TromboneChat

I'm a former pro trombonist (Air Force bands), now have a day job and play in "select amateur" groups, mostly unpaid. I belong to 2 big bands (used to be 3). Whenever these groups perform, the audience is tiny, composed of friends and family exclusively. A few "townies" may be there at the start but will eventually wander away. Audience attentiveness seems indifferent. Advance publicity has always been quite good. Have Americans stopped caring about this music, or is this purely a regional problem? (New England). The level of playing is certainly decent.

On a related note, I'm also in a couple of community orchestras. I worry about the pool of players "aging out" and no backfills coming in from younger players. Young people around here spend their spare time on video games mostly, some sports, and since there is no longer any real prospect to studying music as a profession, they quit playing their horns after HS unless they take a band elective in college. HS and college music teachers are not bringing students with them to rehearsals anymore.
I'm generalizing of course but that's the trend, regionally anyway. Who is going to replace us in these fine community groups? Prospects look bleak. Anyone else feel the same?

Absolutely, Mac. I'm seeing the same trend in south Jersey, your old stompin' grounds.
One of the (unpaid) groups that I play in is a wind ensemble made up of mostly semi-pros, former pros, and retired music teachers. The group dates back about 50 years; our current conductor has been with the group for +/- 45 years. He is professor emeritus of the U. of Delaware, and is now in his upper 70's. We play a variety of challenging and entertaining music.
The majority of the band has been there for many years - I joined about 20 years ago; our low brass section has not changed in at least 15 years.
So - we are definitely aging out. The "young" members are in their 40's, and the vast majority of them were recruited by our conductor, former students who played under him at U.D. and want to keep their chops up.
Our "gigs" are dwindling, our audiences are dwindling. The venues that have an ongoing weekly concert series are where we have the best crowds. (Such as they are) Our conductor spends many hours on emails and phone calls to line up concerts; not too many years back he was the one receiving the calls.
It is sad, indeed. But I'm glad to have the opportunity, I often think to myself that my current private students will probably not have the chance to continue because of where the industry is heading.

HS teachers used to take their students to rehearsals?

Maybe it's just a different time, but I feel like any administration would not let that fly. The amount of hoops i have to jump through just to get into a school these days is kind of crazy. But also, I understand why they do it.

I don't have an answer to your question, and I don't feel comfortable speculating about a community that i know very little about. So I'll just not say anything

Also in MA, here, the hot spots seem to be the senior centers. The audience knows the music (at least for now) and the band form.

I worry that the old guys are almost gone now, the ones with contemporary experience. There seems to be a kind of momentum keeping it going in some places, like the mil bands, LA, maybe a couple other places.

This being said, there's a lot of music that now seems to me in most places to be unplayable, no matter how pro the band. Individually guys can rip through the parts, but the band part is often forgotten.

The best times I have these days are at the senior centers playing in tunes bands. Even that seems to be aging out, though, as even among people older than me the memory of the melodies is fading.

That's what I see also. Fewer community groups, and around here the weekly summer concert in the park has vanished.
The players are aging out and the audiences already have, except for those captive in nursing homes.

Another factor might be demographics. A lot of the music in those amateur bands was written by dead white guys and played by old white guys, and that mix has changed in a lot of areas.

Thanks for the inputs guys. Though of course I wish it was more encouraging!
Yes, JLivi, there used to be a more innocent time when HS band directors would swing by a promising student's house and give them a ride to a community wind ensemble to broaden their experience. One band teacher brought a whole Suburban full of his band kids to community wind ensemble rehearsals, circa 1972. It was conducted by a college prof so they did things no HS band was doing at the time. Members would also bring their own talented children along; haven't seen that in many years.

Not only are prospects looking bleak going forward, but where are the "voices" that will be raised to try and keep these traditions alive? They are probably very senior too. As timothy42b says, it's become a geriatric context. The average age in my bands and orchestras has got to be over 55. My big bands probably average about 70.

Even those federally funded stalwarts, the military bands, are dwindling. There are major and permanent cuts every 18-22 years. If the general public has less interest than ever in Sousa and Glenn Miller, what makes us think the generals would feel any different? They allocate the funding.

Yes and no. The community band is strong in Wichita, Kansas and we get younger players who stick as well as elementary, middle school, and high school directors and retirees. Sometimes the big bands draw and sometimes not. Wichita, Salina, Hayes, and Newton all have semi pro orchestra ensembles. Paid players with day jobs and higher level teachers and professors as section leaders.

