TromboneChat

Wondering what is most normal with counting rest. No help, a little or a lot of sharing.
Especially in orchestra, you can have hundreds of measures to get lost in. And the longer the rest and the more the rests are rehearsed, the easier it is to see something shiny.

I see some players oblivious to sharing their count.
Other will let their finger be seen and even do a downbeat at the rehearsal marks.

I personally lean to the share the count. The more you share, the more likely all will work out for the section.

I have noticed the younger the player and the more time with advanced schooling the more they seem to hide their count. It it being taught at universities to do this?

I know some pros have played the pieces so many times they don't count, just listen and jump in.

Observations? Thoughts?

My fingers count on auto-pilot for me. The problem is that I tend to lose track of which multiple of 10 I'm in.
I am all in for checking with the section at rehearsal numbers.
Barring that, I wait until I see the guy next to me pick up his horn.

Counting those LONG rests and coming in (hopefully perfectly) on a cold horn and mouthpiece is certainly a challenge. In my experience, section leaders will (and should) indicate the count with a small gesture at the reh markings.

Even the most careful counting over a long rest is not reliable, as downbeats can "disappear" both in the music itself and from the podium. Printed cues vary widely in helpfulness based on the edition of the piece. I think the best we can do is - don't miss any rehearsals and pay close attention aurally to everything. Pencil in your own cues if needed.

Sometimes there are small notes indicating a French horn part or something that can be helpful in determining the exact time for the entrance. I had also often penciled in cues from other sections to let me know when I'm due. For example, if I hear the trumpets on a very prominent part just before my cue, I'll pencil in "trumpets!" on my part.

Otherwise, my preferred method of counting out rests is: "one-two-three-four; two-two-three-four; three-two-three-four", etc.

Don't you just hate it though, when near the end of a very long rest - during rehearsal, the conductor stops everybody b/c the oboes couldn't get their part right AND back to the beginning of the rest.

Like Mac I make my counting visible to the remainder of my section. For very long rests I'll use my left hand for 10's and right hand for units (5 out and 5 back in).

I think the worst thing I've ever encountered was a piece of music with a large blank area marked "Tacet jusq' au", then a rehearsal mark, and some 16 bars of rest followed by an entrance. I went to the score and counted ALL of the bars up to that rehearsal mark and wrote in a line with rehearsal marks and measures in between. Without that I'd never have made the entrance.

Penciled in cues from other instruments or major theme changes are a big help. Ideally you should know the music well enough you don't even have to count, but that doesn't actually happen often.

Section leaders should help bring people in, especially for sectional entrances. I've been in groups where one person in the brass section had a knack for counting accurately, so we would rely on that person.

Anything you do should not be visible to the audience, even finger counting, this is more relevant the more professional the group.

Sight-reading gigs require you to count the rests and get them right the first time. You need to rely on yourself: counting in your head and using your fingers on you lap helps immensely. If you're fortunate to get a rehearsal in marking as hyperbolica suggested is a good idea.

First, for the how… Jay F gave this unprompted in a masterclass I was at once. Told us all to learn the score and make sure we knew where the entrance was… but also do not count “1,2,3,4. 2,2,3,4. 3,2,3,4 etc..” he advocated just count the measure number. “1,1,1,1. 2,2,2,2. 3,3,3,3. Etc…” stops you from losing your place as easily.

Second, I count usually with my fingers, making sure that 1 and 6 look different as I only use one hand. I don’t hide it, but is is rather discreet as it shouldn’t look stupid from the hall. Heck, if we can ask the audience to pay attention to a piece they don’t know, shouldn’t we know it well enough to have a concept of where we are?

Lastly, https://www.instagram.com/reel/CoXg_m4 ... NzVkMjY%3D

Cheers,
Andy

I hate it when my section mate asks a question (like what is the count) or make a comment in the middle of a long rest. I always get lost on the count then.

I tend to fade out and fall asleep when I'm counting a lot of rests. The CPAP has helped that situation quite a lot. But honestly, that's one of the reasons I didn't go into orchestral playing.

