TromboneChat

I found a few recordings of the Chicago Symphony Brass Ensemble when Frank Crisafulli was still playing on the first chair. This was before his embouchure debacle and the "Fritz Reiner Bolero incident" had him moved to the second chair. The recordings are from 33 rpm discs and they also feature Arnold Jacobs and Bud Herseth in the early/middle career phase (circa 1950s).

It is clear from hearing these recordings that Crisafulli himself had a lot to do with the development of the "Chicago sound/style." He had once confided with me that he had a lot to do with it (which makes sense as he pre-dated the arrival of Kleinhammer, Jacobs, Herseth and Cichowicz). 

Gottfried Reiche, "Sonata Number 15"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-a9lSDPYU4&index=40&list=PL5UHb5y6Rewe2CHuWqWrC44VhLQGXLafn

L. V. Beethoven, "Quartet Opus 18, Number 2"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buIVUGUc1Hk&list=PL5UHb5y6Rewe2CHuWqWrC44VhLQGXLafn&index=35

Leonard Lebow, "Suite for Brass: March, Blues, Reel"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smnAfp4hQKw&list=PL5UHb5y6Rewe2CHuWqWrC44VhLQGXLafn&index=33

On the WFMT recital the quintet recorded in the 60's Mr C is no slouch either. He and Jake sound big as a house in the Bozza Sonatine finale opening.

Quote from: BassBoneFL on Jan 16, 2018, 06:36AMOn the WFMT recital the quintet recorded in the 60's Mr C is no slouch either. He and Jake sound big as a house in the Bozza Sonatine finale opening.

Many people know about and have recordings of the that brass quintet performance. It is certainly my favorite live-concert recording. The concert was on 18 December 1966 to commemorate the restoration of the Auditorium Theatre which had been the home of the CSO before moving to orchestra hall.

Comparing the two sets of recordings, I prefer the 1966 versions. For example, the Hindemith Morgan Musik is much more awesome than the 1950s (already awesome) version. This is in part because Cichowicz is on the second trumpet instead of Schilke. Also, by that point in time (1966) Crisafulli had regained most of his chops. He hold told me it took him "20 years to get it back." Thus, his self-asserted premier performing capabilities begin again in the 1970s which by many accounts begins the glory days of the already great CSO brass section.

I had no idea that Mr. Crisafulli had an embouchure breakdown.

He mentioned that he regained his strength, did he ever discuss how? I'm close with several players who all stopped playing due to Bell's Palsy.

Quote from: paulyg on Jan 21, 2018, 05:12PMI had no idea that Mr. Crisafulli had an embouchure breakdown.

He mentioned that he regained his strength, did he ever discuss how? I'm close with several players who all stopped playing due to Bell's Palsy.

He didn't exactly have an embouchure breakdown. He made a conscious choice to change it. Eventually, I understand that he changed it back. Here's how he explains it in his own words from "An Interview with Frank Crisafulli" October 28, 1976.

CRISAFULLI:
     "Not many people really know what transpired. You know, musicians are strange in the sense that our imaginations are very active and many times we make decisions that are not particularly good. I had no guidance at this time. As a matter of fact, I don't necessarily recommend studying with your father. It is a very difficult thing for a father to teach his son. My father was quite impatient with me. I think, now that I recall that period, that he rather expected that I should be able to do everything because I was his son.
     In any case, I played with a very unorthodox embouchure. The setting was very peculiar and people often mentioned it to me. I was never satisfied with what I did, even though people would say that I had a beautiful sound and it seemed so easy for me. I thought I was just barely making it.
     In my teaching I've come to realize that we often dwell too much on our sensations. Many times we cease listening to ourselves. The first thing you know, all you do is feel this, that, and the other thing and you don't even hear the result of it. In any case, I made a decision that was a very unfortunate one. I thought that if I straightened out my embouchure I would gain what I was seeking."

QUESTION:
     "Were you looking for perfection?"