The US Army Jazz Ambassadors and USAF Airman of
Note are standing room only, almost anywhere they play in Kansas.

I was pulled out of a civilian supplier company to go play big band for the generals when we returned one of the Air Force One’s to the 89th AF Squadron, and President George Bush, who also showed up for the occasion. It was more along the lines of program depot maintenance than a phase check. Security was pretty tight. The generals demanded it. Somebody likes it.

Without being unrealistic, we have a responsibility to promote it where we can. We should be on the lookout for opportunities to play and make “friends” whenever possible.

Sorry guys, but Big Band and jazz aren't what the kids are listening to. That's just a fact. Since, like, 1980.

Jazz for me is the one that I don't get. It's turned into an art form for artists to wow other artists. The audience is left out most of the time. No wonder it isn't popular or main stream.

If your entire audience consists of other jazz musicians or trombonists, etc, you're not mainstream. What should we do?

Yes! Here in the Netherlands, you'll see the same: the local wind bands (every town has one) are aging. A few of them merged or stopped. However, young musicians do like to play, mostly in 'American' brass bands, as we call them here. Like lucky chops and young blood etc. Some even play on festivals in between mayor acts, and the crowd goes wild..

Ted wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:14 am Yes! Here in the Netherlands, you'll see the same: the local wind bands (every town has one) are aging. A few of them merged or stopped. However, young musicians do like to play, mostly in 'American' brass bands, as we call them here. Like lucky chops and young blood etc. Some even play on festivals in between mayor acts, and the crowd goes wild..

The key with the "American Brass Bands" is that a lot of the rep consists of covers or arrangements of current popular tunes that you can hear on the radio. They can still play it with their own style, and throw solos in, and it works.

It's what our band does in Japan. We play American rock tunes from the 80s, Japanese tunes that are relatively current, and throw in a few true New Orleans tunes -- it's very popular with people no matter where we go. People in Mongolia were rocking out to the theme from "Demon Slayer", (LiSA's "Gurenge") and they were loving it.

FWIW, we arranged this tune:

Great to read about how brass players are adapting more contemporary music to their repertoire. Some excellent groups are also adding "gimmicks" (funny attire, no stands or chairs onstage/memorized music, "schtick" routines) to gain and hold audiences, like Mnozil brass does. As a purist, I don't think accomplished players should have to pander to that level, but whatever works and keeps the paychecks coming.
Niche groups like Chestnut Brass with their antique instruments are definitely cool, but any more than one such group is copycatting, so that's limited.

Yes, some aging community groups will have to close or merge, like the AFM locals themselves are doing these days.
Perhaps there are too many out there anyway. How many bands have been started simply because of ego? IOW, somebody got disgusted and went off to start their own band? May the best band win...

Harrisonreed, yes, the last hurrah for young people being interested in the big band/jazz genre in America was late 1970s to 1980 or so. Chuck Mangione, Bill Watrous, Maynard, etc were all in their heyday. Tonight show band too.

I also tend to think that mainstream jazz itself has been taken WAY too seriously in recent decades, by (ironically) mostly white players. It was a style that was originated by blacks who were just having some fun getting together with their horns. Leave it to educated whites to overanalyze and mutate it to some kind of intellectual challenge to the hearer.

i think it also matters that music education has been gutted and defunded across much of the nation.

This was already an observed problem when I doing community bands and orchestras in the 90s... the audiences were just family and friends. If you wanted more that that you had to go crash an event like an Oktoberfest or 4th of July fair that had people who were tired on their feet and were eager to sit for a spell.

But the ensembles themselves could not draw a crowd on their own reknown.

There is too much competition for ears. Why traipse out to a high school gym to hear the local community orchestra when there is a professional orchestra in town?

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:22 am i think it also matters that music education has been gutted and defunded across much of the nation.

I attribute the decline of funding of music and PE to school board members who, in their youth, were students of these programs and had mostly unpleasant memories to call up about them. The programs did little for them and they recognize that.

Meanwhile they have a third of their student body that isn't passing basic reading and math goals. Where to spend the money?

Maybe this is what community bands need to do in order to draw a crowd.

