TromboneChat

This may be a painfully dumb question, so I apologize in advance.

I work quite a bit on the Remington warmup series. When I do the 3,4, and 5 note lips slurs they become increasingly difficult to execute the further out on the slide the exercise goes.

First position? No problem. Seventh position? Splatter city. Even when I flop the exercise and start the progression in 7th position.

If I understand the cause of the problem it might help me correct it. Is it something to do with more wind required for expanded tubing? It seems my lip doesn't work as well out there as it does closer to home?

Is this the "flexibility" spoken of that needs to be developed? Does "flexibility" encompass extension out on the slide in addition to up and down on notes?

Thanks in advance, oh gurus of trombonedom.

The lower slide position slurs are more difficult for me as well.

I'll practice the lower ones more slowly and try to build up speed. It helps me to tongue the notes first, before slurring them. Accuracy should always trump speed in my practice sessions.

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 16, 2018, 07:51AMI'll practice the lower ones more slowly and try to build up speed. It helps me to tongue the notes first, before slurring them. Accuracy should always trump speed in my practice sessions.


Exactly what I spent an hour doing last night. Tonguing the notes first was even difficult. It was an hour of dispiriting muddling, trying to feel the tongue, lip, embouchure, etc., to identify what is needed to correct my problem. Could transitioning out of puckering in the lower register be a factor?

I'm just wondering what causes this problem.

For me it definitely helped to make sure im buzzing the exact pitch right away as opposed to relying on the horn to create the partials.

Whenever an exercise is sloppy like that I play it just on the mouthpiece and really listen for an immediate transition between notes. Sometimes i sing it too.

The mistake I made for a long time is pulling the pitch toward the new note gradually at the end of the note. Pushing against the wall between slots and waiting for the tone to jump over so to speak.

Buzzing on the mouthpiece reveals that flaw at once if it exists and helps create a habit of buzzing on pitch at all times. At least it does for me.

Not exactly specific to the lower positions put if a weakness like that exists it's more likely to surface on the less stable positions.

Quote from: MikeyBonez on Jan 16, 2018, 07:43AMThis may be a painfully dumb question, so I apologize in advance.

I work quite a bit on the Remington warmup series. When I do the 3,4, and 5 note lips slurs they become increasingly difficult to execute the further out on the slide the exercise goes.

First position? No problem. Seventh position? Splatter city. Even when I flop the exercise and start the progression in 7th position.

If I understand the cause of the problem it might help me correct it. Is it something to do with more wind required for expanded tubing? It seems my lip doesn't work as well out there as it does closer to home?

Is this the "flexibility" spoken of that needs to be developed? Does "flexibility" encompass extension out on the slide in addition to up and down on notes?

Thanks in advance, oh gurus of trombonedom.

I think most at least sometime in their career feel the same. More tubing makes a difference. Therefore I practice the slurs where they are most difficult on the outer positions. I also continue on the valve v1, v2, v3, v4, v5. Do that if you have one. I usually stop there, but if you have two you could do them on vv1, vv2, vv3 and vv4 too. I think that's even tougher a challange.

/Tom

Quote from: Saubohne on Jan 16, 2018, 08:10AMFor me it definitely helped to make sure im buzzing the exact pitch right away as opposed to relying on the horn to create the partials.

Whenever an exercise is sloppy like that I play it just on the mouthpiece and really listen for an immediate transition between notes. Sometimes i sing it too.

The mistake I made for a long time is pulling the pitch toward the new note gradually at the end of the note. Pushing against the wall between slots and waiting for the tone to jump over so to speak.

Buzzing on the mouthpiece reveals that flaw at once if it exists and helps create a habit of buzzing on pitch at all times. At least it does for me.

 

Quote from: watermailonman on Jan 16, 2018, 08:11AMI think most at least sometime in their career feel the same. More tubing makes a difference. Therefore I practice the slurs where they are most difficult on the outer positions. I also continue on the valve v1, v2, v3, v4, v5. Do that if you have one. I usually stop there, but if you have two you could do them on vv1, vv2, vv3 and vv4 too. I think that's even tougher a challange.

/Tom

 


Seems like a larger mpc on a larger horn is more difficult for me in that regard as well. But that doesn't mean it can't be overcome! And the better I get with a larger mpc & larger horn, the improvement is more dramatic when I switch to a smaller mpc on a smaller horn. And I don't mean to imply that is a standard. It might simply be my own idiosyncrasy. YMMV and I hope it does!

Keep dogging it, MikeyBonez!

...Geezer

Quote from: MikeyBonez on Jan 16, 2018, 07:43AMThis may be a painfully dumb question, so I apologize in advance.

I work quite a bit on the Remington warmup series. When I do the 3,4, and 5 note lips slurs they become increasingly difficult to execute the further out on the slide the exercise goes.

First position? No problem. Seventh position? Splatter city. Even when I flop the exercise and start the progression in 7th position.


I concur with your observation that it is harder to do cleanly and elegantly out in 7th than it is in first. I feel like I have to be much more careful about where I am aiming to hit the right notes.