CRISAFULLI:
     "Perfection, yes. I wanted everything at my finger tips. Remember, this happened after I had been on the first stand for about 15 years. Mind you, I was making it all this time.
     At that time the orchestra worked only 28 weeks during the winter season. We were off from April until the summer season, which didn't start until July and only ran six weeks. We were off until the following October. To me, our breaks seemed like an endless length of time. I thought I could accomplish any kind of change during this period. However, making the change in my embouchure didn't quite work as I had anticipated. But I found out a great many things.
     First of all, my breath control was not what it should have been. I think most of us are a little bit afraid of this anyway. Breath is subtle. Lips are physical. You can feel what you are doing and they bother you from one day to the next.
     With my attempted changes came a short circuit: in the sense of pitch, color and releasing the breath. These things are so closely knit together that you don't know which comes first. I ran into the difficult of breath control more than ever. I was afraid to let the air go because I didn't know what was going to come out of the horn. Oddly enough, I was still playing well in spite of the horrors of the situation.
     When I hear records of that period I can tell that I was producing. That is the thing that bothers me so. I was playing. Yet, anybody could have told me at the time that 'you can't play anything' and I would have believed them. I was struggling and getting nowhere; at least it seemed so to me. But along came Fritz Reiner."

QUESTION:
     "How long had he been conductor?"

CRISAFULLI:
     "I think about one year ... here was my undoing. The first thing one loses, besides the feeling of knowing exactly what is going to happen, is the loss of both ends of the register. In my case the high register disappeared. It was at this point that Mr. Reiner decided to schedule the famous undoing of many trombonists-- Bolero. I often thought that had I gone and spoken to him about it ... who knows? I didn't. I refused to do it. When the time came at rehearsal I made the best attempt I could -- it was terrible. I do admit that. The sum total of it was that I was asked if I would step down to second chair."

QUESTION:
     "You were asked this by Reiner during the rehearsal?

CRISAFULLI:
     "No, no. It was all done, on the side, with the personnel manager."

QUESTION:
     "Did you ever speak to Reiner?

CRISAFULLI:
     "Only on a few rare occasions."

QUESTION:
     "So through Reiner's threats you accepted the second chair?"

CRISAFULLI:
     "Yes, I had the choice (laughter) either--or!" Of course, I had a family and what difference does it make if you play first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or sixth? If you are there and a part of it, that is sufficient.

No mention of the fact that he went to Reinhardt and got straightened out?

Typical.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 22, 2018, 01:09PMNo mention of the fact that he went to Reinhardt and got straightened out?

Typical.

I'd like to get more details on how Reinhardt helped him. I have no information on this (what he was told, how long was the recovery, where/when did he meet with Reinhardt, etc.). My understanding is that he was told to go back to his initial unorthodox setting. From sitting next to him for about 10 years (about 1974 and thereafter), that is what his embouchure looked like to me.

Do you know exactly when he was having problems and when he got back to his old self?  That would answer when, and where would have been in Reinhardt's Philadelphia studio I'm sure.

"My understanding is that he was told to go back to his initial unorthodox setting."

"He was told.... "

Is it unmentionable that it was Reinhardt who told him?

I caught him in a masterclass in 1990, after he had retired. He apologised then for not doing any public playing because he was using his retirement to re-center his embouchre and eliminate the off-center placement he used for 50+ years.

Regardless of when he was under advisement to change, it bugged him enough that he was devoted to getting it centered after the pressures of daily teaching and gigs were done.

I guess after he retired he was willing to risk losing his chops again.

Yup.

From various sources:

1916 born
1934-37 member of the Civic Orchestra of Chicago while in school at Northwestern
1939 Assistant principal CSO (age 24)
1939 2nd trombone CSO
1940 became Principal trombone CSO
1953 Fritz Reiner became the CSO conductor
1954 tried to change his embouchure for no good reason in the middle of a successful career (age 38)
1955 moved to 2nd trombone (age 39)
???? how long was this going on?
???? Sought advice from Reinhardt
1966 had regained most of his chops
1989 retired (age 73)
1990 decided to mess with his chops again, he didn't learn anything the first time.

Well, that's one theory. After having literally thousands of students and gifted professionals pass through his studio between 1939 and 1989, maybe he knew something himself?