I received advertising from our local professional symphony’s upcoming season.It’s full of movie tie-ins, pops, and minor celebs. Nothing caught my eye. It made me wonder why we bother with a symphony.

Meanwhile, in the two amateur orchs I play in we will be doing Beethoven 9 and Missa Solemnis, Tchaik 5, and Shostakovich 5.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:49 am I received advertising from our local professional symphony’s upcoming season.It’s full of movie tie-ins, pops, and minor celebs. Nothing caught my eye. It made me wonder why we bother with a symphony.

Meanwhile, in the two amateur orchs I play in we will be doing Beethoven 9 and Missa Solemnis, Tchaik 5, and Shostakovich 5.

I get and appreciate what you're saying, Bach 5G. I would prefer playing (and in many cases listening to) classics from the Classical and Romantic periods also, although anything by John Williams is always a blast! The amateur orchestra I play in also does more "serious" music; for example in recent years we have done Brahm's 1st; William Tell Overture, and Schubert's 9th. (Our conductor is the principal bassoonist with the Phila Orchestra)
But we musicians are not the audience that the professional orchestras need to reach in order to keep afloat. I suspect they are sacrificing and doing what they have to in order to sell the tickets.

We often try to do both. Before the intermission a more classical repertoire, and after more pops and jazzy stuff.

Mamaposaune wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:33 am Maybe this is what community bands need to do in order to draw a crowd.

That was ... corny ?

We’ve also had success with more modern music including a program of contemporary Latin American music, with one of the composers conducting his piece.

I haven’t seen much contemporary orch music at the pro level over the past few years (unless you count Harry Potter).

Idea I've plugged before here...

A recurringly successful way of making a classical piece a popular hit is for it to be in a movie. Endless examples.

Some umbrella organization of professional orchestras like the American Orchestra League should get a budget from its members to hire an agent/s tasked with getting classical pieces into movies and tv series. The benefit to the members won't have the direct payoff that a "product placement" of a soft drink or a car does but if they could manufacture just one or two hits a year over ten years that would be a significant body of audience attention-grabbers to draw from as they plan their seasons.

This will never happen, of course.

Mamaposaune and others - it does seem like bands/orchestras feel the need to "roll out" another "meet the instruments" type of presentation again every once in a while. Or at least a splashy section feature. To remind people of where this tradition comes from and why we still love it. Does it help? Probably less than it once did.

Seeking to remain viable by pursuing "excellence for the sake of excellence" sounds noble but won't work. It's been proven.
A virtuoso blacksmith is better than an everyday blacksmith, but who actually wants one? Not many do. That's what is eroding the military bands. Sure, most if not all sound great, but who under age 85 is gonna dig that repertoire?

Perhaps it was the advent of MTV, but today's music is a visual art form as much as it is an aural form. I was reminded of this with Christian Lindberg's performance at the ITF.

Music that is only heard... is now routinely ignored.

--Andy in OKC

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:19 pm
A virtuoso blacksmith is better than an everyday blacksmith, but who actually wants one? Not many do. That's what is eroding the military bands. Sure, most if not all sound great, but who under age 85 is gonna dig that repertoire?

I've been to a huge number of ceremonies supported by Army bands. (30 years as a civilian, expected though not technically required to be present)
Sometimes for a change of command of very high rank the full band would play.
That's maybe once every 2 or 3 years.
The other few hundred performances were all small groups - 4 or 5 piece subgroups of the main body.

People addressing inequities in government spending will often point to the fact that the US military band budget dwarfs the budget for The National Endowment for the Arts.

In the 1980s I think the band budget was about 10x the NEA. After cuts to both, the band budget is still 2-3x what the NEA gets.

On the one hand, it's probably hard to justify that imbalance to anyone not in the military and on the other, I suspect something that has made the recent cuts to band spending in the Defense budgets possible is that more recent generations who have little love for traditional band culture or its cost are rising to command positions in the military and also recent ex-military are taking seats in Congress.

timothy 42B, when I started in with the Air Force (1980s) we used the entire concert band or the entire marching band on lots of things. Some were downright silly. We used the whole marching band for everyday Retreat! That's when the honor guard takes the base flag down at the end of the day and we played Taps and a couple marches and the SSB. What extravagant use of live music since maybe 20 or 30 people would notice it.
We also would squeeze the whole symphonic band into the Officer's club for "floor shows" before breaking down to 18 piece dance band after dinner. Unheard of today - lots of small groups now instead.

robcat2075, all true. As I said, who has "love for band culture" anymore that is under age 85? The band commanders have also "done it to themselves" by refusing to update ensemble and repertoire formats beyond the original comfy 1950s music education paradigm. Except they did add separate rock combos years ago.

