TromboneChat

Anyone else play French Horn as a double?

These days in many venues you pretty much have to play small bore tenor, large bore tenor, and bass trombone. Then some folks add alto trombone (which hardly ever gets used on a gig in my experience) and bass trombone players add tuba. But I'm thinking of learning French Horn instead. FH is in big demand (thank you John Williams). At least where I live, there is more demand than good players. And horn gets some great stuff to play. It's near the trombone range. It's easier to carry around than a tuba.

Has anyone here learned horn after playing trombone? What wisdom can you pass along, both as to instruments, learning, and gigging?

I thought of this because I'm ending up playing a lot of horn parts in a run of Into The Woods, and I wish I actually played French Horn.

Good idea? Waste of time? Not gonna get any work or going to get lots of work? What are your thoughts?

That's what I call a drastic double. It's a brass instrument, it's a similar range. But it's a different monster that will not help your trombone playing.

Some do it, few do it successfully... I'm happy to leave horn playing to horn players personally.

I occasionally use French horn while playing contemporary Christian music in the church worship band. As the only brass player, I primarily use trumpet or trombone, but also pull out the euphonium regularly and the French horn for a few songs. If you can read trumpet music, it’s not difficult to transition to the horn, just minor fingering differences. Daughter is primarily a French horn musician, but can also get by on trumpet. In my case, my music is the chord sheet guitar and keyboard players use, gives me a good starting point, but have to transpose on the fly. I only have a single horn in F, which does meet my needs, but as a pro you would want a double horn. Takes some practice to make good sounds on one, I would definitely recommend connecting with a good instructor to learn all the little things that make life easier. Only by trying will you know! And yes, a good horn isn’t cheap.

To really get good at it and play even semi professionally you have to be reasonably proficient in a few transpositions. It’s not insurmountable but not for the faint of heart

My horn-playing daughter loved the horn parts when she was in the pit orchestra for Into the Woods at her high school.

I'm in the amateur group of the "some do it." It's been a fun way to spend time with my daughter (although now that she's playing in her college orchestra she has much less patience with my lack of skill) and to tinker on virtual ensembles at home. If our community band didn't have more than enough horn players I could probably handle the 3rd part. If you do take it up, spend some time drilling the partials into your ear memory. They sit differently than trombone. Even better if you can learn some of the nuances about when to use the thumb trigger to help with tuning / intonation.

The short version, from experience:

Pick up the horn because you want to, not because you hope to get work on it. If you do learn the horn and really want some playing opportunities: get to know some producers. Horn players typically don't operate in those circles, so you will be largely uncontested. But don't expect work in your typical gigging circles on the horn, unless you write the charts in the groups you play in.

If you want to get lots of work on a higher brass double: trumpet, trumpet, trumpet. Upside down and six ways to Sunday. You may find you play more trumpet than trombone some months, no matter how many good trumpet players there are in town. There is always work for trumpet.

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:33 pm The short version, from experience:

Pick up the horn because you want to, not because you hope to get work on it. If you do learn the horn and really want some playing opportunities: get to know some producers. Horn players typically don't operate in those circles, so you will be largely uncontested. But don't expect work in your typical gigging circles on the horn, unless you write the charts in the groups you play in.

If you want to get lots of work on a higher brass double: trumpet, trumpet, trumpet. Upside down and six ways to Sunday. You may find you play more trumpet than trombone some months, no matter how many good trumpet players there are in town. There is always work for trumpet.

Well, I said horn because I really like french horn, not because I think it's a rocket ship to work. However, the reason I don't play alto trombone is specifically because there is no real work to be had on it, so I can't say that work isn't a consideration. I think it's both: I really love French horn, and I really want to work on that axe. And I love French horn parts. So work is definitely a consideration, as I would not be happy learning it just to play it in my practice studio.

Yeah, trumpet is the obvious one, right? Absolutely agree. But I just have no interest in playing trumpet. And frankly I think I can be better on French horn than I can be on trumpet, though perhaps that's just naive of me to believe. So trumpet is a no-go for me, no matter how much potential work I'd hypothetically be losing out on.

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 12:11 pmI think it's both: I really love French horn, and I really want to work on that axe. And I love French horn parts. So work is definitely a consideration, as I would not be happy learning it just to play it in my practice studio.