52 years on the job at the highest level on this planet, maybe he always knew how to repair himself but -- as he put it himself in 1990, he didn't have the LUXURY of having the time away from the demands of the job in The Chicago Symphony Orchestra, to rebuild himself the way he wanted to do it himself.

He also said, in 1990, that in 52 years on the job in Chicago, he never once, NEVER ONCE, had to sight read anything. Everything was handed out in plenty of time by a librarian for the players to look at. Does that mean that for over 52 years he didn't know how to sight read? Nope, it just means that the gig was so organized that everything was scheduled years in advance.
So, if he took 52 years to fix his own chops to where he wanted them-- it might also mean it took that long to clear his schedule of gigs he couldn't take a chance on having an embouchre that was less than 150% efficient. Note that I didn't say perfect, I said functioning and efficient to cover his parts perfectly.

He also said that every student at Northwestern had a parent or guardian show up at his studio by appointment and ask him confidentially what realistic chance the student had of making it professionally. He told every parent and guardian that the student had absolutely no chance of making it as a player-- because there was no work for them. He had kept his own chair for 50 years. So, that gig never opened in over 50 years, while he churned out thousands of his replacements.
He did assure them that a liberal arts degree from Northwestern would open any door in the universe, and that is where the worth of a playing degree in orchestral trombone was invaluable.
   If you wanted to go to law school or med school then a degree in trombone performance was a great place to begin.

What did FC say about all this? What did he advise his students about their embouchure problems? Did FC acknowledge Reinhardt’s help at all?

I just know from my experience with Mr C, he never really dealt with embouchure at all with me. As far as I know he told people not to mess with it if all as OK. He never really talked much about his own issues re:Reiner etc other than he tried a "normal" set, it took longer than he thought, Bolero didn't go well, he was moved down and he went back to his old set. I never asked about it, he never said much beyond that. He only brought it up because he was having some dental issues at the time and would come right from the dentist to a lesson then to a rehearsal or concert. He'd joke how he'd have to use one of his "other embouchures" tonight. Then demonstrate several settings in a humorous manner. (all sounded great at age 65-ish)

I had the honor and pleasure of hearing Mr C in lessons every week, in concert 3 times a week, and even played next to him in the CSO on a few occasions. His sound was a solid, resonant core that out in the hall sounded as big as a house and was never harsh. He was also a model of relaxed ease in production. No matter how fast, slow, loud, soft, high, low he was playing, he always looked as if he was playing a mf middle "F" long tone. FWIW, I have almost every CSO recording from the Kubelik era through Barenboim. Mr C always sounded great to my ears and if he did have a "chop fail" (which I doubt) I never heard it. Anyone who can hold their own in that section for more than a half century deserves nothing but utmost respect.


 

Thank you, Harold, and thanks especially for mentioning the respect we owe his memory and, by extension, that of his colleagues.  I'm not a regular here anymore, but the few times I've visited recently, I've seen speculation about the difficulties within the section and whatever circumstances led to Mr. Crisafulli's move to second trombone.  I understand that people are curious and by and large mean no harm, but we should keep in mind that there are still a LOT of players around who were close to these gentlemen, and I'm sure I'm not alone in finding so much discussion of intimate details of their professional and personal business somewhat off-putting.   

Since he sounded so good all that long career, this problems must have been very small? Maybe it wasn't any problem at all? Just search for perfection. Not so strange when he worked over 50 years in that legendary brass section. I think they all searched for perfection, anyway who cares when they always sounded so good to us listeners.

I hope I'm not inadvertently stirring up controversy again, but:

I don't think Doug means any disrespect to Crisafulli and his playing, because he obviously had remarkable musicianship going on, having spent a large portion of his life sounding great in the CSO at both live concerts and in the many recordings we have of that era. I listen to the CSO low brass recordings constantly for ideas on how to do it right.

But I understand that Doug is coming from a perspective knowing that there are MANY, BIG players who have gone through Reinhardt's (and Doug's) studios and been able to get their chops back when everything falls apart from long-standing issues that were never addressed, and they refuse to ever speak Reinhardt's name because of the weird stigma that surrounds him and his pedagogy. I can understand the frustration when Doug has been teaching this pedagogy for the majority of his life, and is a living, breathing, playing attest as to why that method works.

