How to learn to play jazz on trombone?

[berntd]

I would so much like to play jazz. Traditional jazz for a start.

I have followed the advise to listen to the old masters, try a lead tone, etc but I still have not managed to get anywhere.
There seem to be no videos on youtube that go into it much. Just a few demos but those people already know what to play

I simply do not know what to play. I sort of know the chord progressions of some pieces but have no managed to convert that into something that sounds good.

I do not have a big knowledge of music theory. I know some but nothing about the strange chords and scales used in jazz as such. I can play all the major scales and tones up to almost high Bb above the staff. That is about it.

The lessons I took only go into technicalities of playing the trombone but I have not learned anything else.

I use Arban and a few other books for some practice.
The music I play mostly comes from The Dixieland Real book and the accompaniment is programmed into Band in a Box.

My books all just feature the melody / lead and I can play those but so does my partner on trumpet and I really need to do something else.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for me perhaps?

[Bach5G]

Despite the title, lots of ideas in:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18730

[BGuttman]

If you are really interested in "Trad Jazz" (Dixieland) there are a couple of easy "rules" you can follow. First, understand that the great Dixieland players of the past did not learn a ton of theory and chord progressions -- they learned by ear.

The Dixieland combo front line developed from the Marching Band of the Sousa era. The three main instruments had the following roles:

Cornet: melody
Clarinet: obbligato above the melody
Trombone: countermelody, much like a Euphonium.
.
There is a Web site called "redhotjazz.com" with recordings from the early days of Jazz. Listen to groups like the New Orleans Rhythm Kings and the Original Dixieland Jazz Band. Listen for what the non-melody instruments are doing. Also look for players like Miff Mole, Eddie Edwards, and Jack Teagarden.

There used to be some books of "licks" -- short two-bar phrases to be inserted into solo. I had one by Miff Mole called "100 Hot Licks" which was actually about a dozen licks transposed into 12 keys.

The structure of a Dixieland song would be tutti (cornet on lead), then solos for the front line (usually clarinet, cornet, trombone), solo for the tuba, and a tutti repeat.

There's a lot of good posts here and on the old Trombone Forum (which we have some of here -- thanks, Matt K). You don't need to be a Charlie Parker or Miles Davis level player to do Dixieland. Simply adding "hot licks" to a melody will often suffice.

[Doug Elliott]

The first thing to do is to practice playing by ear, a lot. Pick a starting note and play a song you know, or just a phrase if it's too hard to get through a whole song. Keep trying until you get it right and remember what you did. Then pick a different starting note and play the same tune or phrase. Keep doing that, picking different starting notes.

You HAVE to get comfortable playing by ear before you can expect any real success improvising.

[afugate]

The first thing to do is to practice playing by ear, a lot. Pick a starting note and play a song you know, or just a phrase if it's too hard to get through a whole song. Keep trying until you get it right and remember what you did. Then pick a different starting note and play the same tune or phrase. Keep doing that, picking different starting notes.

You HAVE to get comfortable playing by ear before you can expect any real success improvising.

When I first started trying to learn to play by ear I used cable TV music stations that played the kind of music I liked and was familiar with. (In my case, music of the Rat Pack and Broadway show tunes.) I would tune to a station and just try to find notes in a song that was being played. Soon I was able to figure out melody lines. It was challenging, but also fun to try to figure out how to play along with each song.

Today's modern equivalent would be Spotify or Pandora. Pick something you're familiar with and then let it start feeding you tunes.

--Andy in OKC

[baileyman]

...
When I first started trying to learn to play by ear I used cable TV music stations that played the kind of music I liked and was familiar with. (In my case, music of the Rat Pack and Broadway show tunes.) I would tune to a station and just try to find notes in a song that was being played. Soon I was able to figure out melody lines. It was challenging, but also fun to try to figure out how to play along with each song.

Today's modern equivalent would be Spotify or Pandora. Pick something you're familiar with and then let it start feeding you tunes.

--Andy in OKC

Just like the old days! Put on a record, get 17min sessions. Or put on a 45, get 3min.

[robcat2075]

Here's a snippet of a college class curriculum.

I have no idea if it is valid or not. Someone brought this to the cello forum complaining that it was too hard.

Some of it looked doable. The Week 1 directive to "interpret like a professional" seems a bit... nebulous... for week 1

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For reference, here is "Groovin' High" that is mentioned.

groovin-high.gif

I was struck by how well that would sit on the cello (down an octave). You could just shift your hand up and down the fingerboard and re-use the same fingerings as that motif got re-used in different chords. You have to be a mechanical genius to play that on a saxophone.

