TromboneChat

I made only two options because I dont like the "dont know" option.

Leif

I'm presuming that, whatever their native language, the person is intending to post in English... because that will get them the most interaction and response.

As long as someone can make some variety of sense, I think you will find that only the blowhards would take any offense at non-native English speakers joining the flock.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jun 03, 2016, 02:58PMI'm presuming that, whatever their native language, the person is intending to post in English... because that will get them the most interaction and response.

Presume what you want....

Leif

I find it hard to imagine the circumstances in which somebody would click 'no' in answer to that question...

If your main language is not English but you have some fluency you are welcome.  I have had some problems with people who write in their language and have Google Translate put it in English, then take our responses and try to have Google Translate translate the answers back into their language.  In most cases we won't understand the question and the requester won't understand the answers.

If you want to start a Forum in Norwegian, Russian, Swedish, or even Esperanto, that's great.  But make the people converse in the Forum language.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 03, 2016, 03:57PMIf your main language is not English but you have some fluency you are welcome.  I have had some problems with people who write in their language and have Google Translate put it in English, then take our responses and try to have Google Translate translate the answers back into their language.  In most cases we won't understand the question and the requester won't understand the answers.

If you want to start a Forum in Norwegian, Russian, Swedish, or even Esperanto, that's great.  But make the people converse in the Forum language.
Inspite of the extra work, I've seen you and the forum bend over backwards to help non-english posters. "Polish Lake" comes to mind but that only took 36 hr.s to find a member bi-lingual in Romanian.
Being ignorant in many languages* it always impresses me when Savior or members from other foreign lands, NZ, CA write so well in English.

DRB
Seola Creek

I got through 3acts of La Boheme in Oslo before Mimi's polite Nei takk told me that the production wasn't in French.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 03, 2016, 03:30PMI find it hard to imagine the circumstances in which somebody would click 'no' in answer to that question...

Read history.

Leif

Quote from: Douglas Fur on Jun 03, 2016, 04:48PM...
I got through 3acts of La Boheme in Oslo before Mimi's polite Nei takk told me that the production wasn't in French.


That's OK.  The opera was written in Italian (by Puccini).  They only live in France.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 03, 2016, 03:57PMIf you want to start a Forum in Norwegian, Russian, Swedish, or even Esperanto, that's great.  But make the people converse in the Forum language.

Unless it's a Canadian forum: then they make you post everything in BOTH official languages ... eh?

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 03, 2016, 04:56PMThat's OK.  The opera was written in Italian (by Puccini).  They only live in France.
Like I said I'm ignorant in many languages, probably hundreds if not more.
DRB

Quote from: savio on Jun 03, 2016, 04:55PMRead history.
You're not asking if it's okay according to the consensus of the history of English speaking countries though, are you? You're talking about here and now ... no?
 
If anyone gives you a hard time you can always remind them that your English is (more than likely) a helluva lot better than their Norwegian ... eh?
 
That's what I usually reply when an international student (and the UGA Science Library) apologizes for struggling a bit with English (i.e. their English is a whole lot better than my Japanese, French, Chinese, Hindi, German ... whatever).

Many English-based forums require that posts be in English so that the moderators can properly do their job, to delete spam and other nefarious uses of the internet.

Quote from: Douglas Fur on Jun 03, 2016, 04:48PMI got through 3acts of La Boheme in Oslo before Mimi's polite Nei takk...

Please tell me there was a recording.

I wonder if Anglophonic anxiety isn't common amongst Scandinavians of a certain age. I can't help but think of Kurt Wallander agonizing over the correct English pronunciation of "Kurt."

Really, we're pretty easy-going about these things for the most part. After all, it's not like any of us born to English can speak the language properly either. And no one can write it.

QuoteIs it ok to join this forum when your  primary language is not english?
What prompted the question?

Quote from: Douglas Fur on Jun 03, 2016, 07:50PMLike I said I'm ignorant in many languages, probably hundreds if not more.
DRB

I had a scoutmaster who used to say "I can speak any language but Greek.  And what you are saying is all Greek to me."  Sounds like the kind of quip Groucho Marx would use.

People who know three languages are called trilingual.
People who know two languages are called bilingual.
People who know only one language are called Americans.

Quote from: gregs70 on Jun 04, 2016, 01:18PMPeople who know three languages are called trilingual.
People who know two languages are called bilingual.
People who know only one language are called Americans.

If posts on internet forums and social media are any indicator, you're giving Americans W-A-A-A-A-Y too much credit.    …

"Please tell me there was a recording."

