Euphonium doubling intonation in pit

[AnthonyGTrombone]

Hello again yall.

Hopefully this is the right sub forum.

I'm having some issues with a musical theater production I'm working on.
Were doing Annie and the book calls for Trombone and Euph.
Intonation is easy on trombone.
It sounds (to me) that the band rides a little high on the pitch which is fine by me. Things blend well with the Piano, so perhaps we aren't truly sharp.

Issues arise on my Besson Sovereign 966.
It's an older and smaller horn. It makes a lovely sound and I've had no issues in the past 2 years of owning it playing in brass ensembles.
The horn has a tuning paddle, which is handy in the upper register.

Even when playing at home to recordings of the production I just couldn't blend with the pit.

Tuner is showing me in tune, my ears say I'm way flat.
I'm able to bend some notes sufficiently but I'm really at the edge of the slot to get things high enough to my ears and some notes just can't get high enlugh. (tuner showing 30 cents sharp when things sound right)
Im warming up the horn and pushed all the way in.
alternates help me get in tune to the band, but some valves just can't play as sharp as I need them to. First valve G# is very low compared to the band but only shows around 2-3 cents flat to equal temperament.
Warming up the horn before playing helps but it's hard to truly get it warm, and it only mitigates things.
I'm playing on an SM4U. I'm going to try a 4AL tomorrow to see if the smaller piece helps lighten the sound.

Does anyone have any advice? Is this a case of an old squirrely besson? Have my euphonium chops gone to shit?
I'm starting to get anxious because my music supervisor is (understandably) not impressed.

[WilliamLang]

I'd trust your ears that you need to go sharper, and just tune the horn that way. Relying on a tuner means you're correct with only one expression of pitch. Pitch being a malleable thing, you need to play with the people around you wherever they are.

Euphonium is also a tricky instrument in pits - I like to imagine it as a larger french horn rather than a trombone when the book calls for it, if that's helpful at all.

[AnthonyGTrombone]

I'd trust your ears that you need to go sharper, and just tune the horn that way. Relying on a tuner means you're correct with only one expression of pitch. Pitch being a malleable thing, you need to play with the people around you wherever they are.

Euphonium is also a tricky instrument in pits - I like to imagine it as a larger french horn rather than a trombone when the book calls for it, if that's helpful at all.

Thanks William! That's what I figured as far as trusting my ears. I really started doubting myself which is a bad habit of mine.

Hopefully I can find a way to get the horn to play sharper.
I think part of the issue is certainly tone and blend.
In our current space even my softest dynamics on euphonium just fill the room in a way my trombone doesn't.
Maybe going for a less euphonium-y more big french horn sound will help the intonation be less offensive.

I'm going to be in Boston Mass on tour, hopefully you're around for a lesson, I absolutely love your youtube videos.
I'll reach out soon!

[WilliamLang]

Last time I couldn't get my euph quiet enough for a bandleader I just ended up tossing a t-shirt in the bell... hopefully it doesn't go that far for you! Best of luck on the tour

[Doug Elliott]

You hear euphonium through a different balance of ears and sound than the way you hear trombone.
In this case I would not necessarily trust your ears... I would record it from a small distance so it's balanced with the rest of the pit, and judge the intonation from the recording.

I just played a gig on euphonium and ran into a similar issue wondering about my pitch. It settled much higher than I initially thought. And I backed off the volume a lot. Sound projected without having to work for it at all.

[Burgerbob]

I had a similar problem my first read of Urinetown. It worked itself out after a couple rehearsals and I got used to the feedback. You really need to play euphonium a healthy amount to keep it at 100%, just because the sound is yeeting into the atmosphere on your right, if nothing else.

[CalgaryTbone]

I did a short run of Mary Poppins one summer. It was a pretty hot couple of weeks, and the AC was "cranked" in the theatre. I always dreaded the first few notes on a cold Euphonium on those quick instrument changes. As much as possible, I made it a habit to pick up the Euphonium and blow some warm air through it to get the pitch up a bit.

Jim Scott

[Matt K]

Couple of things…

First, definitely worth having a tech make sure things are in alignment, not leaking ( especially tuning slides and valves), and you’re using a thick enough valve oil to seal well.

Secondly, euph is really sensitive to mouthpiece, especially if you aren’t on it every day. I would make sure the mouthpiece is inserting the correct amount ( typically about 1”). If it is, you may be going too deep in cup depth or throat. Especially on an older euph. You don’t necessarily need something huge to sound good on euph. Especially if you’re trombone piece is much smaller. You may be surprised that even a 6.5 AL may do the trick. I wouldn’t go smaller than that though.

[harrisonreed]

Tuner says you're good but your ears don't -- your brain is probably focusing on different harmonics in the sound of the euph that aren't as present on the trombone. You should* record like Doug suggested, and work with drones.

Don't forget too, singers, violinists, and trombonists will naturally play Pythagorean tuned scales and melodies. This scale has narrow half steps and wide whole steps, and in practice you end up raising most of the pitches in a scale. It's not so easy to do on euph. You might be dead on with the tuner, but your brain might be wanting to play with a different temperament.

* edit - corrected spelling

[Matt K]

That’s a good point. Might be playing flat on the pitch too (eg playing in tune but in a way that sounds flat). Playing with a drone can help lock in both the intonation and the timbre

[ithinknot]

Record, and work from there. I think this probably a combo of feedback and slotting rather than a question of temperament nuance.

