TromboneChat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln_ksnzscT8

I present this newly-posted video of Frank as evidence. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klg3SoMvm5A

I didn't vote.  I'd check a box that says he was one of a kind.  There aren't any other trombonists I'd compare him with.  His approach was entirely different.

Quote from: DaveAshley on Sep 19, 2007, 07:43PMI present this newly-posted video of Frank as evidence. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klg3SoMvm5A
That was excellent, but it wasn't "Wave".  (The title said it was "Wave".  It was Corcovado aka Quiet Nights of Quiet Stars.)

That breakdown chorus was amazing, how they walked the changes right throughout and the whole ensemble came out the other end right on time.  Really brilliant.

It takes some real guts to trade choruses with Rosolino.

Frank was Frank and nobody else will ever be Frank.They mave have been influenced by him, that's it....
I think

So if 8 of you think that somebody is out there playing the trombone as well as Frank did, then tell us who it is.

Quote from: SensitiveJohn on Oct 25, 2007, 09:42AMSo if 8 of you think that somebody is out there playing the trombone as well as Frank did, then tell us who it is.

Give me a break.

I got 8 right HERE!!!

Jack Teagarden

Lawrence Brown

Trummy Young

Tommy Dorsey

J. J. Johnson

Curtis Fuller

Urbie Green

Jimmy Knepper

And that's just scratching the SURFACE!!!

C'mon, man.

Rosolino was a great player.

But there have been...and are...SO many more.

And y'know what?

Many of them them cut him to SHREDS in terms of not using trombone licks...especially those damned turns...to mess up the contours of their melodic statements. That turn thing was like a tic of some kind.

You want to talk "technique"?

I played with three fairly young players this week...Vincent Gardner, Chris Crenshaw and Andre Hayward...who can play things on the horn that Rosolino never DREAMED of.

Bet on it.

This is not to take anything away from Frank. Not really. We all have our weaknesses. But to put ANYBODY up as "the greatest ever"? Ridiculous on the face of it.

Really.

S.

S.

There is simply no "one" best at anything. Be it pitching baseballs or playing trombone.

At some point in time you're splitting hairs over the differences which in my mind is a waste of time.

But no one stands far and above everyone else generically in a skill that encompasses any sort of complexity.

An artist may be better than many others in certain areas but he will be deficient in some other skill that another will exceed him in.

A perfect artist would require a perfect person under the hood, ain't seen many around myself.......

No one played the way Frank did better than Frank.  Lots of people play way out on the edge of possibility better than anyone else who plays like them.  I think this is called personality.  Lots of personalities, lots of best players.  Those of us who play like others, well, we're not the best, and there are lots more of us than them!

Quote from: sabutin on Oct 26, 2007, 07:43AMGive me a break.

I got 8 right HERE!!!

Jack Teagarden

Lawrence Brown

Trummy Young

Tommy Dorsey

J. J. Johnson

Curtis Fuller

Urbie Green

Jimmy Knepper




Ah, but can these guys incorporate yodeling into their scat singing? Well?

Quote That turn thing was like a tic of some kind.
That's an interesting take on it. Could it be that that "tic" was related to the same personality disorder that ended his life?

Quote from: BoneCall on Oct 31, 2007, 05:11AMThat's an interesting take on it. Could it be that that "tic" was related to the same personality disorder that ended his life?

Who knows?

It always made me kinda nervous to hear it, that's for sure. Really. The reason that I so prefer the styles of people like Teagarden, Dorsey, Trummy Young, Urbie, J.J. and Jimmy Knepper to those of say Rosolino and Fontana is because of the relatively uninterrupted elegance and cleanliness of the former's lines. Even when they DID play embellishments, it was somehow integral to the melody and unexpected rather than a repeated interjection like someone saying "Y'know what I mean?" 20 times a sentence.

This is a pet peeve of mine with so many really accomplished trombonists. Like they feel somehow inferior and have to put all kinds of store bought window dressing and bows and ribbons on their melody. Give me Miles Davis or Perry Como any day. Just sing the damned thing.