[berntd]

That curriculum is not stuff a normal trombone teacher would teach. At least not any of the ones I have come across here.

[Bach5G]

Learn some tunes. Midnight in Moscow. Make it sound “jazzy”.

[ithinknot]

Here's a snippet of a college class curriculum.

'Interpret like a professional' is pretty good - "here's $5, now f*** off" - though I also got stuck on 'Name at least 8 things that can build energy in a solo' ... does T-shirt Cannon come before or after Make It Rain?


Anyway... for the OP - Doug's advice is the only thing that really matters at this stage. It's about learning to listen. (I wrote the rest of my usual spiel back on this topic and won't bore you with it here https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18788)

[harrisonreed]

Find people who are better than you will are willing to let you fail hard while they cover for you in a friendly rehearsal setting. The difficult part here is being brave enough to approach someone and ask for their help.

Practice with something like iRealpro. Don't just mess around -- I am sure you can sing something that works with the backing track. Write out solos that work and memorize them in one key. Then change the key in iReal. Don't write out that memorized solo in the new key,just learn it by ear.

Do step 1 as often as you can.

Do step 2 in all 12 keys for the entire fake book. Hundreds of tunes.

Eventually people will start asking you to come back to rehearse with them instead of you begging to let you hang with them.

Eventually you won't have to write out new solos for the next piece in the fake book, and the bits and pieces you remember from your old solos will just come out. New stuff will come out too.

Now you can start turning down others when they ask you to let them hang in your rehearsals...

There is no way to just spontaneously be able to improvise or understand jazz and commercial playing. You must first understand what works, and why it works, and the best way to do that is by singing with the backing track, transcribing what you sang, memorizing that on the trombone, and then changing keys. This hits everything -- the solo came out of your head and wasn't copied, it will like work better with the music than something you spontaneously played because singing is usually more innate to us, and you are forcing you brain to bridge the gap by understanding what you are playing, memorizing it, and then "improvising" by changing keys. It might take 100 tunes. 100 times through the entire process should should get you at least to a reasonable level. Say you spend two hours per piece writing out something that sounds really good, and another two hours memorizing it. Then probably another hour per key throughout the next week. That'll get you over 1000 hours of dedicated practice, which is 10% of the way there.

[Doug Elliott]

I would definitely fail the test on scales.

Whoever wrote that course might want to fix the dumb enharmonic mistakes in Groovin' High. Maybe they're too busy judging other people's scales to notice their own mistakes.

[blast]

I would definitely fail the test on scales.

Whoever wrote that course might want to fix the dumb enharmonic mistakes in Groovin' High. Maybe they're too busy judging other people's scales to notice their own mistakes.

You just cheered me up, thanks Doug.

[Wilktone]

Here's a snippet of a college class curriculum.

I have no idea if it is valid or not. Someone brought this to the cello forum complaining that it was too hard.

There's nothing bad in that syllabus, per se. There's a lot of context missing in what we're seeing here that could make it too hard, too easy, or just right for who it's intended for. Is it a beginning improvisation class or an intermediate or advanced one? Is it at a school with very high admission standards or a school that will allow any interested student take the course? Too hard for one cohort of students is too easy for another.

The tunes and other topics covered in there are probably not going to be very relevant for berntd's interest in trad jazz, however.

'Interpret like a professional' is pretty good - "here's $5, now f*** off" - though I also got stuck on 'Name at least 8 things that can build energy in a solo' ... does T-shirt Cannon come before or after Make It Rain?

Context is important. I *think* I understand what the instructor means by "interpret like a professional," but it's not defined in the syllabus we're seeing. If you play the melody to "All the Things Your Are" exactly as notated you're going to sound square and like an amateur. A professional jazz musician will interpret the melody slightly differently, with rhythmic variations and probably some melodic reimagining. I'm sure that the instructor defines these terms and teachers the other concepts in class before testing students on them.

I also think it's worth thinking about things we can use in our improvisations to build energy in a solo. You can use those topics to create exercises that improve your facility in using that musical technique to build excitement.

The syllabus isn't supposed to be a course of study or a guide on how to practice, it's a descriptions of the topics that you'll learn over the course of the semester. Presumably you'd be getting instructions in all those topics along the way that break them down into manageable goals.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for me perhaps?