Actually the more interesting musical event was coming across a Hawaiian guitarist doing a sound check in a huge empty beer garden. The exotic music drifting down an Oslo street, so out of context it was if there had been a teleporter error.

"I wonder if Anglophonic anxiety isn't common amongst Scandinavians of a certain age. I can't help but think of Kurt Wallander agonizing over the correct English pronunciation of "Kurt.""

The pendulum swings. My grand parents were fluent in Norwegian. I never knew this or heard it, only learning about it years after their passing. My Grandfather was never Svend, his given name, but used "Fred", the American version of his middle name.

This has been true of many immigrants, they're Americans now and leave the old country behind. My great-grandfather had dropped his family name on immigrating and adopted "Bogen" as less ethnic.

Maybe this lingers in our reticence  to learn other languages.
DRB
Seola Creek

Actually, not all name changes were voluntary.

My wife's grandfather's family came from Poland where the name was Latanicky.  The Ellis Island people couldn't understand the Polish pronunciation and renamed them Wasserman.

There is an old joke about the new immigrant arriving at Ellis Island.  His brother had been renamed to something (we'll say Wolfowitz) and he needed to show he was related.  So he's on line saying to himself "My name is Wolfowitz... My name is Wolfowitz... ".  Come to the desk with the stern guy in the uniform who says brusquely "What is your name".  Our poor immigrant is frightened to death and says "Shein, Fargessen" (Yiddish for "What a pity, I forgot!").  And so Shane Fergussen got his start in America.

Leif's English, however he arrives at it, is a LOT more understandable than some American members here.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 04, 2016, 07:30PMLeif's English, however he arrives at it, is a LOT more understandable than some American members here.



I'll second that!

I think the language should be English at any Internet forum.

Why not?

Well, I've spend nearly all my life trying to learn English to be able to speak and make my self understood, so I hope it is not in vain. I don't think any other language can compete with English unless we turn this to a Chinese forum.

All the western countries learn English in school and most other countries as well.

I have no problem with this language but what I sometimes feel be annoying is that the forum is too American in it's nature. On the other hand it is understandable it is, because most here are Americans. Sometimes I'm annoyed because you talk like you all live at the same street

I don't mind to feel a bit awkward and foreign to you, but we must all understand that the globe is a huge place and there are great things going on everywhere all around our planet. It is obvious that in general knowledge about what is going on in the other parts of the world is not very much known of. It is because the rest of the world is not here!!!!!

We all know about great american jazz musicians and can discuss them but who knows about Monica Zetterlund or Harry Arnold and are you really interested, or who has ever heard of Peter Asplund.

We ALL know about Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton but who bothers to know about our Swedish politicians. I don't think anyone is interested (I'm not either) but sometimes this forum presumes we all want to think like Americans. I understand when there are a lot of Americans at one place (this forum) it turns to that, but please I'm from Sweden and I'm just as proud of my origin as you are of yours. We should get more international. I wonder how?

So I'm not having any trouble with the language but the fact that for some reason trombone players all around the rest of this world are not here (not writing much that is, besides me and a few other who do write) - and the rest of the world is a big great place. I wonder why they are not here?

/Tom

We've had Graham Martin trying to bring up topics of Australian politics, but he seems to be talking to a wall; despite several other Aussie members.  I don't remember any of our English friends posting about local politics despite the incipient BREXIT election.

As to politics in countries where the native language is not English, I doubt it would have ANY traction here at all.

If you were to describe the situation in Sweden we might be curious (I certainly am), but as to making any value judgments -- I don't know enough to make a cogent comment.

But feel free to dis Trump all you want.  Seems most people outside the US want to (and he deserves it!).

Quote from: watermailonman on Jun 08, 2016, 10:44AMI think the language should be English at any Internet forum.
 
Why not?
I'd say the language and everything else about a given forum should be whatever the forum owner wants it to be ... as long as it's legal of course (even if that means trying to communicate in Canadian).

Okay but.

I think we mostly do a good job of accommodating the non-native English speakers.  I'm in awe of how well they do, being a long way from fluent in any other language myself. 

On the other hand, there are a lot of native US speaking people who write without any regard for spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc., and I find that disrespectful. 

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Jun 08, 2016, 12:05PMas long as it's legal of course (even if that means trying to communicate in Canadian).

Which language is legal in Canada is probably a whole topic in itself.