In that case, go for it! Just be sure to get a double horn, and don't expect work right away. I'm happy to recommend some good models you can get affordably used.

Yeah, trumpet is the obvious one, right? Absolutely agree. But I just have no interest in playing trumpet. And frankly I think I can be better on French horn than I can be on trumpet, though perhaps that's just naive of me to believe.

I certainly enjoy playing horn much more than trumpet. But, any time I get paid to play a brass instrument (even if it's trumpet) is good in my book!

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 12:17 pm
In that case, go for it! Just be sure to get a double horn, and don't expect work right away. I'm happy to recommend some good models you can get affordably used.

I think a Conn 8D is probably the go-to axe, right? At least, that's what my horn player friend plays and recommended.

I certainly enjoy playing horn much more than trumpet. But, any time I get paid to play a brass instrument (even if it's trumpet) is good in my book!

It's really such a privilege to be paid to play music. I'm still in awe that people give me money to do this.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:44 pm That's what I call a drastic double. It's a brass instrument, it's a similar range. But it's a different monster that will not help your trombone playing.

"Drastic double." I like that!

Yeah, I know it's super unusual. And it's not like you can just pull-in to a recording session and suggest that you get a horn double the way you can suggest getting a bass trombone double, for instance. In fact, I probably shouldn't even think of it as a "double." It's in a completely different lane.

But I really like French horn parts.

bwanamfupi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 5:36 pm My horn-playing daughter loved the horn parts when she was in the pit orchestra for Into the Woods at her high school.

Yeah, it's a really nice part, and a wonderfully orchestral score.

If you do take it up, spend some time drilling the partials into your ear memory. They sit differently than trombone. Even better if you can learn some of the nuances about when to use the thumb trigger to help with tuning / intonation.

Good advice. Getting an ear for the partials will be really important. Fortunately, I have a friend who plays F Horn professionally who laughed when I asked her to teach me, and then said she would.

Bill Watrous also played French horn

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 12:23 pmI think a Conn 8D is probably the go-to axe, right? At least, that's what my horn player friend plays and recommended.

It is one of the old standards, but it's been largely replaced by medium throat Geyer wraps these days (unless you live in Southern California or Cleveland). Of course, Europe and Asia are almost universally on Alexander 103s.

All that said, Kruspe wrap vs. Geyer wrap and medium throat vs. large throat is entirely player preference. I happen to love the big dark 8D sound, so I play a big Kruspe wrap. But I also love the lean and bright Alexander 103 sound and feel, so I need one of those too...

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 3:03 pm Bill Watrous also played French horn

Nawwwwww..... Really? I mean, I knew him for, like, 20 years. Worked with him, recorded with him, hung out at his house, knew his wife, imbibed a truckload of weed with him (hey, it was back in the day), and never did I ever see a French horn or hear him talk about it. Or if he did, I totally don't remember it. It's a revelation to me! What do you know? I'd love to learn about Billy's horn adventures.

But, then, he also "sang" and "whistled," and those pursuits were forgettable, too.

Conn 6D is also a decent horn to learn on and can be found for cheaper than 8D. I have one and like it though I only really played it for a month when I got it and it has since been collecting dust mostly. It has a F/Bb sides, and is a little more compact and easier to play… at least with my minimal level of ability to compare the two.

Mouthpiece choice seems to make a bigger difference too but that could be just my lack of experience speaking too

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 4:30 pm

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 3:03 pm Bill Watrous also played French horn

Nawwwwww..... Really? I mean, I knew him for, like, 20 years. Worked with him, recorded with him, hung out at his house, knew his wife, imbibed a truckload of weed with him (hey, it was back in the day), and never did I ever see a French horn or hear him talk about it. Or if he did, I totally don't remember it. It's a revelation to me! What do you know? I'd love to learn about Billy's horn adventures.

But, then, he also "sang" and "whistled," and those pursuits were forgettable, too.

