TromboneChat

Someone sent me a video of a gig I did before lockdown here in GB. Art Baron mentions in an article about plunger/pixie/non parallel mute playing that "it can really kick your ass". He's right! I posted this because it looks like I'm having a heart attack!!!!! Do you think there are certain types of players who are more suitable for this kind of playing and if so...what type of player?

I didn´t think of a heart attack at all! I think it was a fun gig and you having a ball! I like it!
Keep it going!

Hahaha! thank you. I thought I was redder than the sign behind me!!

Yeah there's that story of Tricky Sam's tuning slide shooting off the back of his horn during a pixie plunger solo...

I think that is in the same article written by Bob Bernotas

Someone once mentioned that instead of a pixie, you can use a (more readily available) trumpet straight mute behind a plunger.

Tried this? How'd it go? Any advice?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:58 pm Someone once mentioned that instead of a pixie, you can use a (more readily available) trumpet straight mute behind a plunger.

Tried this? How'd it go? Any advice?

This was actually mentioned in the article by Art Baron. You use something called a "Non-Pareil". I'm not sure if they are made any more, but I found an aluminum mute that looks pretty similar.

You have to build out the corks a bit.

It won't work with a large bore or even many medium bores, so forget about using it with a Bach 42.

Response to notes within the bass staff is pretty bad. You have to limit yourself to notes on top of or above the bass staff.

It's easily as stuffy as the Pixie, if not more.

But it's what Tricky Sam Nanton used.

Hi Posaunus, there are more qualified people than me who can point you in the right direction but I am happy to give you my opinion and share my thoughts.

Firstly, Art Baron with whom I had a very productive couple of lessons (look him up, he's a plunger master still very much with us and worked with Duke) says he was taught by Quinten Jackson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quentin_Jackson....... to use a trumpet mute from the nineteen thirties called a "Non Parellel" . It's a tin mute and gives the most authentic sound for "ya ya" playing. Ya ya being the sound that Tricky Sam made in the Ellington band back in the thirties and forties. However, Lawrence Brown who was also a long time member of the Ellington Orchestra used a pixie mute made by Humes and Berg.


Here are a few of the issues: 1. Using a non parellel mute with a plunger means you can only play from a middle B flat upwards. The notes don't sound below a middle B flat very well. This limits you to about an octave and a third. This worked perfectly well for Tricky Sam who was able to say everthing he wanted within this range. Lawrence Brown used a pixie with his plunger. You can use this combination right across the range of the instrument. 2. Using a pixie you can play in a variety of styles....Tricky Sam's style, Al Grey's style to name the two most well known. 3. Quinten Jackson advised Art Baron to adapt his positions when using the trumpet mute/ plunger mute combination, however, I have seen footage of Lawrence Brown pulling his tuning slide out to compensate for the tuning issues involved when using the two mutes (pixie/or the non parellel mute plus plunger make you super sharp) You choose. I will say this. I have screwed up a few times forgetting to put my tuning slide in for the next tune and sounded pretty awful until I remembered !!!! Here's a great article that helped me a long time ago by Bob Bernotas who interviewed Art Baron: https://www.trombone.org/articles/view.php?id=14. Check out Tyree Glenn playing Mood Indigo with Louis This might help too.... And this....

FYI: a non-pariel works fantastic on some horns, I’ve also taken a couple of trumpet and flugel adjustable cup and practice mutes and just removed the cup part.
Each sounds different, and has a different range.
The size and shape of the mute make a HUGE difference.
The Wallace flugel (no)cup has the easiest blow and best range, the Yamaha trumpet (non)cup is my most overall comfortable, all different on different horns.
When I’m using any of those I just push the tuning slide all the way in and go by ear, partial overtones are different, but once you figure it out your usual patterns will make sense.

That sounds like great information! Thanks for sharing! This is stuff I did not know. I do know, however, I will stay with the pixie/plunger combination.......I am too mean to spend money on new stuff !!!!

Tom Crown makes a version of the non-pareil (link below). It's not quite the same as the original, but it's close; it's what I use. I've sat next to Art on many big band gigs, and it has his approval. Before that, I used a fiber trumpet straight mute, and it sounded good too.

Word of warning - not all trumpet straight mutes fit into a trombone bell. I made the mistake of buying a normal Tom Crown, only to find it was the wrong shape. I didn't need to build up the corks on the non-pareil at all for my horn (a 3B).

For me, the pixie is a somewhat different sound, more like Al Grey (whom I also love). The pixie lets you play in a wider range, but there's a certain rasp to the non-pareil that gives you that authentic Ellington plunger sound.

BTW, I move the tuning slide rather than adjust the slide positions; for me that works better.

https://www.amazon.com/Tom-Crown-Trumpe ... B000RLF8JU

More great info, thank you Rick. Do say hi from me (Jeff Williams) next time you see Art. My daughter and I had a lovely hang with him back in 2019 in NYC. I’m going to see if I can find footage of Lawrence Brown playing some plunger. I think it’s relevant because he sat next to Tricky Sam for some years and as well as his breath taking open horn work, had a real voice on the plunger and pixie! Getting back to my original question which was: does the set up suit certain kinds of players than others? My own opinion....for what it is worth....is that good lead players and people with a strong classical technique probably find it easier than others. It requires s*it loads of air!

Here is Lawrence Brown playing the Mooche. Absolutely stunning! I think one of the all time great plunger solos! He comes in at 5.30 but do yourselves a favour and watch the whole thing....it’s a treat! As Rick says above, definitely a different sound to the plunger/trumpet mute combination. I should try and find Butter Jackson’s version who did play his plunger with a trumpet mute. It’s equally amazing but with a very different sound and feel.

Quinton Jackson’s version (have I spelt his name correctly) He comes in at 2.48. Again, so full of drama but with a very different sound!

jeffreywilliamwilliams wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:43 am More great info, thank you Rick. Do say hi from me (Jeff Williams) next time you see Art. My daughter and I had a lovely hang with him back in 2019 in NYC.

I will! Art is a great guy, one of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

My understanding is that Lawrence never really wanted to play the plunger parts, but was persuaded to by Duke. His approach is definitely less gutbucket than Tricky Sam's.

To your original question, I think the main thing necessary is the ability to move your air. Beyond that, I don't think a specific background is required. I know great plunger players who have classical training, and others who don't. It does take more air, but I guess at this point I'm used to it!

Here's a pic of me playing with Art and Clarence Banks, probably around the time you were working with him. Bass trombone was Joe Randazzo, who sadly has passed away since this was taken. That section was a joy to play with!

Booty Wood is often overlooked among Ellington plunger players, but I've loved this solo (apparently his first venture on plunger) since I was a kid:

Yup Art is a sweetie! I totally agree about the air. Thats why I suggested that lead players and classical players do good plunger work. People who have been taught how to breath properly!! Nice photo you put up!! Hope Art is keeping well!!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:58 pm Someone once mentioned that instead of a pixie, you can use a (more readily available) trumpet straight mute behind a plunger.

Tried this? How'd it go? Any advice?

I have a Harmon combo mute for my trumpet (straight with detachable cup), and the straight mute part works as a pixie in my large and small tenors with no modification.

I have the Harmon Triple Play trumpet mute and found that the straight part went so far into the bell of my large bore it was difficult to retrieve. Also went far enough into my small bore tenor that insertion and removal were tricky. Don't know if that still applies to the modified Non-Pareil or Harmon Triple Play straight since I didn't want to modify mine.