QuoteWell, I've spend nearly all my life trying to learn English to be able to speak and make my self understood, so I hope it is not in vain.
Watermailonman, your English appears completely confident and well-handled.


I recall traveling in Europe in the 70s and people might say they spoke English if you asked them, but a few sentences in and it was clear their English was pretty sketchy.

Since then, English in continental Europe seems to have made large advances, but maybe it only appears that way to me because all of my contacts are with the few Europeans brave enough and confident enough to visit English-language places on the Internet. 


For this forum to be more international, more international people will need to visit it. I don't think the Americans can make it more international by being less American.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jun 08, 2016, 09:15PMWatermailonman, your English appears completely confident and well-handled.

I recall traveling in Europe in the 70s and people might say they spoke English if you asked them, but a few sentences in and it was clear their English was pretty sketchy.

English is a core-curriculum course of study in Sweden and there's loads of English-language film and television.  In my experience Swedes, especially young Swedes, tend to speak English remarkably well.

I've even been told that it's sometimes easier for Scandinavians to speak English amongst themselves rather than their native languages.  Mind you, the person who told me that might have just been taking a swipe at Danes.

Quote from: Eastcheap on Jun 08, 2016, 10:04PM  Mind you, the person who told me that might have just been taking a swipe at Danes.

Norwegian and Danish are said to be largely mutually intelligible.

My (Danish-descended) uncle said he had a job during WWII, translating Danish into Norwegian, possibly the easiest job in the Army.

Quote from: Eastcheap on Jun 08, 2016, 10:04PMEnglish is a core-curriculum course of study in Sweden and there's loads of English-language film and television.  In my experience Swedes, especially young Swedes, tend to speak English remarkably well.

I've even been told that it's sometimes easier for Scandinavians to speak English amongst themselves rather than their native languages.  Mind you, the person who told me that might have just been taking a swipe at Danes.

True  Swedes and Norwegians understand each other pretty well. Danish is easy to read for a Swede but more difficult when spoken, but after some training it gets easier. People from Iceland have the same sounds in their language as we do, and if heard from distance it sounds just like Swedish. If you get close and really listen then we notice that we don't share many words. Occasional words can be picked up but nothing makes sense. Finnish is completely different. We have to speak English to understand a Finn or they have to speak Swedish because Finland has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish.

/Tom

I see now this topic is a little stupid. Sorry. Most people outside English spoken countries speak good English today. My generation not so good but I see people like Tom and many others have very good English. My daughter have highest score in School and can even speak different dialects like Australian, Texas, London etc. Funny to listen. But she tell me my English is very bad. So do my wife, but she have English as first Language.

I made the topic a little stupid, the question should be only for me who cant Express myself in English. If we turn the question upside down it could make sense for other People here. If you find a forum in let us say Italy but Your italien is not so good. Still its a forum that interest you very much. Would you join and use Google translate to read and Write? The risk is you dont understand all, and not all will understand you either.

When I make that question to myself, I believe I should be more careful. Even though this forum have lot of good people that understand the problem. I got lot of help and understanding here.

I hoped my English would be better after some time but its not, my wife tells its even worse because I started blend in some Norwegian Words..

Well, I start another poll about register and range soon. Should be much more interesting. Sorry for this tread all good friends, this forum is very understanding and kind against people like me, thanks for that 

Leif

Quote from: savio on Jun 09, 2016, 01:08AMIf you find a forum in let us say Italy but Your italien is not so good. Still its a forum that interest you very much. Would you join and use Google translate to read and Write? The risk is you dont understand all, and not all will understand you either.

A few years back I joined a Norwegian brass band forum to ask questions to help me locate bands for this. I used Google Translate to go back and forth, and it basically worked fine - I apologised in advance for the awkwardness of the arrangement, posted both English and Norwegian versions of the text in each post in case somebody else spoke better English than Google's Norwegian, and was aware that I was missing nuances, but there were no problems, and I learned one or two words of Norwegian. This is of course a bit different from getting involved regularly - but then one's language skills improve with the practice of regular interaction.

Takk, Leif.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 08, 2016, 10:51AMWe've had Graham Martin trying to bring up topics of Australian politics, but he seems to be talking to a wall; despite several other Aussie members.  I don't remember any of our English friends posting about local politics despite the incipient BREXIT election.
It's a critical mass thing, and in particular when we are talking about politics, a critical mass thing specific to those who like the off-topic sections and can bear to debate these things. And given that the critical mass for those discussions is US-based, anything else that is attempted tends to get drowned out by the usual discourse - it is self-reinforcing.