He was also a huge Holst fan and loved to play the organ in the Royal Albert hall

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:32 am

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 4:30 pm

Nawwwwww..... Really? I mean, I knew him for, like, 20 years. Worked with him, recorded with him, hung out at his house, knew his wife, imbibed a truckload of weed with him (hey, it was back in the day), and never did I ever see a French horn or hear him talk about it. Or if he did, I totally don't remember it. It's a revelation to me! What do you know? I'd love to learn about Billy's horn adventures.

But, then, he also "sang" and "whistled," and those pursuits were forgettable, too.

He was also a huge Holst fan and loved to play the organ in the Royal Albert hall

Hm. I don't know if you're pranking me or not. I'm sure Bill was a Holst fan. He would get on these kicks where he would obsess over some composer, like Mozart or Bach as a couple examples, and it's all he would talk about. One such obsession I thought was a little odd was John Phillip Sousa, where Bill would go on these big rants about him and would want to play me all these examples of his greatness. So it wouldn't surprise me if he went on a Holst kick, too. And who wouldn't want to play the organ in Royal Albert Hall? LOL!

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 7:59 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:32 am

He was also a huge Holst fan and loved to play the organ in the Royal Albert hall

Hm. I don't know if you're pranking me or not. I'm sure Bill was a Holst fan. He would get on these kicks where he would obsess over some composer, like Mozart or Bach as a couple examples, and it's all he would talk about. One such obsession I thought was a little odd was John Phillip Sousa, where Bill would go on these big rants about him and would want to play me all these examples of his greatness. So it wouldn't surprise me if he went on a Holst kick, too. And who wouldn't want to play the organ in Royal Albert Hall? LOL!

Not pranking you

Conn 6D, Olds 6D copy, and Yamaha 561/567 are both great-playing intermediate doubles to start on. The 6D used to be a pro model, and the very early ones are fabulous.

Used pro models that play well and go for good prices - Holton H177/178/179/180, Reynolds Contempora (Pottag model), Yamaha 661/662/663/664, King Fidelio

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 9:04 am Conn 6D, Olds 6D copy, and Yamaha 561/567 are both great-playing intermediate doubles to start on. The 6D used to be a pro model, and the very early ones are fabulous.

Used pro models that play well and go for good prices - Holton H177/178/179/180, Reynolds Contempora (Pottag model), Yamaha 661/662/663/664, King Fidelio

Finetales is right on here ^. I often see beautiful Elkhart 6D's going for small money. And the Yamaha's are largely ignored and go cheaply as a result. These were top-of-the-line horns in their time and play beautifully. Great valves!

Horn players play very low on little tiny mouthpieces.

Would learning how to do that be transferable to trombone? Or just mess your chops up?

It depends on how you do it.
It's very possible to play low range on horn without shifting, but just like bass trombone players, horn players will say you have to shift. Tradition.....

Yes, learning to play low range on horn without shifting can transfer to trombone.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:07 am Horn players play very low on little tiny mouthpieces.

Would learning how to do that be transferable to trombone? Or just mess your chops up?

In my experince there is not that difficult to play low on a horn. But playing on a horn mouthpiece will for a short time mess your trombone chops up before you get used to it.

I picked up horn about 2yrs ago to play in our community orchestra. I found a '63 Holton 77 double french horn (very first horn designed by Jon Farkas) online for $499 and just started practicing - mainly excerpts and an Advanced Method Vol 1 by Rubank (it had the horn fingerings at the front and transposing tips too). The mouthpiece adjustment period didn't take very long for me because I also dabble in trumpet and my high range on trombone is very good. For perspective, a high F on trombone is the same note as a high C (2 ledger lines above the treble clef) for horn - same buzz. Horn music rarely gets higher than that (one time we had "rip as high as possible" in our music). Since I knew/know trumpet fingerings, I installed a reversing linkage on my horn's change valve. Typically the horn plays in F and then players engage the thumb trigger to shorten the instrument to Bb around (written) G in the treble clef. With the reversing linkage, my horn sits in Bb normally and then drops to F with the trigger (same process as my F-attachment trombone). My hornmates think I'm weird but the concept is most familiar to me.

Some tips:
~ air flow is different, obviously. Horn is less demanding in an air volume sense, but air speed is higher.
~ partials are really, really close together compared to trombone. accuracy above the (treble) staff can be difficult at first. micro embouchure & air speed adjustments are required but you get used to it.
~ use your (in bell) right hand for tuning adjustments
~ be prepared to empty your water CONSTANTLY. so many tuning slides!