I make LOTS of notes in the part the first time through, marking various instrument or section entrances, particular notes or chords or keys, so it's clear where I am without relying on counting long rests accurately.

A couple times I've resorted to getting a copy of the cello part and reading along...

Since the celli play most of the time, this avoids the vast majority of super long rests. Just don't get so into their part that you forget to switch back to your own part.

Read the clarinet/bassoon/viola part over their shoulder.

DDoghouse wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:20 am ... I wait until I see the guy next to me pick up his horn.

What if he's waiting for you?

127, 2, 3, 4, 128, 2, 3, 4, 129 dang was I supposed to get olive oil, 1???, 2, 3, 4. Oh crip, what's the count?

Play bass trombone in Beethoven's 9th, 2nd movement. It's in a fast one. You have 571 bars to count before you have an entrance. If you listen to the music, it seems to approach your entrance several times. At last you are on. One note. It's a D above the staff. And it's SOLO! It happens three times (unless the conductor chooses to omit one repeat).

I had a funny situation once when the tuba player asked me what the count was. I told him MY count but he came pooping in a bar early because I always count backwards --- something he didn't realize. I always figured that if you count backwards you are then FORCED to look forward to the next set of rests, but if you count forwards you can count past the actual number of rests and wonder what went wrong ! Worked for me !

I will use my fingers to count when needed. I put out one finger for bars 1-5 (starting with index finger, ending with thumb) and then touch my thumb to the tip of each finger for bars 6, 7, 8, 9, and then just leave my thumb out for #10…repeat for 11-20.

Playing in an orchestra, I would figure out at least one or two cues in a very long rest that would tell me when to actually start counting again…or follow the form of the piece if it’s a sonata form movement, minuet, rondo, etc. without having to count every measure.

I had a section mate in college…who is now somewhat well-known, but not as a trombone player… that my other section mates and I (more mathematically-minded people—duh, look at what I do for a living now) would try to throw off by reversing the number of bars & the number of beats per bar… like if we were in 4/4 time and there was a 7-measure rest, we would make our counting very obvious, except we would count four groups of seven beats apiece rather than 7 groups of 4.

I think it's pretty much the accepted practice in orchestras to share the count within the section with a nod or subtle hand gesture at rehearsal marks, double bars and other such orientation points, without otherwise showing anything. Counting with my hands in any way that's at all visible is definitely something I was thought never to do, because 1) it looks awful if everyone does it, and 2) everyone doesn't always have the same number of rests so that can be confusing to others. Whereas we all have the same rehearsal marks, key signature changes, etc.


Otherwise for the counting itself I have a method that's a bit unusual. For the last 7 or 8 years I've actually been counting rests with my fingers in binary for exactly this reason :

DDoghouse wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:20 am The problem is that I tend to lose track of which multiple of 10 I'm in.

It's happened too many times that i couldn't remember if I was switching from 40's to 50's or 50's to 60's.


Using binary, you can count up to 32 on one hand and up to 1024 with the second hand. It's only my fingertips making contact with my knee, so the movements are totally inconspicuous and not disturbing. And I can actually stop consciously counting and let my fingers follow the sequence without thinking about it. By now I know instinctively what the finger combinations mean so I can find the count again if I stop counting in my head or get confused. Counting becomes as much a physical sensation as a mental act.

Lately I've been sitting near other trombonists who count like they're conducting. They wave their hands around and count out loud. It's been all I could do to not slap them upside the head. Sad part is it hasn't always been youngsters. I seen a few old farts my age doing it too. Between that and all the foot tapping I see going on I'm about to lose it.

Based on a community group...
1) ask the conductor if there's a cue, I got a tip from him on when the endless tooting of 1941 was coming to an end (easy to lose place in the repeated toot)
2) get a look at the conductor's score and find your own clue
3) don't trust what you hear in practice... the cue you heard may not be in the right spot

and... I'm still trying to figure out how to count as we jump 12/8, 9/8, 1/4, 4/4 ...