(We are talking about the thing where you keep the slide in one position and lip slur up and down, right?)

I attribute it to the much longer column of air that needs to be rapidly forced to new vibration modes. The vibration pretty much has to stop and restart and yet you have only the same lip muscle to apply to it as before. The air column wants to keep doing what it is doing (that's 90% of the reason wind instruments even work)!

From a physics standpoint it makes sense that it is harder with the longer air column.

All that said, when I once casually noted to my trombone teacher that it seemed harder out in 7th he appeared to be totally baffled by my comment. Harder? What? Huh? Why, I've never had trouble with it!

Of course he picked his horn up and demonstrated how unfounded my observation was. For him. Sheesh, sorry I brought it up!

(Be prepared for manly men to check in here to tell you they have no trouble with it.)

My amateur pedagogue suggestion is to initially practice smaller chunks out in 7th. Practice alternating between just pairs of notes out in 7th at different levels. Get those going. Careful and clean.

(I never actually had a Remington book.  These exercises were always just transmitted to me aurally by teachers.  Maybe the small chunks is part of the plan already?)

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 16, 2018, 08:21AMI concur with your observation that it is harder to do cleanly and elegantly out in 7th than it is in first. I feel like I have to be much more careful about where I am aiming to hit the right notes.

(We are talking about the thing where you keep the slide in one position and lip slur up and down, right?)

I attribute it to the much longer column of air that needs to be rapidly forced to new vibration modes. The vibration pretty much has to stop and restart and yet you have only the same lip muscle to apply to it as before. The air column wants to keep doing what it is doing (that's 90% of the reason wind instruments even work)!

From a physics standpoint it makes sense that it is harder with the longer air column.

All that said, when I once casually noted to my trombone teacher that it seemed harder out in 7th he appeared to be totally baffled by my comment. Harder? What? Huh? Why, I've never had trouble with it!

Of course he picked his horn up and demonstrated how unfounded my observation was. For him. Sheesh, sorry I brought it up!

  Yes, that's why I said "sometime in their carrer". Maybe way back at a time they do not remember. This is one of those things that is not at all that difficult when you CAN actually do it. It is only difficult up to that point..

Like other things on the horn 

/Tom

Quote from: watermailonman on Jan 16, 2018, 08:30AM Yes, that's why I said "sometime in their carrer". Maybe way back at a time they do not remember. This is one of those things that is not at all that difficult when you CAN actually do it. It is only difficult up to that point..

Like other things on the horn 

/Tom

That thought has occurred to me as well. It could be, with some players who have been at it a loooong time, that they worked all those things out so long ago in grade school, they don't even remember those things being problems in the first place. So when a student comes across a thing like that, the instructor is, "Whaaaaaat?" And yet an instructor who has been at it for a long time has also dealt with every quirk a student can throw at them many times over. So that might have been his way of telling you not to make it a big deal; just practice your way through it.

I concluded quite a while back that anything I have a problem with is not unique; in fact - just the opposite - it's a common problem.

...Geezer

The resistance changes as the slide is extended,and the horn becomes less stable as the bore discrepancy between the outer and inner slide tubes becomes more and more significant.

There will be significantly more resistance with the slide in 7th position, and you'll need a lot more air to move the air that's already in the horn.

Use more air.

Also, don't discount the fact that you are probably much more familiar with the intonation in and around the bell, and not so familiar with it out on the stockings -- wobbly intonation makes it much more difficult to play and taxes your endurance as you try to lip pitches true. The slide needs to be in the right spot.

The horns overtone series or partials lines up a little bit different in 7th compare to 1st position. Its wise to make them slow, listen the tuning and then make small adjustments with the slide. All horns are a little different but with practice you know it and you know how the partials works in all positions.

Leif

Or, it could be completely mechanical.

As you go out in position, your instrument becomes more nose heavy.  That can cause your slide angle to droop.

As you reach farther with your right arm, you may be forced to (or you may just habitually do it) angle your trombone to the right.

Result:  your playing position has changed from higher and left to lower and right.

Do you think that might affect your chops? 

Also, as your slide extends, you have to do one of two things, or both:  fight it with increased tension in the left hand, or add support from the right hand.  Either is bad, because your left hand is your chops motion control. 

I mostly do those exercises just in positions 1 - 4, unless I'm using the trigger.  And then I really notice the extra leverage of the extended slide. 

Make a New Year's resolution to consciously play a significant amount of your middle range in outer positions during practice time. Next year the outer positions will be as easy to play as inner positions.

Quote from: pizzaman on Jan 16, 2018, 10:58PMMake a New Year's resolution to consciously play a significant amount of your middle range in outer positions during practice time. Next year the outer positions will be as easy to play as inner positions.

That will be true if the root cause of the problem is just lack of work in the outer positions.

If the actual cause is the mechanical angle, then it very well may get worse.

Quote from: timothy42b on Jan 17, 2018, 05:47AMThat will be true if the root cause of the problem is just lack of work in the outer positions.