When I hear that hiccup thing, I just turn off. Always have. I do not care HOW difficult it is. It's still a hiccup.

Later...

S.

Rosolino had a rare ability to break a groove down on trombone
part of that had to do with his fluidity, energy & solid time
The other part of it was that he used the trombone so dynamically
the horn becomes more of a percussion instrument this way.

He'd play quietly and pick funky, effective spots to open up in the top register
And he used those embellishments in the same way a drummer might stroke the snare, or the way a pianist might kick with the left hand.

I find it interesting when guys can tease this kind of a pseudo-polyphonic concept out of the instrument, using rhythm and combinations of sounds.

Doggone it, the second clip was taken down before I could view it.

Rosolino definitely had his mannerisms, but he was getting the sound out of the horn that he wanted. The same staccato triplet that he plays all the time is present in his singing, too, so it's not just some physical trombone thing.

As Josh said, it adds a funky rhythmic element that's almost like drumming or tap dancing. A lot of Hammond B-3 players use similar rhythmic effects. I could see why some people would like it and others find it distracting.

Teagarden had his 'trombonisms', too, but I still love his playing. It's probably just the basic tendency to discover something that you like a lot and play it a little too much.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Kp4_lmho0PI&rel=1

I love how he creeps under pitch sometimes and teases the center, like dexter...
then there's the balance- he offers a million of diversions, for sure- but then he picks a spot, and the notes just hang and the tune opens up.

None of which would be to discount what Sam's said about understatement and elegance, which was well-put.
but it's rare for a musician to be able to go both ways (which is why I love ben webster..)

I'm interested in the choices musicians make; to me, it seems that Rosolino was really able to "create his own shot," as they say in the hoops world.

As I've discussed on these boards before (and taken a lot of flack doing it) in my opinion Rosolino's style, while technically very advanced, was one that wore out the listener very quickly. It strikes me as rather manic in a way the Bird's style was not, like someone who is always talking too fast and too long in a nonstop patter that quickly becomes irritating. Both Rosolino and JJ were in their prime about the same time and I infinitely prefer the latter as a trombonist whose work will stand the test of time.

This point of a tic in Rosolino's playing as a symptom of his eventual complete derangement is an interesting one and makes his music even more unlistenable for me. Of course in light of the way he ended it all its my opinion that it would have been far better if Rosolino's two kids would have survived and his music died.

Let's not get into another discussion about that. Please keep this a music topic.

Just in my own humble opinion, I find his playing, at least on that clip, to be completely lacking in "soul" or "feeling", and also monumentally tedious. What IS the point of playing like that?

Mr. Rosolino's unfortunate demise seems to be a topic non grata around here, so I'll leave that alone.

I don't think mannerism is a deal-killer, whether you're talking about Willie Nelson or Lawrence Brown. There's a fair analogy in Aaron Neville's vocal style. For some people it's sublime and captivating; for others, it's like listening to someone sing while riding a bicycle along the railroad tracks. I can hear it both ways, but I like it.

Frank's playing has a sly, deadpan, hipster-ish quality that's a lot of fun, and when he's not doing his scat-a-tonic rhythms there's some melancholy and emotional depth. I admire people who can project their personality through an instrument.

Quote from: RedHotMama on Nov 01, 2007, 03:43AMLet's not get into another discussion about that. Please keep this a music topic.

The problem with this is that if you censor discussion after someone has made a controversial point, that point winds up hanging in the air unquestioned. I'm sorry, but that bothers me.

Apart from a general discussion of Rosolino's demise, it is possible to discuss the question of whether reflections of the worst of a person's psyche can be seen in their best times, and I'm open to another thread on this if Bonecall is up for it. Quite frankly, I hope not because I think the entire topic is fraught with misguided thinking. I've seen truly silly things written in this vein, the worst of which was an analysis of Emily Dickinson's poetry from the perspective of a handwriting analyst who felt that her unclosed "o"s were a symptom of the kidney disease that would eventually take her life. I certainly wouldn't want people to think that my playing outside the changes is a symptom of my depression. When I'm depressed, I don't play well. When I'm playing my best, I'm not depressed. The two don't coincide.