Enjoy the journey! I definitely have.

LeoInFL wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:18 am ~ partials are really, really close together compared to trombone.

I've been wondering about that.

A standard double horn has 12 feet of tubing when playing on the F side, and 9 on the Bb side.

Same as a trombone.

And I understand you switch to Bb for the higher notes, same as a trombone. If you played the F side all the way up the partials should be really close, but on the Bb side?

PS I recently learned there are true double horns, where the sets of tubing are completely separate, and semi doubles, which add the F tubing like a trombone does.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 7:44 am And I understand you switch to Bb for the higher notes, same as a trombone. If you played the F side all the way up the partials should be really close, but on the Bb side?

PS I recently learned there are true double horns, where the sets of tubing are completely separate, and semi doubles, which add the F tubing like a trombone does.

With the reversing linkage on my Holton, my horn is Bb/F instead of F/Bb like it comes from the factory. I basically play on the Bb/no-trigger side all of the time, except for when the music calls for lower notes than (written) G below the staff. I like honking out the low notes on horn so I typically play 4th book in the orchestra. But don't think that 4th just plays low root notes. Alot of music has all horns play above the staff at times.

When you talk about 'true' double' horns I think you're referring to a horn with separate leadpipes for the Bb and F sides. I can't think of the wrap style (not Geyer and not Kruspe) but I know what you're talking about. Definitely found on pro horns and not something I've played or seen in person before.

I didn't mention mouthpieces in my previous post (because they're very dependent on the individual), but generally speaking Geyer-wrap horns 'like' cup shaped mouthpieces and conversely Kruspe-wrap horns 'like' funnel-shaped mouthpieces. It took several tries but settled on a funnel-shaped mouthpiece with an 18.5mm diameter rim (on the larger side).

It's Philip Farkas by the way - he was Principal in the Chicago Symphony for many years (as well as other top orchestras) and was a horn professor at Indiana University for many years.

JS

LeoInFL wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 2:57 pm When you talk about 'true' double' horns I think you're referring to a horn with separate leadpipes for the Bb and F sides. I can't think of the wrap style (not Geyer and not Kruspe) but I know what you're talking about. Definitely found on pro horns and not something I've played or seen in person before.

Both the Kruspe and Geyer/Knopf wraps are "full doubles"; air travels through one or the other plane of the valve cluster, never through both at the same time. On a "compensating double", the change valve either routes the air through one plane (for Bb) or both planes (for F). Compensating doubles have never been very popular in the USA. Getzen had one for a while, but I think it was a stencil that was made in Italy (possibly by Anborg?). Kanstul had one in their catalog for a while, but I don't think they sold many.

The only two-leadpipe designs I've seen have been triple horns; as I understand it, the extra leadpipe is used for the descant side.

On triple and double descant horns, the standard leadpipe would be too long for the high F (or sometimes high Eb) side, so those horns either have a change valve soon after the mouthpiece, which allows for a short high F leadpipe and full-length Bb/low F leadpipe, or all sides use the short pipe and there is dummy tubing that goes where a full-length leadpipe would be (as it allows for the usual hand grip at the valves, and matches the look of a standard double).

LeoInFL wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:18 amWith the reversing linkage, my horn sits in Bb normally and then drops to F with the trigger (same process as my F-attachment trombone). My hornmates think I'm weird but the concept is most familiar to me.

This is actually standard in continental Europe. They start on single Bbs and move to Alexander 103 doubles, which generally have better Bb sides, so most players have their horns standing in Bb.

I know a couple of horn players here in the US that have reversed their change valve to stand in Bb as well. It makes sense, as a lot of horn playing is done on the Bb side.

Your specific horn determines which fingerings you use in the middle-low register...some horns speak better on the Bb side in that register, others on the F side. The only fairly universal fingering is that G/F# in the staff and G/F# below the staff are played on the F side, but many players will play everything else above "pedal" C on the Bb side.

I think many FH players have a middle range that they play on either side of the horn, depending on the context.

I have been learning FH. It's a blast. But I will say that the first month or so was *tough*. It was a steep curve! But I am sailing along nicely now.