Think yourselves lucky you don't have a Brexit topic here. The whole thing is the most awful mish-mash of lies, disinformation, unacknowledged biases, and Dunning-Kruger, at every level from gutter to Westminster. We might seriously walk away based on flights of emotion and gut feelings mixed with a weird nostalgia for an utterly indefensible and long departed ancient situation. Aargh... When we did we grow so forgetful?

Quote from: gregs70 on Jun 04, 2016, 01:18PMPeople who know three languages are called trilingual.
People who know two languages are called bilingual.
People who know only one language are called Americans.

The actual term in English is monoglot.

My brother-in-law is Czech. He works quite often with Germans who don't speak Czech. His German is poor and they don't speak Czech. What do they do? They communicate in English.

Quote from: Eastcheap on Jun 08, 2016, 10:04PMEnglish is a core-curriculum course of study in Sweden and there's loads of English-language film and television.  In my experience Swedes, especially young Swedes, tend to speak English remarkably well.



We lived in Germany for 5 years courtesy of my employer.

In the more urban areas I was told English is pretty common.  In my area it was not, even for local nationals working for the US. 

One of our friends commented that English is taught in schools.  Then he asked the group of adult Americans how many of them could still do their high school geometry problems.  His point was clear.   Language is a skill with a shelf life, if not used, and for older Germans in Bavaria there was little opportunity to use it. 

We had a canadian conductor working with us in one of the orchestras I played in
 After his slow progress in german, the concertmaster suggested he rehearsed in english. The brass section spoke barely a word of english amongst them... I had to translate everything on the spot, including bar numbers, rehearsal marks,  not just the more complext instructions.
It was certainly a workout for my german.

I was in an Edeka once and ran into a Turkish family with no German, and the store personnel had no Turkish.

But the Turkish people had some English, and I ended up translating to German for them.  My German was never more than rudimentary but it sufficed.

What I found the most intimidating was calling a German business on the phone and trying to arrange an appointment.  When the pressure is on it's hard to remember the words, and you can't use gestures to help.  Answering machines are even worse. 

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 09, 2016, 07:17AMI was in an Edeka once and ran into a Turkish family with no German, and the store personnel had no Turkish.

But the Turkish people had some English, and I ended up translating to German for them.  My German was never more than rudimentary but it sufficed.

What I found the most intimidating was calling a German business on the phone and trying to arrange an appointment.  When the pressure is on it's hard to remember the words, and you can't use gestures to help.  Answering machines are even worse. 


I still hate answering machines don't speak english at all (except with my wife) anymore.

Quote from: Dombat on Jun 09, 2016, 09:11AM
I still hate answering machines don't speak english at all (except with my wife) anymore.

I used to be in your neighborhood.  I worked at Faulenberg Kaserne and Leighton Barracks 2003 - 2006, lived in Kitzingen.  (well, Grosslangheim)   When we moved to Wuerzburg we stayed at the Dorint Hotel until we found a house.  Great hotel, VERY scarey parking garage for an American with a big vehicle.

Quote from: gregs70 on Jun 04, 2016, 01:18PMPeople who know three languages are called trilingual.
People who know two languages are called bilingual.
People who know only one language are called Americans.

However, research shows that About One in Four Americans Can Hold a Conversation in a Second Language

That's still less than Europe, where Most Europeans can speak multiple languages. UK and Ireland not so much

Quote...Almost everyone in Luxembourg (98%), Latvia (95%), the Netherlands (94%), Malta (93%), Slovenia and Lithuania (92% each), and Sweden (91%) are able to speak at least one language in addition to their mother tongue.

Countries where people are least likely to be able to speak any foreign language are Hungary (65%), Italy (62%), the UK and Portugal (61% in each), and Ireland (60%).

My family is Arab and I can speak both Arabic and English.  Only my grandparents speak Arabic to me not the other grandchildren as they only know English.  I'm also the only one to be born outside the US. 

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 09, 2016, 10:41AMI used to be in your neighborhood.  I worked at Faulenberg Kaserne and Leighton Barracks 2003 - 2006, lived in Kitzingen.  (well, Grosslangheim)   When we moved to Wuerzburg we stayed at the Dorint Hotel until we found a house.  Great hotel, VERY scarey parking garage for an American with a big vehicle.



I love würzburg. Unfortunately I don't live there anymore. After winning a job in another orchestra I moved. I really should update my profile.