I'd have to give some thought into how I would design a curriculum to learn trad jazz that would be more relevant. Different tunes, for one thing. There are good lists online for trad jazz tunes to learn. Here's one I found with 8:

https://learntradjazz.com/2019/05/18/8- ... uld-learn/

That's a pretty good start.

With trad jazz it's important to know the role that the various instruments play so that you understand what to play and how that fits into the rest of the ensemble. You should not only understand how to tailgate but also how that fits in with what the trumpet/cornet and clarinet/sax would be playing. You need to know the melody pretty well in order to stay off of the melody notes at key times.

Trad jazz relies much more on collective improvisation than modern jazz styles, so that would be an important part of the curriculum.

Rather than working on all the scales listed in that syllabus I'd focus on chord tones/arpeggios, some of the major scale modes, major pentatonic, minor pentatonic, and blues scales. I'd probably throw in some work on diatonic and non-diatonic passing tones.

And of course focused listening and transcribing is extremely helpful. As is trying to get together with like-minded musicians regularly. Learning to improvise a collective shout chorus without playing with other musicians is going to be a lot more difficult with just an iRealB or Band-in-a-Box accompaniment. Playing along with recordings you like will help. Copy the trombone part (to the best of your abilities) and try to assimilate what the trombonist is playing in the context of the tune's melody and chord progression and apply to other tunes.

Grab some lessons with a player experienced in playing the style you want to learn.

Dave

[soseggnchips]

Are there any ear-training courses out there? Maybe a CD or something? Seems like there'd be a market for a set of progressive exercises.

[robcat2075]

I'll note that that copy of "Groovin' High" was not provided by the course instructor.

I just pulled that off the Internet to get some idea of what was being discussed because... "Groovin' High"?

I wouldn't know a "Groovin' High" from a "Flaming Moe".

Here's a snippet of a college class curriculum.

I have no idea if it is valid or not. Someone brought this to the cello forum complaining that it was too hard.

There's nothing bad in that syllabus, per se. There's a lot of context missing in what we're seeing here...

Yes, I'm sure there is more to it. I would be very curious to see what the class room instruction comprises

If that is a class that has been in operation for more than one semester there must be some successful result coming out of it.

[ithinknot]

'Interpret like a professional' is pretty good ...

Context is important.

Quite - my snark notwithstanding, of course there's plenty there that's perfectly reasonable. But, if we must be serious, the 'advanced scale spelling bee' approach tends to raise certain suspicions, in that it provides a faux-objective framework in which people who might not really know what they're hearing can teach and assess 'concrete things' ... The theory is neutral and can be extremely useful, but its implementation is too often a convenient source of pedagogical busywork. (In the classical world, Schenkerian analysis tends to attract the same characters.)

I'll note that that copy of "Groovin' High" was not provided by the course instructor.

That's something, at least.

[Bach5G]

DW wrote: “Grab some lessons with a player experienced in playing the style you want to learn.”

This could be at the top of the list.

[Wilktone]

Are there any ear-training courses out there? Maybe a CD or something? Seems like there'd be a market for a set of progressive exercises.

I'm sure there are. Here's one I found many years ago. I haven't personally used any of his apps in a while, but I remember them working pretty well.

https://www.iwasdoingallright.com/ear-training/

I just pulled that off the Internet to get some idea of what was being discussed because... "Groovin' High"?

I wouldn't know a "Groovin' High" from a "Flaming Moe".

Groovin' High is a bebop standard written by Dizzy Gillespie. I have no doubt that if you go to a jam session and call this tune that most players would at least be familiar with it, if not be able to play it by memory.

https://youtu.be/oslMFOeFoLI

It's also useful because it has ii-V progressions in multiple keys, so it can be useful for gaining facility with those chord progressions (see the syllabus).

But, if we must be serious, the 'advanced scale spelling bee' approach tends to raise certain suspicions, in that it provides a faux-objective framework in which people who might not really know what they're hearing can teach and assess 'concrete things' ... The theory is neutral and can be extremely useful, but its implementation is too often a convenient source of pedagogical busywork. (In the classical world, Schenkerian analysis tends to attract the same characters.)

I don't disagree with your premise, but I see too often that we can take the extreme that you're criticizing to the opposite extreme. Ear training IS music theory and vice versa. If you're not developing your ear when you practice scales and chord arpeggios you're doing it wrong. If you're not working on the theoretical basis for what you're playing by ear you're doing it wrong. They are two sides of the same coin.