Saw this the other day and loved it:

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:30 am I tend to fade out and fall asleep when I'm counting a lot of rests. The CPAP has helped that situation quite a lot.

I get it. I had undiagnosed sleep apnea for years and it was torture to stay focused during
long rests. Better now but simply getting older can work against you too.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:30 am I tend to fade out and fall asleep when I'm counting a lot of rests. The CPAP has helped that situation quite a lot. But honestly, that's one of the reasons I didn't go into orchestral playing.

I make LOTS of notes in the part the first time through, marking various instrument or section entrances, particular notes or chords or keys, so it's clear where I am without relying on counting long rests accurately.

What does CPAP stand for?

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:00 pm
What does CPAP stand for?

continuous positive airway pressure

sacfxdx wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:09 pm

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:00 pm
What does CPAP stand for?

continuous positive airway pressure

To further explain...
A CPAP device is used to treat sleep apnea. Basically what Doug's saying is that, thanks to getting better quality sleep, he finds he's less prone to "zone out" counting long rests...

JohnL wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:06 pm

sacfxdx wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:09 pm

continuous positive airway pressure

To further explain...
A CPAP device is used to treat sleep apnea. Basically what Doug's saying is that, thanks to getting better quality sleep, he finds he's less prone to "zone out" counting long rests...

That makes a lot of sense, thanks. I also experience that when I don’t get enough sleep.

Basically I use every trick I can think of. Yes, counting on my hands. Looking over the shoulder of whover's in front of me, if they have a more active part. Writing in cues. Memorizing the orchestral stuff going on right before an entrance.

One thing not really brought up yet: writing in cues at a specific landmark before the entrance and the # of bars or a measure # at that point. Standard cues in professionally published parts can include cues in some measures immediately before an entrance, but sometimes I find that a cue at the start of an important section/landmark can be just as useful. Example: a prominent oboe solo 8 measures before my entrance.

Normal way of counting? Probably does not exist. Different people use different methods in whatever fashion works best for them. In my limited experience this is what works best for me.
1) Listen...to form, if possible, and to other instruments/sections entrances.
2) If that doesn't work well, become familiar with the score. There is no substitute for that.
3) If you must physically count, use your big toes; just make sure that your toenails are well trimmed.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:11 am I think the worst thing I've ever encountered was a piece of music with a large blank area marked "Tacet jusq' au", then a rehearsal mark, and some 16 bars of rest followed by an entrance. I went to the score and counted ALL of the bars up to that rehearsal mark and wrote in a line with rehearsal marks and measures in between. Without that I'd never have made the entrance.

"Tacet al fine" is a fair marking.

"Tacet jusq' au X" (where X is a rehearsal mark) is anything but a fair marking.

The only thing I can think of that would justify such a lazy practice would be if there was something prominent at the end of the "wait for" mark...like a soloist's cadenza that is cued into the part. But it would have to be something unmistakably obvious, and it would have to be cued into the parts.

For whatever it's worth, Bruce, you did the only thing you could do, although the copyist should have done it for you.

Conscientious copyists will give players prominent cues to help with verifying a count.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:30 am I tend to fade out and fall asleep when I'm counting a lot of rests. The CPAP has helped that situation quite a lot. But honestly, that's one of the reasons I didn't go into orchestral playing.

I make LOTS of notes in the part the first time through, marking various instrument or section entrances, particular notes or chords or keys, so it's clear where I am without relying on counting long rests accurately.

I tend to start improvising a counter melody in my head. Soon it seems that is more important to my head then actually counting.

I have also told directors in rehearsal, usually when they keep going back to some spot in the middle of a hundred measure rest, that I was at the Holiday inn express waiting for a cue.

Sometimes it feels like 50% of the gig is counting/coming in correctly and 25% is being reliable at making clean entrances on an ice-cold horn. Only the remaining 25% is musical (tone, style, phrase, blend).