At least in Würzburg there are enough students that english is common enough for tourists to get around. Kitzingen must have been something else.

Quote from: savio on Jun 09, 2016, 01:08AMI made the topic a little stupid, the question should be only for me who cant Express myself in English.

I think we got that, and the response has been overwhelmingly in your favor.

QuoteI hoped my English would be better after some time but its not, my wife tells its even worse because I started blend in some Norwegian Words..

Feel free.  It makes things mer interessant.


Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 09, 2016, 05:13AMOne of our friends commented that English is taught in schools.  Then he asked the group of adult Americans how many of them could still do their high school geometry problems.

If every other TV program were about geometry, I bet the results would be different.  Scandinavians take English really seriously, but there's a, sometimes stark, generational divide.


Quote from: robcat2075 on Jun 09, 2016, 12:21PMHowever, research shows that About One in Four Americans Can Hold a Conversation in a Second Language

I'd guess that it's considerably higher in Dallas.

QuoteThat's still less than Europe, where Most Europeans can speak multiple languages. UK and Ireland not so much

Multiple languages often means multiple closely related languages...plus English.  For various political reasons, English was never divided up in the same way, so its closest relation that unambiguously counts as a separate language is probably Dutch.  Dansk/norsk/svenska are also closer than you might think.  But none is all that close.

Also, consider that you can get on a commuter flight most anywhere in Europe and, after a half hour in flight, stand a good chance of landing in a different country with a different language.  Try that from Love Field and you'll land in San Antonio.

QuoteUK and Ireland not so much

Well, the next-door neighbor is France.  Need I say more?

(The other British languages are another topic; one waaay beyond the scope of this conversation.)

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jun 09, 2016, 12:21PMHowever, research shows that About One in Four Americans Can Hold a Conversation in a Second Language

That's still less than Europe, where Most Europeans can speak multiple languages. UK and Ireland not so much


I read the Gallup poll.  55% of those one in four speak Spanish.  I would wager that a large majority of the 25% are immigrants or children of immigrants, not people who grew up here and made an effort to learn another language.   

Quote from: gregs70 on Jun 09, 2016, 06:35PMI read the Gallup poll.  55% of those one in four speak Spanish.  I would wager that a large majority of the 25% are immigrants or children of immigrants, not people who grew up here and made an effort to learn another language.   

I would wager that most of them are people who grew up here, living with elders who speak the old language but also living in the English-speaking society.

I always figured it´d be cool to join a forum about a topic that IS in a different language. Might help me build some norsk-skills...

I´ll tell you from most of the Norwegians I know... some Norwegians take NORWEGIAN really seriously

But in all honesty, I (as many Americans) tend to COMPLETELY overlook most English mistakes as long as whats being said is understandable. There´s a point at which one admits that one CAN speak/write a language, and as far as I know, every non-native English speaker on the this forum who post frequently is far, far above that point.

For my own part, I say I CAN speak Norwegian, but the thing that holds ME back is that I´m a natural mumbler so I freak out in social situations for fear that folk won´t understand or will take it for "bad norwegian" (it´s happened many times!)

Quote from: davdud101 on Jun 10, 2016, 02:03AMI´ll tell you from most of the Norwegians I know... some Norwegians take NORWEGIAN really seriously

Den norske språkstriden is most likely also beyond the scope of the conversation. 

QuoteBut in all honesty, I (as many Americans) tend to COMPLETELY overlook most English mistakes as long as whats being said is understandable.

Economic and cultural hegemony aside, I think that's what drives the popularity of English. Let's face it, speakers of some languages (and I'm thinking of a couple of common Romance languages in particular) can be absurdly intolerant of foreign accents and idioms, even (okay, especially) when the foreigners are native speakers of the language.

Quote from: Eastcheap on Jun 10, 2016, 03:57PMLet's face it, speakers of some languages (and I'm thinking of a couple of common Romance languages in particular) can be absurdly intolerant of foreign accents and idioms, even (okay, especially) when the foreigners are native speakers of the language.

I've heard that of France but didn't have enough words to even try it.  In Germany they were very tolerant of my attempts to speak German.  Of course, I had no choice, and there were a few incidents where there was a reason they pretended to not understand.  My boss had an interesting theory.  Most of our employees didn't speak English though the supervisors had some.  Anyway, he told me he tried to always mumble a bit when he spoke German.  He said if he mumbled they usually did what he wanted, but if he spoke really clearly sometimes they did what he said literally, and ended up not what he intended.