To today's recruits, even the rock bands probably sound like grandpa music.

That's gotta be the case. Pop tunes in recent times are full of bad language and use rap a lot. Not the image the AF wants to project, so rock combos became "golden oldies" groups.

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:39 am That's gotta be the case. Pop tunes in recent times are full of bad language and use rap a lot. Not the image the AF wants to project, so rock combos became "golden oldies" groups.

Throughout all time, the current popular music has been full of bad words and basically spawned from Satan. There is nothing inherently wrong with rap, at least. Lots of concerts we've done have included rapping. Obviously the AF can't be spewing out obscenities, though.

The only time the service bands weren't playing the oldies was when Glenn Miller (at the time the musician with the most record sales) joined the "Air Force" (Army) and kept on pumping out music.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:36 am

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:39 am That's gotta be the case. Pop tunes in recent times are full of bad language and use rap a lot. Not the image the AF wants to project, so rock combos became "golden oldies" groups.

Throughout all time, the current popular music has been full of bad words and basically spawned from Satan. There is nothing inherently wrong with rap, at least. Obviously the AF can't be spewing out obscenities, though.

The only time the service bands weren't playing the oldies was when Glen Miller (at the time the musician with the most record sales) joined the Air Force and kept on pumping out music.

And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now?

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:40 am ...
And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now?

Yeah. Parse out the lyrics to "Chattanooga Choo Choo" some time -- especially the opening verse. The singer is talking to someone running a shoe shine stand. I probably don't have to specify what race the shoe shine "boy" was.

Parse out the lyrics to "Chattanooga Choo Choo" some time -- especially the opening verse. The singer is talking to someone running a shoe shine stand. I probably don't have to specify what race the shoe shine "boy" was.

Not to mention the Fillmore trombone "collection", based on black minstrelsy. I think the service bands finally wised up and stopped playing Lassus et al. What on earth could you put in the program notes about that piece? How do you explain the title? Not worth it.
All eras had raunchy songs, even if you had to look around for them. The difference nowadays is that you don't have to look, they are on FM radio every day!

I still like some of the tunes in the Fillmore Trombone Family, although I really cringe when I read the subtitles.

Minstrel music was popular for about 50 years ending a century ago. I'm glad that attitude has gone. But there seem to be some who would like to see it return.

There are some great tunes from the Minstrel era. Think of Stephen Foster, for example.

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:21 am Not to mention the Fillmore trombone "collection", based on black minstrelsy. I think the service bands finally wised up and stopped playing Lassus et al. What on earth could you put in the program notes about that piece? How do you explain the title? Not worth it...

So in an effort to cure my own ignorance, I looked into it and found this article by Douglas Yeo https://thelasttrombone.com/2020/06/28/ ... -trombone/
His follow-up article is linked there as well. I found both articles very educational and a bit shocking.

Interesting thread!

I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?
It seems like this is a global problem then. Maybe an exception is South Korea and Japan because I've heard that jazz is "cool" over there.

Where I live we can no longer recruit swedish brass players to fill chairs in pro orchestras after musicians that retire. The music education system does not produce musicians as it used to. In the early 80ies it was different when Christian Lindberg (trombone) and Håkan Hardenberger (trumpet) graduated. Back then competition was very high, but now both audience and players interested in wind bands and/or jazz bands has decreased to almost nothing.

/Tom

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:36 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:40 am ...
And some of those lyrics in the Miller tunes.... well, oh my they said what now?

Yeah. Parse out the lyrics to "Chattanooga Choo Choo" some time -- especially the opening verse. The singer is talking to someone running a shoe shine stand. I probably don't have to specify what race the shoe shine "boy" was.

It's not as clear as all that. I have noticed in old movies and radio shows that any man in a non-professional occupation can get called "boy".

The white elevator operator... "Ask the boy if he saw anything suspicious..."
The white telegram deliverer... "Should I tell the boy to wait for a reply?"
The boys in the band
The boys in the army

A lot of adult men were getting called "boy" back then.

