TromboneChat

Does somebody know why Conn don‘t use Hagmann valves as stock option? In my opinion it would make a lot of sense and the horns would be great sounding and playing.

And with tuning In slide it's even better.

meine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:49 am Does somebody know why Conn don‘t use Hagmann valves as stock option? In my opinion it would make a lot of sense and the horns would be great sounding and playing.

Well, they have their own proprietary CL2000 valve, which is a very good design. Also the standard rotors they use are actually relatively free blowing and well made. John Lofton of the LA Philharmonic plays a Conn 62HI, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't look to be heavily modded.

Conn is not the premiere brand under that umbrella- I think a more upscale option would cannibalize sales from Bach, the top dog.

Also costs a lot of time and money to prototype and R&D a new horn that might not sell. Notice how many useless Bach models are still around with tiny rotors?

The CL2000 is good, but the Hagmann should work better with Conn‘s. I have some, so I can confirm that

Maybe it would be better fir Conn to leave the Selmer or whatever company…

They are too busy releasing models that nobody wants, like the $5600 Steiner model (Bach) and the $3500 88HNV.

meine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:59 pm Maybe it would be better fir Conn to leave the Selmer or whatever company…

That would be like Maggi leaving Nestlé. It's just a sub brand.

meine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:59 pm Maybe it would be better fir Conn to leave the Selmer or whatever company…

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:50 am Conn is not the premiere brand under that umbrella- I think a more upscale option would cannibalize sales from Bach, the top dog.

The correct brand to spin off from Conn-Selmer in this case would in fact be Bach (think then-Fiat-Chrysler spinning off Ferrari as a reference). But that's not going to happen. So, Conn is stuck with designs introduced in the early 2000s (current 62H(I/CL)). And someone remind me when they introduced the 110H and 112H...

Also costs a lot of time and money to prototype and R&D a new horn that might not sell. Notice how many useless Bach models are still around with tiny rotors?

What I think they should do — and I feel I'm not alone here — since Bach is the premium brand, is replace the (totally not sacred) stock valves on the 50B with the King valves OR introduce a "50B3OF" with the Meinlschmidt open flow valves. Of course, I doubt either will happen, and certainly not the former.

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:33 pm
What I think they should do — and I feel I'm not alone here — since Bach is the premium brand, is replace the (totally not sacred) stock valves on the 50B with the King valves OR introduce a "50B3OF" with the Meinlschmidt open flow valves. Of course, I doubt either will happen, and certainly not the former.

I agree... but it costs a lot less to just keep making what they're making, especially when schools keep buying them. At least I can only assume that's the driving force behind keeping them around.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:42 pmI agree... but it costs a lot less to just keep making what they're making, especially when schools keep buying them. At least I can only assume that's the driving force behind keeping them around.

I'm just amazed that they can still get the prices they do for the "regular" Bach trombones compared to the Conn trombones, which have better valves but cost LESS. Though with some school districts they pretty much "Blank check" the instrument acquisition.

Conn-Selmer is pretty much run these days using the corporate mentality, which means they make what sells. If items are selling fine, they really don't see a need to innovate. This of course leads to stagnation, but honestly all of the brand names under the Conn Selmer umbrella are like that.

At least it's better than what happened with Olds...

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:10 pm They are too busy releasing models that nobody wants, like the $5600 Steiner model (Bach) and the $3500 88HNV.

meine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:59 pm Maybe it would be better fir Conn to leave the Selmer or whatever company…

That would be like Maggi leaving Nestlé. It's just a sub brand.

Not to distract too much from the original topic, but what makes you say nobody wants the Steiner model ? Is it selling poorly ? If so, how poorly ?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:50 am Conn is not the premiere brand under that umbrella- I think a more upscale option would cannibalize sales from Bach, the top dog.

Well; Conn charges a little over $8000 for a new 62HCL YB and I don't consider that price to display any hints of Conn being regarded as an underdog.

I do think, though, that the instrument manufacturing business gradually is collapsing, and because of that is confused and disoriented. With all the synthesized instruments available today, combined with better and better AI capabilities of playing those artificial sounds human-like, there is a slow and gradual decrease in the need for professional instruments, and that is slowly beginning to show.

Digidog wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:36 pm

Well; Conn charges a little over $8000 for a new 62HCL YB and I don't consider that price to display any hints of Conn being regarded as an underdog.

I do think, though, that the instrument manufacturing business gradually is collapsing, and because of that is confused and disoriented. With all the synthesized instruments available today, combined with better and better AI capabilities of playing those artificial sounds human-like, there is a slow and gradual decrease in the need for professional instruments, and that is slowly beginning to show.

You only have to look at any horns minus the CL models- Conn is not regarded as the premiere brand over there.