When you start looking for symptoms of a person's personal life in the technical aspects of their playing, you open yourself up to a world of overgeneralization and speculation. Do you hear "Blackness" in Jimi Hendrix's guitar solos? Do the later offerings of the Beatles still stink of Liverpool? Of course if you go looking for it, you'll think you have found it. That doesn't mean it's there.

Oh, and let me add this: Damn you, Sabutin! I had never even thought about those turns, and now I hear them in every Rosolino solo and I agree with you--they're quite "trombonish" and they certainly don't add to the musical statement of the solo. I would add, though, that turns and any other way of manipulating partials (like playing against the grain) are one of the best ways to get fast articulations out of a trombone, and Rosolino seems to have been one of the pioneers of this technique. You'd know better than I. I'm wondering if the turns were "trombonish" before Rosolino made them so. There will come a time when multiphonics are seen as a low brass cliche, but at least for right now, they seem to stretch the horizons of the instrument. Only time will tell.

Quote from: josh roseman on Oct 31, 2007, 01:19PM
---snip---

I'm interested in the choices musicians make; to me, it seems that Rosolino was really able to "create his own shot," as they say in the hoops world.

Really, Josh...we do not HAVE any choices. We are who we are. Sperm meets egg; genes do their work et...voilá!!!

Rosolino.

Josh.

Sam.

And everybody else.

It is true that Frank was a total original. He had no choice in the matter. But "originality" is not necessarily a recommendation. It is of course necessary to be "original" to be a great artist, but originality in and of itself does not MAKE an artist great.

More is needed.

Frank? He was missing something important. Certainly not sheer musical talent. The OTHER thing. Whatever the hell that is. Like the judge said about pornography."I cannot define it,...but I know it when I see it."

Yup.

No blame, no foul. Just the facts of the matter in my view.

Do not try this at home.

Results may vary.

Later...

S.

Quote from: RedHotMama on Nov 01, 2007, 03:46AMJust in my own humble opinion, I find his playing, at least on that clip, to be completely lacking in "soul" or "feeling", and also monumentally tedious. What IS the point of playing like that?

I appreciate the extreme level of technical proficiency and grasp of harmony he had, and enjoy listening to his solos... watching him play in the above clip struck me as odd, and I hadn't really thought about why until you said this, Mama- his eyes look blank. I can't tell if he's extremely focused, or extremely bored. I often close my eyes when I solo, so I can focus on my own 'inner soundtrack', if you will, and that may be what he's doing, just with his eyes open.

Quote from: Euphanasia on Nov 01, 2007, 06:52AM---snip---

Oh, and let me add this: Damn you, Sabutin! I had never even thought about those turns, and now I hear them in every Rosolino solo---snip---
Sorry...

They have bothered me since I was 15.

Really.

Quoteand I agree with you--they're quite "trombonish" and they certainly don't add to the musical statement of the solo. I would add, though, that turns and any other way of manipulating partials (like playing against the grain) are one of the best ways to get fast articulations out of a trombone, and Rosolino seems to have been one of the pioneers of this technique. You'd know better than I. I'm wondering if the turns were "trombonish" before Rosolino made them so.
Bill Harris

Jimmy Harrison

Dicky Wells

Jack Jenney

Lawrence Brown

Middle-era Trummy Young

Lots of others.

They all used them.

Rosolino just took it to a whole 'nother level.

QuoteThere will come a time when multiphonics are seen as a low brass cliche, but at least for right now, they seem to stretch the horizons of the instrument. Only time will tell.

Actually...I doubt that they will EVER become truly popular on trombone.

Too ugly.

Too limiting, too.

Now on tuba...!!!

THERE'S where they actually sound good.

S.

"Here's that Rainy Day"
Bobby Knights Great American Trombone Company.

NUFF SAID........