As an extreme example... I have a BBb tuba that I can't really claim to play, and the discrepancy between the pitch I hear in my head and what comes out of the bell is wild. Like, maybe 20 or 30 cents out. It's completely consistent, I've recorded myself and all of my lipping ends up exactly where I want interval-to-interval, but there's this massive offset. I'd guess that I'm probably using nowhere near enough air, and sitting way at the top of the slot, so the buzz pitch in my skull rides higher than what comes out of the bell. Some day I'll work on it properly, but it's not a priority. In the meantime, it really helps weigh down the house in strong winds.

Don't trust your ears ...yet.

[hyperbolica]

I have the same problem with tuba, which could be a number of different issues, but it seems it's not an isolated problem on conical valve instruments.

[ithinknot]

Can you get into a big reverberant space? Tampa might be short on Gothic architecture, but playing in a parking garage or similar would be great for checking out the "am I getting back what I'm putting in?" loop.

[AnthonyGTrombone]

Thanks everyone for the tips! So much great info!
I think it's definitely a combination of not being used to hearing Euph, so I'm focused on different parts of the sound, as well those small half step intervals. I think that's where a lot of the problems lie.

Things have improved a lot with a smaller mouthpiece as someone suggested. I was playing on something very deep which sounded beautiful, but was too big for this ensemble.
Its been helping me play a little softer too which is helpful.

Additionally we just moved to the pit today and the in ears are helping me a lot. I think it cuts out some of the overtones so I can focus on the fundamental sound.

Can you get into a big reverberant space? Tampa might be short on Gothic architecture, but playing in a parking garage or similar would be great for checking out the "am I getting back what I'm putting in?" loop.

I'm currently on tour. Our rehearsal room was very reverberant. I spent a little time there yesterday with a tuner and made some notes of how things sounded versus what the tuner said.

[harrisonreed]

Are you sure that your band is not just really sharp? It doesn't matter what the tuner says if the band is playing in A445 and your tuner is set to A440. You'll be flat in relation to the ensemble. You might have great ears and you're just trusting that the band is actually in tune, or at least tuned to 440.

[AnthonyGTrombone]

Are you sure that your band is not just really sharp? It doesn't matter what the tuner says if the band is playing in A445 and your tuner is set to A440. You'll be flat in relation to the ensemble. You might have great ears and you're just trusting that the band is actually in tune, or at least tuned to 440.

In my humble opinion, I think I have pretty solid ears.
I do think the band is a little sharp. About as sharp as most pit orchestras and show bands are.
Mix that with vocalists and the pitch is flexible chord to chord.

As a younger cat I wanted to avoid opening with that, since the goal is how to deal with Euphonium intonation, which I got great advice on. I didn't want to get misconstrued into thinking I'm complaining about the band.

The intonation is tight within the group. I wouldn't have noticed if not for bringing out the tuner.
It's easy to line up on trombone, but getting up to the bands pitch has been difficult on the Euphonium.

That said, things lined up way better today. Smaller mouthpiece, in ears and more time to warm up the horn has me around 90% of the way there.

Pretty much all the advice on here has been golden.

[AndrewMeronek]

You hear euphonium through a different balance of ears and sound than the way you hear trombone.

This is definitely true, and also the right vs. left ears usually have a small difference in perceived pitch. Changing the bell location can be disorienting.

Along those thought lines, that's a great reason to practice playing trombone both right and left-handed. In ensembles, not just in the practice room.

[ngrinder]

Euphonium sucks. It's a very difficult instrument to play in tune. I've held two Broadway chairs with euphonium as a double, and boy, can it be cumbersome. The only thing to do is sit down with a tuner, find the tendencies with each note and valve combo, and make a conscious effort to apply what the tuner says to the ensemble. This is a great way to get very good base intonation on an axe. I promise things will be much easier when you can reliably play things at least nominally in tune with the tuner, it just takes a lot of time and repetition.

Also, the IEMs can be a real help with this - glad it's helping.

[AnthonyGTrombone]

Euphonium sucks. It's a very difficult instrument to play in tune. I've held two Broadway chairs with euphonium as a double, and boy, can it be cumbersome. The only thing to do is sit down with a tuner, find the tendencies with each note and valve combo, and make a conscious effort to apply what the tuner says to the ensemble. This is a great way to get very good base intonation on an axe. I promise things will be much easier when you can reliably play things at least nominally in tune with the tuner, it just takes a lot of time and repetition.

Also, the IEMs can be a real help with this - glad it's helping.

Emotionally it was difficult since I began my brass journey on Euphonium.
I didn't want any of the euph parts to get cut due to my shakey intonation, but the truth is it really is hard in the pit.
Yesterday I played it all on Euph and didn't get any comments so I'm either a lost cause or it got better lol.

I need to really sit down and explore all my alternates, some are definitely landmines.
I've managed to figure it out for this book, but I'm the future I can avoid some trouble if I can choose alternates on the fly based on what I'm hearing ans playing like we do on trombone.

[Kbiggs]

I’ve known quite a few trombonists who installed a mechanism on the main tuning slide on their euphoniums. It’s connected to a lever you can operate with your thumb to adjust the intonation.

Also, the IEMs can be a real help with this - glad it's helping.

What’s an IEM?

[Burgerbob]

What’s an IEM?

In Ear Monitor

[AnthonyGTrombone]

I’ve known quite a few trombonists who installed a mechanism on the main tuning slide on their euphoniums. It’s connected to a lever you can operate with your thumb to adjust the intonation.

Also, the IEMs can be a real help with this - glad it's helping.

What’s an IEM?

I have that installed on my Euphonium but only helps me lower the pitch. Which in most cases is what you want on Euphonium.
But in this case it won't help me get up to pitch unfortunately.
Still useful on the few notes that are sharp atm.