I'm not sure why a stigma exists around a pedagogical style that basically is 'know how your unique chops work and take care of yourself'. Maybe someone can educate me. I most certainly would not be able to play anywhere near the level I can now without his pedagogy (this doesn't mean much, but it is important to me and my perspective).

Exactly.

Hi. Could this have been personal. Many years ago Stan Brown was principle trombone with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. He was my first proper teacher. Nicolai Malko took over the orchestra in 1957. He immediately wanted Stan replaced with a Canadian trombone player who was available. Malko could not get the support he needed to make the change. Malko called for Bolero. and he made Stan play it over and over, and just said that he didn't like the way Stan played it. He kept him at it until Stan was in a shambles and tossed the job in. The Canadian player never got the job and Malko became angry because he felt that it was his decision as to which players were fit to play in the Orchestra. On another occasion  the orchestra was rehearsing the Prelude to act 3 of Lohengrin and he singled out the violins and had each desk play there parts separately. Every violinist was under stress and some were in tears. The orchestra said he had a heart of steel

It's a funny thing, there are people in the UK who players can go to for help and that relationship is kept between the parties. We think it is a matter of respect and common courtesy to keep such things confidential.
I can only presume that attitudes have been different in the US and teachers like Reinhardt broadcast who had been to see them.
I think this discussion about deservedly famous players and teachers who are no longer here to clarify the facts, is not going to be of value to anyone.
Lets all tread carefully.

Chris Stearn

Hey guys ... I was surprised to find these recordings of Crisafulli (and Jacobs and Herseth) playing chamber music as member of the Chicago Symphony Brass Ensemble in the 1950s. The YouTube recordings are so readily available that I simply wanted to share them.

Of course Crisafulli sounds as good as ever (beautiful resonant sound with great articulations and awesome intonation/rhythm/musical phrasing).

The odd thing I recall is that in 1976 I played back the master tape of the Ewald quintet recording (from 1966) on my reel-to-reel tape deck in his studio. He commented that he could hear that he was having problems, but honestly, I cannot to this day hear any hint of any problems on that recording. He sounds as good as can be.

.......and the principal trombonist was kicked in the chops by a horse.
...... and the principal trumpet went through a windshield in an auto accident and his mouth was smashed.
.......and the tubist was playing with a damaged lung and using oxygen on recordings.

Just part of the lore.
The real lesson here, folks, is that at the very highest level the players exhibit life-long learning and are still driven enough to strive to be their best when every other mortal human would have quit.

Quote from: Max Croot on Jan 22, 2018, 10:56PMHi. Could this have been personal. Many years ago Stan Brown was principle trombone with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. He was my first proper teacher. Nicolai Malko took over the orchestra in 1957. He immediately wanted Stan replaced with a Canadian trombone player who was available. Malko could not get the support he needed to make the change. Malko called for Bolero. and he made Stan play it over and over, and just said that he didn't like the way Stan played it. He kept him at it until Stan was in a shambles and tossed the job in. The Canadian player never got the job and Malko became angry because he felt that it was his decision as to which players were fit to play in the Orchestra. On another occasion  the orchestra was rehearsing the Prelude to act 3 of Lohengrin and he singled out the violins and had each desk play there parts separately. Every violinist was under stress and some were in tears. The orchestra said he had a heart of steel

I don't think the move to 2nd trombone (initiated by Reiner) was personal. Reiner knew Crisafulli was valuable based on the story Arnold Jacobs told me. He said that while Crisafulli was on the first stand with the CSO (and Kleinhammer on bass ... I don't recall who was on 2nd) and while Reiner was the music director in Pittsburgh, Reiner had attended a CSO concert. Arnold Jacobs was the tuba player in Pittsburgh under Reiner at the time. The next day during rehearsal, Reiner raved on and on about how great the CSO trombone section sounded and that this was the sound he was seeking from the Pittsburgh low brass.

But, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Reiner fired the tubist in Chicago to bring in Jacobs. That I could believe.