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Nov 01, 2007, 11:28AM"Here's that Rainy Day"
Bobby Knights Great American Trombone Company.

NUFF SAID........

I'm not sure that's nuff said, because I, for one, don't know what you're talking about.

However, that blank face of Rosolino really made me feel chilly. That was not a man enjoying what he was playing. IMO.

I'm not sure about the blank stare thing. He sounds like he's enjoying himself. I know a lot of people who sort of space out when they improvise, including myself. A lot of guitarists or piano players inadvertently stare, or sing along, or make faces while they play.

He had the blank stare while he was singing, too. Maybe it's just his 'cool' persona.

QuoteI admire people who can project their personality through an instrument.
Me too. But unfortunately in Mr Rosolino's case IMHO the personality projected was rather one dimensional and a bit manic.

Not that he wasn't one hell of a trombone player.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions of course!!!

However it is MY opinion that anyone not finding musicality, soul, happiness, joy, sadness, music and chops in Franks playing have either........
 a) Not heard much or......
 b) Are "no-listening MF's."

I do hear the soul in Frank's playing. On a pop song done by Quincy Jones, Everything Must Change, Frank plays a short but one of the most soulful trombone solos that I have ever heard!

I also see no need for us to prohibit a discussion of the circumstances of Frank's death....just one black man man's opinion and that still ain't worth a **** in today's world!

No way of knowing, but, the so called blank face is probably concentration. Everyone is different when it comes to that sort of thing. Eyes closed, not closed, who gives a rat's puh-too-tee.

Opinions yes, but lacking in soul or feeling?  Wow! What's the point in playing like that? Wow again. Howse 'bout the fact that he swings his ever lovin' bee-hind off for starters.

My opinion only, but if you aint moved by Frank's playing then perhaps you're dead, aint listenin', stubborn, square, or perhaps do not have enough of a musical mind/heart to grasp it.

Yes, there are many trombone players on the scene today that have taken quantum leaps with their "****", but very few if any of 'em are SWINGIN"! And in my book if it aint swingin' it aint happenin'!

I could easily be saying the above about any number of great players from the past, btw.

Zemry, I'm a bit confused by your last statement. Cuz your opinion matters to me.

Quote from: The Sheriff on Nov 01, 2007, 03:03PMZemry, I'm a bit confused by your last statement. Cuz your opinion matters to me.

Just a bad day and lettin it out! I'm okay now!

If we're gonna start judging guys by how they look while they're playing (on a television set, no less)it's gonna be a looong conversation.
Rosolino's playing, "look", feel, choice of notes all convey a sense of controlled mastery and a huge store of humor and energy, IMO.   
He's capable of making me crack up and I generally feel better after listening to him.
he swings pretty hard, in my book..

Does his playing convey his dark side?  Absolutely, and why not?
It's art, it's supposed to convey your polar extremes, we all have them. 
Honest Jazz is deep music.   For me, real playing is all about dealing with the Shadows- nether zones and ideals. 
We could talk about Billie Holiday's dark side, Miles's, Coltrane's, Beethoven's. 
I know I'm not in a position to judge- I have no idea what choices might unfold in someone else's day-to-day.  people are brutal.  I'm just glad there are a few areas in life where you can express what's really happening.

Amen to that, Josh.

Quote from: josh roseman on Nov 01, 2007, 04:16PMIf we're gonna start judging guys by how they look while they're playing (on a television set, no less)it's gonna be a looong conversation.
Rosolino's playing, "look", feel, choice of notes all convey a sense of controlled mastery and a huge store of humor and energy, IMO. 

Yes, indeed. I hope how we look when playing doesn't become a standard. 
We aren't opera singers. I've seen all kinds of looks out of 'bonists, but can't relate them to what comes out of the horn.

Frank Rosolino sounded like Frank Rosolino. He's instantly recognizable, and that's why he lives now with Bird and Trane and Ben and all the other angelheaded hipsters for us.

We want to sound like ourselves, don't we? Otherwise, what's the point, really?