And I can't agree about instrument manufacturing and the death of live music... that same spiel has been said since the dawn of time at this point.

meine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:59 pm The CL2000 is good, but the Hagmann should work better with Conn‘s. I have some, so I can confirm that

Maybe it would be better fir Conn to leave the Selmer or whatever company…

Until you have an instrument built with Hagmann valves you can't confirm the instrument will be better. You might like the valve better but you have to build it to prove. Let us know when you're finished. We'd love a review.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:34 am You only have to look at any horns minus the CL models- Conn is not regarded as the premiere brand over there.

And I can't agree about instrument manufacturing and the death of live music... that same spiel has been said since the dawn of time at this point.

So the 88H also is more of a budget horn?

Being obnoxiuos aside: I know what you mean, but I don't see it that clearly, and I don't see very much pricing differences - in Europe - to distinguish them as one or the other.

What I said isn't that live music is dying or dead, I'm saying that the demographics of who plays what is changing rapidly, and the instrument manufacturers are trying to accept and adapt. The professional musician is not who it once was, and that change is going faster and faster. As I read the circumstances, this new situation is confusing to large companies, and I connect that to a lot of poor marketing choices of many large manufacturers, such as Conn-Selmer. If I'm right or wrong, is up for debate.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:28 am

meine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:59 pm The CL2000 is good, but the Hagmann should work better with Conn‘s. I have some, so I can confirm that

Maybe it would be better fir Conn to leave the Selmer or whatever company…

Until you have an instrument built with Hagmann valves you can't confirm the instrument will be better. You might like the valve better but you have to build it to prove. Let us know when you're finished. We'd love a review.

Well, they do have several heavily customized horns with Conn Bells, but I agree that they haven't really got much in the way of evidence of things except that they really like Hagmann valves, and think them superior to all other valve designs. With the instruments they are using I don't know if they have even had a chance to compare the current production valves with the Hagmann valves. They did have a "prototype" with CL200 valves and sold it, but it was independent, whereas they seem to favor single valve and dependent setups.

See their other thread: https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29021

They also posted here https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29279

I actually could make a review in 2009 I got a Conn 88HOSGX with standart open wrap valve section. I played very nice, but lacked some things. The difference in the feeling of the airflow between engaged and not engaged valve was significant, the engaged side was not so easy to controll and the sound was good, but not that what I was looking for.
The Hagmann valves changes the horn dramatically! It opened it up to a free blowing broad sounding monster which is, in my opinion, the best tenor trombone I‘ve ever tried. The airflow is free,open and even with and wirhout engaged valve. I could push the horn as much as I could, it never became bad sounding or nor playable. And I did that in british styled brassband.

Of course I understand Conn-Selmer. The want to have Bach as their top brand and Conn as their „hey-Bach-is-too-expensive-let‘s-take-a-Conn“ like brand. In terms of sale a good working idea I guess, but not so good for the quality of Conn and the development of Bach. Peter Steiner was the first to devolop something new with Bach as much as I know (by the way, interesting to see Peter return to Bach after playing Thein). I guess it would be better for Conn and Bach too if they would be competitors on the instrument market.

Thein would be a tough company to try and promote for. The horns are unbelievably expensive.

Yes they are. For the bass trombones I have to say I‘ve tried a lot of different brands, but there is no one that good like a Thein. The only one which is very close to it is the Williams 10.
But you‘re right, they are difficult to promote.

meine wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:06 pm Yes they are. For the bass trombones I have to say I‘ve tried a lot of different brands, but there is no one that good like a Thein. The only one which is very close to it is the Williams 10.
But you‘re right, they are difficult to promote.

Which makes it sort of odd if their new American model bass is meant to appeal to the states. That price is just too big of a barrier, assuming it's right up there with their standard basses.

I’m not that old, and I can remember a time when Conn and Bach were seen not as rivals, per se, but as tools that represented different schools or traditions of playing. As teachers at different schools came and went, the type of horn changed with them. At Eastman under Remington, everyone—EVERYONE—played a Conn. At Julliard, when Alessi first started playing with NY Phil, everyone played a Bach.

I’m sure it was a similar story in Europe. Prof. X plays a Y horn, so if you study in Vienna, you play Y horn. Prof. M in Berlin plays an N, so you buy an N horn to study with him. Etc…

I understand the marketing and advertising ploy, but like most drivel peddle by corporate/capitalist America (and other countries; after all, “The world is becoming Southern California”), it’s only partly true, i.e., mostly false.

Conns are GREAT horns, just a different flavor than Bach. Edwards are great horns, just a different flavor than Shires. Kings are great horns, just different… you get the picture.