If the actual cause is the mechanical angle, then it very well may get worse.


It was a good consideration, but I found it to be the same on two horns with me. And I was checking this pretty carefully. I appreciate it, but that doesn't seem to be my problem.

BTW: Working a solid hour in 7th position is a real lip burner outer. Could barely squeak out a sound from the horn the next day. 

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jan 16, 2018, 09:34AMThe resistance changes as the slide is extended,and the horn becomes less stable as the bore discrepancy between the outer and inner slide tubes becomes more and more significant.

I'm just glad it turned out to not be such a stoopid question.

I understand the problem a bit better now, so it's will take some work to match my tone understanding and execution with the increased air needed further down the slide.

Like I said, doing a significantly greater amount of work down there takes its toll on the lip.

Quote from: MikeyBonez on Jan 17, 2018, 07:21AM

Like I said, doing a significantly greater amount of work down there takes its toll on the lip.

Then I think you're missing something.

Why would it? 

It doesn't for me, if I'm in the right position for the note. 

What takes a lot of work for me is to lip positions into tune when the slide is not right, or to work on falset positions where the horn doesn't give you enough help and the chops have to make up for it.  Or, to have the wrong chops angle and be forcing the tone instead of letting it ring. 

If your long positions are significantly more work, I think that may be diagnostic for something you're doing wrong. 

Quote from: MikeyBonez on Jan 17, 2018, 07:15AMIt was a good consideration, but I found it to be the same on two horns with me. And I was checking this pretty carefully. I appreciate it, but that doesn't seem to be my problem.

BTW: Working a solid hour in 7th position is a real lip burner outer. Could barely squeak out a sound from the horn the next day. 

I don't think anyone advocates you blowing your brains out. When you get tired, stop. Playing when overly-tired can damage your chops and re-enforce bad habits.

...Geezer

This likely won't be helpful for the Remington outer position slurs, but more to corroborate what was said about horn heaviness and weighting throwing you off.

I've been playing in front of a mirror lately and have noticed a large change in my horn-face positioning when going between notes out in 5-7 position and 1-3rd. This usually corresponds with bad transitions between the notes depending on the slide position gap (i.e. little to no issues going 5-3, but lots 6/7-1), causing me to miss notes/attacks/etc.

Aside from working through it and ensuring the mouth/horn/angle doesn't change much with slide position changes, I don't have a great idea for how to solve it; it was pretty evident what was going on when I played in the mirror though, as I couldn't figure out for the life of me why I was flubbing C-Bbs so often.

I don't know the physics behind it but yes the more tubing the farther out the slide the harder it is to lip slur or to do most anything technical quickly. Work on slurring in the longer positions slowly ensuring good tone gradually getting faster as you can play them cleanly and in tune.  You will require more air to move the sound through the extra tubing.  What you're experiencing is normal, and a characteristic of the instrument,  I think if any of us sat down with a metronome and tried to play lip slurs cleanly in first position, and then in 6th or 7th we would find we can plan then cleanly faster in First than in the farther positions, just as I can do them much quicker on Trombone, than I can on Tuba.  Don't worry about how fast you can play them, concentrate on playing them cleanly, and gradually building up speed as you can. You don't have to become a speed demon in the farthest positions overnight, it's a marathon not a sprint, slow and steady practice with gradual improvement over time will get you there, don't wear yourself out trying to make it happen in a day, or a week, or even a month.
 

I just did a few octave lip slurs from middle F (in the staff)  up one octave then up another.

Then I repeated it in 6th.  There is no difference.  I didn't try continuing for an hour, but I'm pretty sure I'd be tired after an hour of lip slurs in any position.

Then I tried middle Bb and up the chord - Bb, D, F, Bb, D, F.  In first.  Then the same pattern in 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.  I can't tell any difference.

Then I tried something else.  I played middle F in 6th, looking in the mirror, working a bit until I had the best response.  Then I let my slide angle droop about an inch down and right, like might happen reaching for long positions and not attending to it.  The tone suffered and I had to work much harder.  I repeated the experiment keeping the angle steady, and moving the slide in and out an inch or two but not letting the pitch change.  Same thing, response suffers and I have to work harder.

I just did a few octave lip slurs from middle F (in the staff)  up one octave then up another.

Then I repeated it in 6th.  There is no difference.  I didn't try continuing for an hour, but I'm pretty sure I'd be tired after an hour of lip slurs in any position.

Then I tried middle Bb and up the chord - Bb, D, F, Bb, D, F.  In first.  Then the same pattern in 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.  I can't tell any difference.

Then I tried something else.  I played middle F in 6th, looking in the mirror, working a bit until I had the best response.  Then I let my slide angle droop about an inch down and right, like might happen reaching for long positions and not attending to it.  The tone suffered and I had to work much harder.  I repeated the experiment keeping the angle steady, and moving the slide in and out an inch or two but not letting the pitch change.  Same thing, response suffers and I have to work harder.