Ros did that, and that's what I hear when I listen to him.

It's not the notes he played; it's the music he made.

He gave me the shortest lesson I ever had, a long time ago, obviously. All he really said was this:

"You already know how to play; just play!"

Just play.

A lot of what Billie Holiday and Louis Armstrong did could be viewed as mannerisms and licks, and probably rightly so. What the hell, same with Art Tatum and Jimmy Smith and Jimi Hendrix. For all I know, they might have also had a blank stare part of the time.

We're on the verge of consigning trombonists to a little corner where playing joyfully doesn't merit any respect.

I didn't mean to start a side-issue about looks! One of the best trumpet players I know plays with his eyes partially closed and turned up, so that all you can see are the whites. Creepy, but it doesn't stop me enjoying the music he produces.

I've listened to Rosolino with my eyes closed, but, despite being able to appreciate his mastery of the instrument, as Sam said there seems to be something lacking. I called it "soul and feeling", but maybe I was incorrect in my phraseology. What he produces just doesn't float my particular boat. Sorry.

QuoteI also see no need for us to prohibit a discussion of the circumstances of Frank's death
Indeed.

The sum total of an artists work is absolutely influenced by how he lived his life. 

You can't separate the man from his music.

They're one and the same.

Quote from: BoneCall on Nov 02, 2007, 04:34AM
The sum total of an artists work is absolutely influenced by how he lived his life. 


Yes. Not how he ended his life, but how he lived his life. I don't hear airplane crashes in Lynyrd Skynyrd, I don't read suicide in Hemingway, and I don't hear evidence of Rosolino's demise in his music. Art is not a person's inner demons vomited up for our consumption. For many artists, the art produced is a negation of those personal demons rather than an indulgence of them. What I hear in Rosolino's music is phenomenal control and precision. It's anything but out of control.

If your theory connecting the sound of a person's improvisation with their mental state is correct, then we should start a program of "improvisation profiling" wherein we decide whether a person's solos show them to be a danger to society. John Popper should be put away for the rest of his life. He collects guns, and he produces some of the most manic-sounding harmonica solos I've ever heard. Isn't it a foregone conclusion that he's going to kill somebody?

Do you really think you can listen to any living artist's solos and decide what's wrong with their brains based on their musical statements? I'm sorry, but that sounds like a bunch of crap to me.

Re. the blank look. I rather like that - to me it says that all his mental energy is going into his music and not being wasted on facial animation. I think it may also be a side-effect of his technical mastery - he doesn't have to struggle to get the instrument to do what he wants it to do. Wish I was like that. I probably have a look of sheer terror when I'm improvising. I dunno. I can see why the turns 'n stuff may be not to everyone's taste but I do find him a fascinating artist.

I know a young cornet player who has a similar look when she plays - she only moves the first 3 fingers of her right hand and I really admire that spare, economical, relaxed style. And what a fabulous sound she makes. I much prefer that to the archetypal violin soloists who look like they're experiencing physical pain.

- Stephen.

WOW!!! Talk about some crazy s***.you folks have really gone off the deep end with this one.For the record I am a HUGE Rosolino fan,and I voted yes there are trombone players out there who play as well or better.I probably have more recordings of him than most.For someone,anyone to insinuate that Frank played without emotion is so much more than absurd that I won't even begin to address it.Sometimes I think we get to caught up in the who's the best at this ,that,or the other thing instead of focusing in on,embracing the differences in all each and every one of us' performing.
Rosolino was a truly gifted trombonist/musician who's personalityDID come through in his playing.Manic-yes,emotional-yes,soulful-yes,he was all of thoses things and more.read what you cna find on him and you will discover a person who was at times: a cut-up,melancholy,incredibly quick-witted,very loving in his own way,and many other things.People talk about soul-less playing.How about soul-less people who have nothing better to do than talk s** about someone who whether or not desrved can no longer defend themselves.My Longwinded .02 worth.
VHY
Bob

As I said, I enjoy his playing, and have listened to him for years- It just stuck me as odd to watch him for the first time that his face (except for his chops- there's a lesson!) doesn't move at all, his eyes blink occasionally, and his expression doesn't change until he's done, then he smiles. I'm sure he was just completely focused on what was going on around him, and channeling the energy of the other musicians into his own creative process. I usually close my eyes when I do that, he didn't, no big deal. I've had people remark that I sometimes sleep with my eyes open, and it can be a bit unnerving, so that made me think that Mama had picked up on that aspect without maybe realizing that's what it was.