I’d love to have the money to buy an M&W, a Stephens, a Thein, etc. Different flavors or colors for different sounds and player feedback. I’d still sound like me, and I might be more familiar with a Bach or a Bach-like horn, but the horns are different, not better. I wouldn’t want to be a bassoonist—I’d have to choose between a Püchner or a Renard, and bassoons ain’t cheap!

Vive la différence!

I started off on a Conn because that's what my brass band had, styled on the british bands I started on 48H elkhart constellation and absolutely loved it. When I was 15 I was moved onto 1st and was made play an 88H but I didn't like the large bore but hey I had no say in the matter. I was always Conn, Conn, Conn....... I tried a Bach 42B once and hated it. Bought my own 88H years later but it was an absolute lemon, slide wasn't even parallel. I kept bringing it to repairmen and being told it was fine until a tech loosened and resoldered the brace an the handslide and moved it (I kid you not!) 4mm. I practised my a$$ off on that instrument and played on many solo competitions putting any discrepancies down to myself and it wasn't until I played on a Rath (which I haven't found one that suits me btw) that I realised how bloody bad the 88H I had was! Since moving to bass I've discovered my sound on Bach (accidentally) and now understand the fact that what suits a player is a very personal matter. Everytime I visit a brass dealer I try their basses just for fun, there could be a gem there somewhere and any Conn 62H I've tried definitely isn't for me. I haven't encountered a 62HCL yet but tried a 88HCL and love the short throw on the valve. Would be interesting to try a 62H with hagmann's. I quite liked the Hagmann's on the 2 R9's I've played but personally I found them better suited for tenor. Having different valve options from a manufacturer is great and I do believe there is a market for a 62H with Hagmann valves but prehaps there is some type of clause between Conn-selmer and Mr. Lindberg.

I have an Elkhart 8H with a Hagmann. It’s AWESOME!

conn88Hagmann wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:48 am I have an Elkhart 8H with a Hagmann. It’s AWESOME!

Username checks out!

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:07 amI understand the marketing and advertising ploy, but like most drivel peddle by corporate/capitalist America (and other countries; after all, “The world is becoming Southern California”), it’s only partly true, i.e., mostly false.

If the world was becoming Southern California, Conns would be getting more popular!

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:45 am

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:07 amI understand the marketing and advertising ploy, but like most drivel peddle by corporate/capitalist America (and other countries; after all, “The world is becoming Southern California”), it’s only partly true, i.e., mostly false.

If the world was becoming Southern California, Conns would be getting more popular!

meine wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:11 pm I actually could make a review in 2009 I got a Conn 88HOSGX with standart open wrap valve section. I played very nice, but lacked some things. The difference in the feeling of the airflow between engaged and not engaged valve was significant, the engaged side was not so easy to controll and the sound was good, but not that what I was looking for.
The Hagmann valves changes the horn dramatically! It opened it up to a free blowing broad sounding monster which is, in my opinion, the best tenor trombone I‘ve ever tried. The airflow is free,open and even with and wirhout engaged valve. I could push the horn as much as I could, it never became bad sounding or nor playable. And I did that in british styled brassband.

Of course I understand Conn-Selmer. The want to have Bach as their top brand and Conn as their „hey-Bach-is-too-expensive-let‘s-take-a-Conn“ like brand. In terms of sale a good working idea I guess, but not so good for the quality of Conn and the development of Bach. Peter Steiner was the first to devolop something new with Bach as much as I know (by the way, interesting to see Peter return to Bach after playing Thein). I guess it would be better for Conn and Bach too if they would be competitors on the instrument market.

That is gorgeous! I wish I had stumbled upon this post when researching 88HO valve swaps. Felt like I was the only person who thought the stock valve/wrap were...lacking.

My admittedly-small-sample-sized experience trying Conns with Hagmann is that that valve completely changes the horn; the 8H's/88H's with Hagmann that I've tried played and sounded very different than any 88H I've played. You might love or hate the difference, but either way maybe that's why they don't offer it on Conns, if they feel it would go against the brand identity.

Whereas with 42's, a Thayer or Hagmann is a substantial improvement, but it still feels to me distinctly like a 42 – and if anything I would even say it feels like what I wished a 42B or 42BO felt like.

Can't comment on politics and Selmer company policies, why they will or won't put hagmanns on Conn trombones, but let me say this:

I own a Conn 112H with 2 after-market Hagmann independent Bb/Gb/F/D, and it really sings and plays well. It's my favorite Big Band horn ... the Hagmanns do a very good thing for equalizing the valve register in feel and timbre. perfect combination.

I also have a Sovereign tenor with Hagmann, and it's dull and reponseless. So, a good valve design will not save a bad horn from being heavy and uninteresting to play ...