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Jan 23, 2018, 03:53AM--snip--
The real lesson here, folks, is that at the very highest level the players exhibit life-long learning and are still driven enough to strive to be their best when every other mortal human would have quit.

This is very inspirational for those of us who still strive to be their best. Thank you for your comment.

Quote from: Max Croot on Jan 22, 2018, 10:56PMHi. Could this have been personal. Many years ago Stan Brown was principle trombone with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. He was my first proper teacher. Nicolai Malko took over the orchestra in 1957. He immediately wanted Stan replaced with a Canadian trombone player who was available. Malko could not get the support he needed to make the change. Malko called for Bolero. and he made Stan play it over and over, and just said that he didn't like the way Stan played it. He kept him at it until Stan was in a shambles and tossed the job in. The Canadian player never got the job and Malko became angry because he felt that it was his decision as to which players were fit to play in the Orchestra. On another occasion  the orchestra was rehearsing the Prelude to act 3 of Lohengrin and he singled out the violins and had each desk play there parts separately. Every violinist was under stress and some were in tears. The orchestra said he had a heart of steel

Most orchestras now have contract protections against bull$%^& shenanigans like this. Your unions at work!

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 23, 2018, 05:24AMMost orchestras now have contract protections against bull$%^& shenanigans like this. Your unions at work!

Back in that era, Reiner was quite busy weeding out players he didn't like. Perhaps he made the orchestra better?

Chris,

Reinhardt did not broadcast who had been to see him at all, in fact he often told me that the professionals who came to him having problems didn't want anyone to know because of the stigma surrounding that situation. 

The world is a different place now, the internet has changed everything.  People used to just retire quietly when their chops stopped working.  Now "focal dystonia" is the big fear and the diagnosis of the day when anybody has problems, and the players who have quit their jobs are well known, as are the ones who solved their problems and came back.

From a pedagogical standpoint there's no longer any point in keeping secrets.  Students used to just do what they were told.  Now everybody questions everything - not always a good approach - there are loads of BS brass methods out there and I know a lot of people think Reinhardt's is one of them.

But the fact is that Reinhardt was the only one who actually recognized that there are different embouchures and variations are completely normal and correct.  I never saw Crisafulli play but his embouchure is consistently referred to as "unorthodox" as if there was something wrong with it.  That attitude is what prompted the whole "debacle" and it was self-inflicted.

I do think that is worthy of discussion.

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Jan 22, 2018, 04:21PM...He apologised then for not doing any public playing because he was using his retirement to re-center his embouchre and eliminate the off-center placement he used for 50+ years...

Yeesh. 

I've never seen a picture of him playing. Was it spectacularly odd-looking or something?

This discussion is coming dangerously close to being about the cruelty that is radiated on many occasions from the podium.  I have a list of them that boggle the mind and are mean-spirited beyond comprehension --- but --- I choose not to relate them and instead have decided to tell a conductor story that will gladden the heart of every musician.
   During my career in the NSO we had a guest conductor whose appearance was anticipated with excitement every time he set foot on the podium.  He was so beloved that he was actually named as principal guest conductor for a number of years.  After one particularly successful concert I ran into him backstage and thanked him for such a wonderful performance.  His response was priceless : "Why do you thank me ? YOU are the one who made the wonderful music !"  Such humility from such a gifted conductor !  His elevation to principal guest conductor was not appreciated by the music director at the time and he tried his best to sabotage a performance at Carnegie Hall at which the music director was the instrumental soloist.  The conductor was able to flawlessly follow the soloist despite huge deviations from the prior rehearsals.  It obviously pissed off the soloist, but it showed off the talents of the conductor in spectacular fashion !  The final piece on that Carnegie Hall concert was the Stravinsky "Rite of Spring" which is still one of my most memorable concerts. Afterwards, I met family members at the stage door and my Father-in-Law [a music lover, but not particularly musically astute] asked me, "Did I just witness something uniquely special ?"   THAT is the result of having an orchestra playing WITH and FOR you as opposed to being flogged into submission by some penny ante podium dictator.  Sometimes you could not guess that the orchestra and the conductor were on the same "team" ---- a unity of common purpose to serve the music, not the cult of personality.  The "bad" conductors are the ones who try to instill doubt in the musician's mind and subject them to their power, very much like the rotten politics we see on display every day in our dysfunctional government.  Divide and conquer --- never to unite and prosper.
 Oh, yes --- the name of the guest conductor --- Raphael Fruhbeck de Burgos [RIP]!  This, [to steal the title from a book of Leonard Bernstein] is "The Joy of Music" !  Cheers and happy music making to all !    Bob
   

Quote from: patrickosmith on Jan 23, 2018, 05:29AMBack in that era, Reiner was quite busy weeding out players he didn't like. Perhaps he made the orchestra better?