QuoteIf we're gonna start judging guys by how they look while they're playing (on a television set, no less)it's gonna be a looong conversation.
The rules of the game have changed in an era where everything unearthed at almost simultaneous speed about an artist unavoidably colors his or her output. Brittney Spears might have been able to avoid the recent unpleasant notoriety before the internet but now her breakdown and her fight to regain custody of her kids absolutely affects the way her music is perceived in almost real time, for better or worse.

The whole idea of artistic output is one of communication, a striving of the artist to meld a far as possible his talent/view of the world with his audience and the audience is now demanding more and more. Its a whole new ballgame going on as to the way in which an artist is perceived is evolving.

You step on stage at your own risk. And the benefits and liabilities of that risk are increasing at an accelerated pace.

Now more than ever whether those of you who dig Frank admit it or not Rosolino's music becomes, even by the ongoing debate on this forum, more and more a projection of a demonstrably very unhealthy personality, the end being the proof of that.  

It never was just about the music if it ever was.

And these days its about a whole lot more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf3KkcdPRUg

(Strong language alert! RHM)

Quote from: BoneCall on Nov 02, 2007, 08:13AM
Now more than ever whether those of you who dig Frank admit it or not Rosolino's music becomes, even by the ongoing debate on this forum, more and more a projection of a demonstrably very unhealthy personality, the end being the proof of that.   


Jerry, I've noticed a more annoying than usual trend (call it a "tic" if you will)  in the arguments you've proffered on this forum of late--the simple reiteration of the same point ad nauseum and the sullen refusal to acknowledge any point made in opposition. I'm not going to even bother dredging up the questions I brought up earlier in the thread, because I'm certain you won't answer them. You never do. However, I'll do you the favor of assuming that what you write on this board isn't a reflection of some kind of mental deficiency or sociopathic disorder. It's a performance. I have to believe that, because if the person you are in real life is reflected in what you post here, heaven help you.

QuoteJerry, I've noticed a more annoying than usual trend (call it a "tic" if you will)  in the arguments you've proffered on this forum of late--the simple reiteration of the same point ad nauseum and the sullen refusal to acknowledge any point made in opposition. I'm not going to even bother dredging up the questions I brought up earlier in the thread, because I'm certain you won't answer them. You never do. However, I'll do you the favor of assuming that what you write on this board isn't a reflection of some kind of mental deficiency or sociopathic disorder. It's a performance. I have to believe that, because if the person you are in real life is reflected in what you post here, heaven help you.

Thats funny! 

If someone doesn't agree with or respond to points you think are important then they're mentally deficient.

Thats a new one.

Pardon me if I use that one with you sometime.

I can assure you that NOTHING here is new!

And let's not get into another round of sniping.

Quote from: RedHotMama on Nov 02, 2007, 09:29AMI can assure you that NOTHING here is new!

And let's not get into another round of sniping.

I'm done.

QuoteAnd let's not get into another round of sniping.
Well, it didn't start from my side.

QuoteI can assure you that NOTHING here is new!

Pardon me if I disagree Moma. Well, if not new then terribly important to us as performers and the way we behave on stage and off and how those two parts of our lives are intertwined. A discussion on this very point was cut off by a misguided moderator in a different section of this forum some time ago just before the matter came to a crux and after pages of preparatory discussion. It was my submission then, as it is now, that *everything* we do, on stage or off - laugh, sing, tap dance, play the trombone, join a band, get married, kill our kids - is all part of the act.