I think the wide usage declined after WWII and as whites generally abandoned the service occupations we were left with older southern whites still calling the black men in those jobs "boy".

imsevimse wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:13 pm
I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?

Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.

They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.

The saving grace is things like Disneyland where concert band, marching band, and Dixieland styles are presented in an easily digestible form (by extremely talented artists). Maybe we need more such applications.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:06 pm The saving grace is things like Disneyland where concert band, marching band, and Dixieland styles are presented in an easily digestible form (by extremely talented artists). Maybe we need more such applications.

Unfortunately (but inevitably) Disneyland has also cut back on the number / size of their performing ensembles.

Ask BurgerBob!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:14 pm Unfortunately (but inevitably) Disneyland has also cut back on the number / size of their performing ensembles.

Ask BurgerBob!

I have fond memories from the 80's and early 90's of the Future Corps at Epcot! What an amazing group! Sadly, they are gone.

--Andy in OKC.

Last I heard, Disney is far too crowded and expensive. It's sad about the bands, but people seem to barely be having a good time waiting for hours just to ride one ride. I can't imagine that the live music is even on their radar.

I remember being able to go around several times and rude the same ride over and over with no line. The last pics I saw had lines going around the lake.

I can imagine, "I didn't spend $5000 on tickets, parking, fast passes, and hotel rooms, just to wait in line all day for two rides and then settle for some wind band music."

So timing has worked out for me. I retired form my day job and went back to music school at the community college. During COVID the school really had no outlet for these younger musicians to get out and really rehearse and play.

I also co-manage an 18 piece big band. We perform in public one to three times a month (Tap houses, retirement communities, private events). These younger college musicians are doing great and we anticipate being able to hand the management of the band over to some of them in a few years as they finish school.

We have a longer term vision for the group than the retired pros and seasoned amateurs in the area. We also stray from the classic swing tunes. Last month a sub group put together a jazz fusion cub I and played during the intermission for the big band. We try and add a different combo or solo act during intermissions. .

It works for us.

.
Re: use of "Boy"

Jack Benny Show Jan 31 1937

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:02 pm
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.

They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.

Definitely agree with this one. I was a product of the junior high/high school system of a midsized town in Arizona. We competed against Phoenix and Tucson area marching bands in the early 2000s. At that point we were usually fielding 140 people after ineligibles. Small compared to the division one bands, but a decent size. Now, my old high school band is lucky to have 35 to 40 on the field, and it is the same way for all of the other high schools in the area…and it is quite difficult to listen too…

The only thing I can think of is a general lack of interest in performing in a society based around the next quick trend. Devoting the time and energy to become good at what you’re doing takes a tremendous amount of discipline and and focus. It just seems the ability to have that focus for a single tasks is seemingly becoming a thing of the past…

atopper333 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:23 am …and it is quite difficult to listen too…

Yup.

I'm sure cases like this are not rare...

Thank you Robert!!!
Uniforms? Check!
Instruments? Check!
Audience? Check!
Number of musicians? Check!
Camera? Check!
Internet? Check!
Cheerleaders? Check!

Well, I could not help. I laughed. Hope it is more about music in other bands. I have great admiration of American musicians. Most of my jazz-heroes are americans (but a few Swedes are also on my list ) I can see there are both high and low in your country, the same as here.

/Tom

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:29 am

atopper333 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:23 am …and it is quite difficult to listen too…

Yup.

I'm sure cases like this are not rare...

Oh my………….

Man, this ain’t that bad…. With this recording, even a good band would sound terrible.

Sure, there’s some intonation troubles… I’m not going to try to guess if it is 20 degrees warmer when they were marching than when they warmed up on this day.

Kids are trying and they are having fun, not sure what they did to get a label of “worst” band. They aren’t the worst by a mile…. Go find one of the bands of kids that aren’t trying and don’t want to be there.

Back on topic, for any band in any place, what almost matter more than skill or style is building a relationship with the audience. Audiences want things to succeed, if they feel connected, they’ll come back. Talk to them between numbers. Give them an opportunity to feel like they know you. Be in consistent places and have low barriers to entry. In my community summer group, our donation box for free summer concerts often brings in more than the admission to paid gigs. Go out where the people are, play and get them used to you being there.

My 0.02… y’all probably deserve some change on that,
Andy

Don't bag on the kids. They are doing their best.