Without knowing the instructor and what the rest of the curriculum is I don't really know if your criticism is valid for this particular course. I like how there is an emphasis on learning a tune each week and how there are specific exercises designed to get you putting specific theoretical topics into a playing context (e.g., using the altered scale over a tune in a minor key). I imagine that the instructor is taking all those theoretical concepts and selecting tunes for the class that help to introduce and improve the student's abilities, so I wouldn't assume that the written tests are just busy work.

I'm less concerned about what I see in that syllabus than what I don't see. I would include at least one transcription assignment and also include some discussions about phrasing, rhythmic concepts, and stylistic considerations. It's possible those topics come up throughout the semester, but perhaps aren't as formally assessed.

Dave

[Bach5G]

Or you could listen to something like this, (maybe with a music slow downer app) and learn to play trad.

https://youtu.be/3Di2gyWjWzU

[ithinknot]

the 'advanced scale spelling bee' approach tends to raise certain suspicions

I don't disagree with your premise, but I see too often that we can take the extreme that you're criticizing to the opposite extreme. Ear training IS music theory and vice versa. If you're not developing your ear when you practice scales and chord arpeggios you're doing it wrong. If you're not working on the theoretical basis for what you're playing by ear you're doing it wrong. They are two sides of the same coin.

Absolutely... it's always both, and I was pro-theory the last time this came up

To turn this back towards the OP's position (and particularly in light of how something like this curriculum must appear 'from outside') I would simply suggest that the practical and ear training approaches are the most important ones for someone looking to break the ice. The impediments to getting started aren't theoretical, or even resource-based.

First, you just have to start playing anything - and then something - by ear.

[robcat2075]

Groovin' High is a bebop standard written by Dizzy Gillespie. I have no doubt that if you go to a jam session and call this tune that most players would at least be familiar with it

Imagine my embarrassment! I had guessed it was a Cheech & Chong movie.

Or Annette Funicello. it works either way!

[Bach5G]

S Bell posts a How to Improvise on Trombone course on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/U_olLOJYCGw

No affiliation.

[Oslide]

Or you could listen to something like this, (maybe with a music slow downer app) and learn to play trad.

https://youtu.be/3Di2gyWjWzU

A couple of days ago, I found by chance that you don't need a special app to slow down the speed of a tune on Youtube. A simple click on the 'flower' symbol at the lower border of the Youtube window opens a menu that enables you to change the speed of the music without changing the pitch.

[Macbone1]

When improvising in jazz, everything just seems to go by so fast to the novice. Next thing you know your 16 bars are over and what did you say, if anything? To solo you need to be in control, on top of the chords stream, looking and hearing down and ahead of it.
To be able to do that, playing melodies by ear is very important, yes....as you do, think INTERVALS and scale fragments. Transpose that same by ear melody to another key, thinking intervals the whole time, then another key. Once you can hear leaps like 4ths or greater in your head BEFORE you play the note, you're on your way.

[Reedman1]

A couple of current players who play really good trad jazz trombone: Charlie Halloran, Josh Holcomb. John Allred and Harvey Tibbs are also fantastic - masters of the idiom with great ears and fantastic imaginations.

[berntd]

I know but how can that help me?
I want to play like Charlie Halloran.
But most of all, like Gunhild Carling

[BGuttman]

You have to analyze and internalize what they are doing. This is the main reason we recommend transcribing solos -- and then analyzing. How does your idol react to the different chords in the piece? Is there some kind of pattern? Do you want to do this as well?

This kind of analysis doesn't happen overnight. And the internalization takes even more time.

[Bach5G]

Barnaby Dickinson’s 30 30-second lessons on improvising on trombone.

Try this Facebook link:

[berntd]

Thank you!

[Bigbasst]

I studied with a trombone player for a while and it seems they typically have an unusual strong grasp of harmony. Also, most trombonists I know are also able to demonstrate things on the piano very well too.

[AndersLarson]

Two parallel approaches that you can't get around:

1. LISTEN and play and HEAR what you are about to play. Try singing simple phrases within a scale or to a certain chord while moving the slide. Then play the same phrase using the exact same slide movements. Did it match? Start crazy simple and push yourself towards harder and harder phrases.

2. STEAL all the phrases you like from your favorite trombone players (or other instruments). Learn them by heart in several keys and turn them into your own. I love stealing phrases

3. TRANSCRIBE solos. Great for both chops, inspiration, and ear training.

4. READ music and play stuff you can't (yet) hear in your head before it's played. Try transcribed trombone solos or trombone jazz etudes - you can try out 30+ jazz etudes based on jazz standards for free at digitaltrombone.com

Good luck!