Simply get to know the music well quickly. Then you don't even need to count. Falling asleep... develop a semi sleep where you are still aware of the music...it can be done....39 years of opera ...trust me, it's possible.

If a guy within your reach is actually counting with his hand waving a baton pattern, break his arm.

Tom Scott showed me his trick for counting. Tapping with the tip of your thumb, count the knuckles/tips of your fingers. Start with the four on your index finger and keep going to the next finger, on to the pinkie. That gives you four per finger, so 16 measures for a hand. Make sense? When your thump taps the little knuckle on your ring finger, that's 11, for example. Having another way to keep track of the 16 sets isn't hard to come up with. Of course Tom plays more commercial music than Beethoven, so sets of 4/8/16 are highly helpful in his world.

Leanit wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:11 am If a guy within your reach is actually counting with his hand waving a baton pattern, break his arm.

Tom Scott showed me his trick for counting. Tapping with the tip of your thumb, count the knuckles/tips of your fingers. Start with the four on your index finger and keep going to the next finger, on to the pinkie. That gives you four per finger, so 16 measures for a hand. Make sense? When your thump taps the little knuckle on your ring finger, that's 11, for example. Having another way to keep track of the 16 sets isn't hard to come up with. Of course Tom plays more commercial music than Beethoven, so sets of 4/8/16 are highly helpful in his world.

Don't even think of trying that with Stravinsky!

elmsandr wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:25 am but also do not count “1,2,3,4. 2,2,3,4. 3,2,3,4 etc..” he advocated just count the measure number. “1,1,1,1. 2,2,2,2. 3,3,3,3. Etc…” stops you from losing your place as easily.

I like this. But repeating a number 3 or 4 times required a sub count, that then gave the same issue.

So to count rest I am counting 1 e and a two e and a........ This keeps the extra numbers out, yet puts a syllable in the place to obvious to daydream though.

I try to follow the section leader - oh, wait, that's me! Now what?

It's kind of sad when the most difficult parts of the music are NOT playing!

My experience has been a bit different. I've only met 2 psycho bone players in my life who actually derive pleasure from making someone else come in wrong. Everyone else I've ever played with are glad to help each other. Until now I've never heard anyone ever say the principal has more responsibility for this than the rest of the section. I've always considered it my responsibility to count my own rests no matter which chair I'm in, and if we want to help each other out, it is done equally. I count on my fingers. It can easily be done in a subtle way that the audience won't be able to see. I was taught to count 1 2 3 4...2 2 3 4, but haven't done that since I was very young. At some point it seemed completely unnecessary to me. I just think "1", then "2" on the next measure, etc. I never understood why it you would have to count each beat in your head (although occasionally I will if there are tricky mixed meter measures).

I have also encountered players who don't seem to want to bother counting their rests, and try to just pick up their horn when they see the rest of the section pick theirs up. Of course that doesn't work if they have an independent entrance. I find these people extremely annoying and selfish. And I'm sure that attitude is going to hurt their careers in the long term.

blap73 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:41 pm Based on a community group...
1) ask the conductor if there's a cue, I got a tip from him on when the endless tooting of 1941 was coming to an end (easy to lose place in the repeated toot)
2) get a look at the conductor's score and find your own clue
3) don't trust what you hear in practice... the cue you heard may not be in the right spot

and... I'm still trying to figure out how to count as we jump 12/8, 9/8, 1/4, 4/4 ...

Saw this the other day and loved it:

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:11 am Like Mac I make my counting visible to the remainder of my section. For very long rests I'll use my left hand for 10's and right hand for units (5 out and 5 back in).

I do the same and that covers the first 60 bars.

/Tom

In my section, sharing the count is the norm. A discrete finger flic is all that is needed. The audience need not be aware of the grubby details of performance we must track.

whitbey wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:32 pm I have noticed the younger the player and the more time with advanced schooling the more they seem to hide their count. It it being taught at universities to do this?

Most of us learn to count by using fingers. Then, still as small children, we learn that finger counting is for babies, so we suppress it. After several orchestral train wrecks, we learn that sometimes, it's okay after all.