Better?  Maybe.  But definitely in his own image.  Toscanini was famous (notorious) for doing the same thing.  They also kept the musicians in a constant state of fear.

Thank you, Chris.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 23, 2018, 08:00AMChris,

Reinhardt did not broadcast who had been to see him at all, in fact he often told me that the professionals who came to him having problems didn't want anyone to know because of the stigma surrounding that situation. 

The world is a different place now, the internet has changed everything.  People used to just retire quietly when their chops stopped working.  Now "focal dystonia" is the big fear and the diagnosis of the day when anybody has problems, and the players who have quit their jobs are well known, as are the ones who solved their problems and came back.

From a pedagogical standpoint there's no longer any point in keeping secrets.  Students used to just do what they were told.  Now everybody questions everything - not always a good approach - there are loads of BS brass methods out there and I know a lot of people think Reinhardt's is one of them.

But the fact is that Reinhardt was the only one who actually recognized that there are different embouchures and variations are completely normal and correct.  I never saw Crisafulli play but his embouchure is consistently referred to as "unorthodox" as if there was something wrong with it.  That attitude is what prompted the whole "debacle" and it was self-inflicted.

I do think that is worthy of discussion.

Well Doug,
I don't think that the internet has changed everything. I think we should respect people's privacy and if there is doubt, assume they would like their privacy respected. The aspect of this forum that picks over the bones of professional players is the area I find least attractive.
You know the level of respect that exists between professionals.... the shared understanding of what it is to exist in the music profession.... even players who hate each other respect what the other does.... in a way that outsiders will never understand.
The need to know should sometimes be tempered.... we have had big trouble in the past with threads that pulled up some very unpleasant history.
I've seen some very 'unorthodox' embouchures produce some of the greatest brass playing ever.... so what do any of us really know ?

Chris Stearn

I agree with all of that. (Except I do think the internet has changed everything)
However, I'm not the one who brought it up by starting this thread.
And my whole point is there's no such thing as "unorthodox."
Different from others?  Of course, we're all different.

Regarding Conductors and principal players, we always have to remember that professional performance is all about standards. Mess up and you are gone... it's what we sign up to. The crime is when people are sacked even when they are doing a great job.... it happens.
My job is not in the spotlight in the CSO manner, but a job is still never secure.... unless you are.
I have had 5 principal trombones and 5music directors over 33 years and have gotten along well with them all.... my secret ? Pure luck.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 23, 2018, 12:43PMI agree with all of that. (Except I do think the internet has changed everything)
However, I'm not the one who brought it up by starting this thread.
And my whole point is there's no such thing as "unorthodox."
Different from others?  Of course, we're all different.

I know you understand, for the very reasons I stated, but I feel I have to say these things to inform the wider forum population, and hopefully foster a professional approach to discourse here.

Chris Stearn

I will try to stay out of the who “got him straightened out” discussion. We really don’t know who helped (or hurt) and to what extent. It is all pure speculation and hearsay so many years after the fact, fueled by the “everybody needing to know everything” ethos that the internet fosters. Several of us on TTF were students of Frank Crisafulli and I venture to guess that he had a similar impact on each of us.

I will speak from years of lessons with him both while in school at NU and off and on for years after (yes, in the same room; yes, seeing his embouchure; yes, hearing him in person; yes, hearing him in the CSO etc.).

