to the number of dud post-Elkhart horns I've played/tried/owned doesn't even come close. And the wrap on the 88HNV would've been innovative 30-40 years ago if it weren't, Minick inspired, other companies have been going to that style more and more and if i just didn't have almost the exact samething built for me.

So, from my perspective, there are gimmicks. Gimmicks which cover up lack of true innovation in design. Heck, as crappy and short lived K valves were, they were a gimmick from a marketing standpoint but at least it was something new and innovative.

And making new shiney elaborate engraving. That's a gimmick too.

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:03 pm Man, I do not understand the tone of so many posts on the forum lately. I'm reminded of this:

Ricky Gervais is an unfunny ass that gets WAY too much attention for his dribble.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:12 pm

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:03 pm Man, I do not understand the tone of so many posts on the forum lately. I'm reminded of this:

Ricky Gervais is an unfunny ass that gets WAY too much attention for his dribble.

I think it does fit some posts here.

Funny how literally an hour after I learn the name of Ricky Gervais I see him pop up on TromboneChat of all places.