Counting? Seriously? Everyone knows that's what the 2nd trombonist is for!

I've experienced the same thing as Bruce playing orchestral parts - "Tacet to K" or something such as that. We also played one piece - can't remember composer - that started with an unbroken 273 measure rest....playing orchestral bass bone parts, I'm used to extended periods of rests - but normally they are broken down into smaller chunks with some cues to figure out where you are at....our brass players are good at sharing the count!

There should be an app.

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 6:17 am There should be an app.

Right?

blast wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:29 am Simply get to know the music well quickly. Then you don't even need to count. Falling asleep... develop a semi sleep where you are still aware of the music...it can be done....39 years of opera ...trust me, it's possible.

There was a time when I was doing Beethoven 5 a lot. I got to where I could doze through the first three movements.

As for the lack of cues, presumably they had a lot more rehearsals in those days (except in the UK).

And, yes, share the count.

At least in my experience only time people give a gesture is at a rehearsal marking. I think the worst thing I've run into was Shostakovich 7 for the trombone 4-6 parts in the third or fourth movement it says to tacet then you get a xylophone queue that is sometimes a little difficult to hear since it's in the middle of an extremely big sounding section!

All of the methods mentioned are good in the right context. Many times, it helps to use more than one method so as to keep the brain from zoning out.

What generally works well for my trombone section is to take a shot of whiskey every 10 measures of rest as a timekeeper. Each empty glass = 10 measures. By the time 40 or 50 measures have gone by, nobody cares anymore about the count.


Just kidding about that last part of course!

blast wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:29 am Simply get to know the music well quickly. Then you don't even need to count. Falling asleep... develop a semi sleep where you are still aware of the music...it can be done....39 years of opera ...trust me, it's possible.

Ever read “Playing Trombone” by Nicholson Baker? It was a short story in The Atlantic about 35 years ago.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:25 am First, for the how… Jay F gave this unprompted in a masterclass I was at once. Told us all to learn the score and make sure we knew where the entrance was… but also do not count “1,2,3,4. 2,2,3,4. 3,2,3,4 etc..” he advocated just count the measure number. “1,1,1,1. 2,2,2,2. 3,3,3,3. Etc…” stops you from losing your place as easily.

I’ll have to try this. Yes, I use cues, recordings, section mates, watching the violas (ugh!), etc. A new or (hopefully) better tool is always welcome.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:25 am Lastly, https://www.instagram.com/reel/CoXg_m4 ... NzVkMjY%3D

Cheers,
Andy

I’ve done that TOOOO many times!

whitbey wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:32 pm Wondering what is most normal with counting rest. No help, a little or a lot of sharing.
Especially in orchestra, you can have hundreds of measures to get lost in. And the longer the rest and the more the rests are rehearsed, the easier it is to see something shiny.

I see some players oblivious to sharing their count.
Other will let their finger be seen and even do a downbeat at the rehearsal marks.

I personally lean to the share the count. The more you share, the more likely all will work out for the section.

Absolutely share the count.

I count in ASL, units on my right hand, tens on my left.

I prefer letter rehearsal marks to numbers, because we can share the passing rehearsal marks with the ASL alpha equivalent on one knee or the other.

TO ALL COPYISTS/ORCHESTRATORS: If you're going to give someone (anyone) an extended rest, it's a courtesy to the whole orchestra to:
1. Include all rehearsal marks.
2. Include all key changes and tempo changes.
3. Provide useful cues, (i.e., prominent things that are happening, preferably something going on nearby). A Flute 1 cue playing in the lower octave is useless, unless it is the ONLY thing happening.
4. If you are cuing a transposed instrument (e.g., a solo part for A clarinet), please provide it at concert pitch, not as written in the instrument part. Some of us have perfect pitch, and if I see a written "C", I expect to hear a "C", not an "A".
5. If a movement is tacit for my instrument, but the movement segues immediately to the next movement in which I play, please provide me some cues toward the end of the tacit movement.