First hand experience revealed to me the following:
1. He was never happy with a particular embouchure and was constantly fiddling and rethinking. In later years some dental troubles exacerbated his embouchure fixation. The adjustments he made were all relatively slight.
2. No matter which setting he was using, how much he complained or self-effaced, he sounded pretty much the same: core-filled, resonant, meaty and in tune. His sound projected.
3. The benefit of hindsight shows that his embouchure wasn’t as 'unorthodox' as he would lead one to believe (or himself believed).
4. Whatever he was doing, it worked. It may not have worked to Reiner’s satisfaction on Bolero and in another era, he may have not had to accept the 2nd chair. He "made lemonade" for decades after.
5. The experience scarred him and was a further catalyst for the experimentation to follow. See point #3.
6. While in the CSO, his product never sounded all that different from era to era. He was never 'broken' and never 'fixed' at least to my ear.

He sounded great and taught his students well, as people and musicians. For me that is more important than who helped/harmed him or what his embouchure looked like. Of course, as students, we are biased in favor of our teachers. There are many videos available of the CSO while he was a member. That section was electric.

For further listening, don’t miss the 1967 CSO Trombone Quartet recordings (available on CD), with Friedman, Dodson, Crisafulli, Kleinhammer sitting down and reading quartets and recorded by WFMT to be used as intro and exit music to other programs on the network. Just great, straight ahead, nuts and bolts playing, with no rehearsal. Four legends.

PE

Quote from: Peter Ellefson on Jan 23, 2018, 12:57PM

For further listening, don’t miss the 1967 CSO Trombone Quartet recordings (available on CD), with Friedman, Dodson, Crisafulli, Kleinhammer sitting down and reading quartets and recorded by WFMT to be used as intro and exit music to other programs on the network. Just great, straight ahead, nuts and bolts playing, with no rehearsal. Four legends.



Still one of my favorite trombone recording ever.

He's been dead for 20 years. When does the moratorium end?

I just found this in an article from Windsongpress in the biographies section.

http://www.windsongpress.com/brass%20players/trombone/Crisafulli.pdf

This article says that Crisafulli credits Reinhardt as one of his teachers, which I had not found or seen before, so it seems like it was already public information to some extent.

I'm wondering what was considered 'unorthodox' to the others that watched him play, and he obviously had pressures both by himself and other people to change it.

I think that us who are growing aspiring musicians (speaking for myself here) are interested in not only enjoying the great output of the masters, but also learning HOW they got there, what kinds of struggles and what kinds of things can we learn from their upbringing, culture, and journey to get to be who they are today. It allows us to connect with and understand them on a human level. If we are aspiring to be at that level, not only should we know the level that we are at now and the level we want to be, but also all of the levels and the hard work that comes in between, and the continual improvement even after reaching a goal in their careers. I think it comes out of a respect for the musician, not disrespect.

John Clayton is at my university right now giving masterclasses, lessons, and will be doing a combo concert tonight, and one of my favorite stories from his masterclass this morning is hearing about how he grew up and the path he took to getting to play with all of the bands and greats that he did, and hearing about the schooling, the concepts he learned from others, and his approach to music.

I think I will listen to that CSO Low Brass album before rehearsal today...

Quote from: FlamingRain on Jan 23, 2018, 01:59PMI just found this in an article from Windsongpress in the biographies section.

http://www.windsongpress.com/brass%20players/trombone/Crisafulli.pdf

This article says that Crisafulli credits Reinhardt as one of his teachers, which I had not found or seen before, so it seems like it was already public information to some extent.

I'm wondering what was considered 'unorthodox' to the others that watched him play, and he obviously had pressures both by himself and other people to change it.

I think that us who are growing aspiring musicians (speaking for myself here) are interested in not only enjoying the great output of the masters, but also learning HOW they got there, what kinds of struggles and what kinds of things can we learn from their upbringing, culture, and journey to get to be who they are today. It allows us to connect with and understand them on a human level. If we are aspiring to be at that level, not only should we know the level that we are at now and the level we want to be, but also all of the levels and the hard work that comes in between, and the continual improvement even after reaching a goal in their careers. I think it comes out of a respect for the musician, not disrespect.

John Clayton is at my university right now giving masterclasses, lessons, and will be doing a combo concert tonight, and one of my favorite stories from his masterclass this morning is hearing about how he grew up and the path he took to getting to play with all of the bands and greats that he did, and hearing about the schooling, the concepts he learned from others, and his approach to music.

I think I will listen to that CSO Low Brass album before rehearsal today...

Now, I come from a generation that would never have dreamt for asking our teachers about their private life.... you just didn't do that. Did I learn less from them than this generation does from their teachers ? I doubt it. Music is what I do as a profession. You don't have to know about me if you take a lesson with me... you want to know what I know about music and playing music on the trombone.... that has nothing to do with the social, family me. Spend a week on holiday with me and you will learn nothing about music and trombone playing.
Each generation grows up in a different world and has to make THAT world work for them.
This media society we now inhabit is obsessed with the person and the personality.... don't be fooled.... it's a sideshow, a diversion.
You want to do music.... talk music, play music... and do it in the world you are growing up in.... it's the only one you have... you can't have mine, I wish you could, but it's gone forever.

Chris Stearn

Regardless of Frank's embouchure, orthodox or no, it worked for him.  It probably wouldn't work for me.  If someone needs an odd embouchure, they find that out when they start experimenting for themselves.

What we need to learn from the Crisafulli recordings is his approach to music and the type of sound he generated.  You and I may need completely different embouchure/mouthpiece/horn combinations to duplicate it.  That's part of the challenge of music.

Thanks once again, Chris. 

Quote from: patrickosmith on Jan 23, 2018, 05:29AMBack in that era, Reiner was quite busy weeding out players he didn't like. Perhaps he made the orchestra better?

There's weeding - every music director has the right, no, the responsibility to have difficult conversations with players who are not performing up to the expected standard - and there's humiliating people in front of their friends and colleagues, for which there is no excuse. 

Add to that often the people who have the ability to humiliate a conductor (newspaper reviewers, ect) often are inarticulate buffoons.

If Reiner needs any humiliating, I'd encourage everyone to look to his recording of Dvorak 9.

On balance though, he produced many excellent recordings. It does highlight the predatory mindset of certain conductors when a mistake on a musician's part is grounds for dismissal, when a mistake on their part can pass unnoticed. Reiner certainly seems to have taken advantage of this, and others have too.

It is instructive to learn that even the giants had, for example, embouchure issues to deal with.

Just curious ... did anybody actually listen to (and/or care to comment on) the recordings?

Pretty amazing brass playing. Hearing the Beethoven quartet is unexpected to say the least. It must have been a great scene when these players were all working together, emulating each other we can imagine.

A couple of points:

- John Swallow mentions to Abbie Conant in their video that when he was first in New York he went to Rheinhart to fix his chops. At one level, I'm deeply annoyed that I went through 4 years at college (and decades later) with fixable chop problems and that noone told me about this. I could have gone to see The Man.

- I think a lot of bright kids get to college without coming up against real barriers. Then they get to a much bigger pond and can't cope with finding things difficult. There were stories about some of the faculty who'd had trouble when younger but mostly they just made it look fantastically easy. Perhaps students without the grit should be eased out but, I understand, in my day the 2 highest US higher-ed suicide rates were MIT Maths and the Julliard.

There probably should be some distance between teacher and pupil, but part of the teaching should also be about being a musician and coping with the life.

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 23, 2018, 06:12PMThere's weeding - every music director has the right, no, the responsibility to have difficult conversations with players who are not performing up to the expected standard - and there's humiliating people in front of their friends and colleagues, for which there is no excuse. 

Wasn't there a story about one of the NBC trombone players who wrapped his slide around his stand at the end of his last day before retiring? Or am I just making that up?

Quote from: patrickosmith on Jan 24, 2018, 06:24AMJust curious ... did anybody actually listen to (and/or care to comment on) the recordings?

Pretty amazing brass playing. Hearing the Beethoven quartet is unexpected to say the least. It must have been a great scene when these players were all working together, emulating each other we can imagine.


I listened to them. I enjoyed them, but did not comment due to a lack a creds on that genre. I can honestly say that I also enjoyed the Kleinhammer pieces that queued up to the right. Thanks for the music.  

...Geezer