TromboneChat

Hi

I live in a small rural town. Not many choices of bands/orchestras to play in but I've found a wind band not too far away that are generally of a good standard.

When I joined there's a youngish (compared to me!) trombonist, say in his early 20s, so I took the 2nd seat. He's been playing for maybe three years. He does a lot for the band, sorting out the music; being he sound engineer for gigs; sorting out seating; generally organising things; etc., etc. He's very well liked and very very popular. He is disabled.

When he plays, his tonguing can be weak and draggy and his entries are quite often late, particularly on faster passages (you remember the beginners problem of not getting the note to speak quickly enough?).

During rehearsals the conductor often stops and tells us that the troms were late. 2nd time around is usually OK, but people look around at me sort-of accusingly and on one occasion shouted to me to "follow the beat". I know I'm a long way from a perfect player but I can generally play in time.

So this is the dilemma.

Do I smile sweetly and "suck it up", ensuring I play loud enough to drive him forward (but we rehearse in a small room and the conductor keeps telling us to reign it in) or do I throw my toys out the pram and tell them it's not me? But that would be churlish, bad manners and wouldn't be popular.

Tricky.

What would you in this situation?

If you like playing w the band continue. Talk to the conductor privately and tell him what’s going on.

It really bugs you so approach the conductor and share your thoughts. As for others sharing their opinions in such a matter, someone should approach them and tell them to cut it out because that is rude. In the mean time just ignore ignorant people.

If he was the only trombone player in the band until you arrived, then the rest of the group should already be fully aware of his weaknesses. The conductor, in particular, should know exactly what's going on; if not, that doesn't speak well for their competence as a conductor, does it?

How long have you been with the group?

Find a new band.

Do you want to make it better, or assign blame?
Ask the conductor to do a sectional rehearsal with the trombones. And/or do it yourself. And/or suggest lessons. If the guy is that dedicated, that shouldn't be a problem

^this^

Thanks for the thoughts.

Firstly, there are no other bands within a sensible distance, so I'm stuck with this if I want to play.

Before I joined the band he played very quietly so it's likely that nobody was really aware. I like to think I always play at the right(-ish) dynamic - and that was a shock to the band, in a very positive way - but since I've been there his playing is much stronger and confident, so the "issue" is more obvious.

I really don't want to assign blame, but just don't want to be the fall guy for someone else.

Mini-sectionals is a good idea. There's not much free time available but we should be able to squeeze 20 mins in.

.... and a quiet word with the conductor is due.

Cheers

I played professionally for over 30 years in all kinds of ensembles. When I technically retired I still had the urge to play some more even though I knew the groups that I played in wouldn't be in the same league as what I had previously experienced. A lot of players just "hang it up" and go on about their business but I just couldn't do that. I wound up playing in a semi half-assed big band and enjoyed it immensely ! It was either the joy of playing without the slightest infraction being called out by a conductor or the joy of playing for the most severe critic -- ME -- that made the experience one of total enjoyment. Did I hear the out of tune playing, rhythmic uncertainty and lack of blend ? Of course I did, but I received it all as a bunch of really nice guys doing the best that they could and focused on challenging myself to improve from my personal status quo. That is what I suggest that you do. If you really need to play to satisfy an internal urge, you should put the focus on personal improvement and not stir up a lot of resentment by making personal attacks on any of the other players. Believe me, any "secret" conversation with a conductor won't be a "secret" for long and the fallout will not be pleasant. Focus on yourself and your personal improvement within the context of the group and you may turn out to be the new principal trombonist !

2bobone wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:00 pm That is what I suggest that you do. If you really need to play to satisfy an internal urge, you should put the focus on personal improvement and not stir up a lot of resentment by making personal attacks on any of the other players. Believe me, any "secret" conversation with a conductor won't be a "secret" for long and the fallout will not be pleasant. Focus on yourself and your personal improvement within the context of the group and you may turn out to be the new principal trombonist !

I agree with this, 100%. Secrets don't stay secret and can create awkward situations that can make groups untenable.

These kinds of situations happen in the professional world too and can be super frustrating. I just played a session a few weeks ago that had a really out of tune tubist (I was playing bass bone as the only other low brass) with a really strong upper brass section. it was painful all around. Just did my best to play as well as possible and be as easy to play with as possible while being as polite as possible. First hornist and trumpet pulled me aside after to say thanks for handling that situation well and have called me for more work. People with good ears always hear what's going on and can hear when you're trying to make the situation better. I'd be hesitant to say something to the conductor unless you have a very good relationship- it's a really delicate can of worms.

I would have a polite word with anyone who yells stuff like that and just say that the section is aware, working to fix it, and that kind of behavior makes it more difficult.

The reason I asked how long the OP had been in the ensemble is that these things sometimes work themselves out over time. Eventually, the young man on first trombone will be absent, and the group will get to hear the OP play by himself. It'll take the truly obtuse a few go-rounds, but most of the group will hear it right away.

In a perfect world, the young man is truly dedicated to the group and will eventually take the initiative to resolve the issue himself.

content deleted by author

Play it correctly yourself and see if he catches on and follows you.

You noted he was disabled in some way.

If that is part of his playing difficulties, he may not be capable of doing better, and any attempts to help him improve may cause badly hurt feelings. And not just his, but the whole group's.

You're new here and have not been fully assimilated into the group. I'm inclined to think this may be one of those "never miss a chance to keep your mouth shut" situations.

Very useful advice.

Yes his disability is a factor. For example, he cannot double-tongue, so attempts to single-tongue those pesky semiquaver "fanfare-ish" passages and that drags the whole thing down. His disability and his determination to not let it stop him is one of the reasons I haven't said anything yet (..and also a reason I didn't take over the 1st seat)

Slightly changing the subj, he has a 'bone with an F plug, which he can't operate with his thumb. His Dad has rigged up a bass-drum peddle with a very long bowden cable connected to the valve, so he can operate it with his foot. Brilliant bit of lateral thinking.

As father of a disabled child, I would like to comment on this. (Even though my daughter will never be able to play any kind of musical instrument)

First of all I am sure you are handling and addressing this with the very best intentions to find a good way together and support the other trombone player.

What I experience with my own child, but also with other disabled people is that - while it is extremely important for society and generally speaking beneficial - it does request a degree of commitment and acceptance from the surrounding.
So I would like to further encourage to continue showing support, even if you may feel it limits yourself in some points.
Still it is absolutely good and I would appreciate this if it were my child, if in a small appropriate setting you try to find constructive ways to improve it. This could be sectionals - not with the goal to show the issue, but to improve together. This could also be getting to know each other better, agreeing on simplifying parts, encouraging to breath together. Or even offer joint warm-ups and practice sessions.

samopn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:28 am Slightly changing the subj, he has a 'bone with an F plug, which he can't operate with his thumb. His Dad has rigged up a bass-drum peddle with a very long bowden cable connected to the valve, so he can operate it with his foot. Brilliant bit of lateral thinking.

Sounds great!
I am not too good at these things, but also need to come to some unusual solutions for my daughter.
Would be great to see a picture at some point.

Would be great to see a picture at some point.

I'll try and take a picture. I'm sure he'll be ok with it

Not sure how relevant this is, but I had a similar situation in a community band with a baritone player that was always out of tune. After a month or so I asked him about tuning, and he showed me the one tuning slide that he moved when tuning the open note. He said that the instrument was always a bit wonky, and that he was saving up for a better one. I asked him why he didn't also tune his valves with the individual slides, and I got a blank stare. Turns out he didn't know about the OTHER tuning slides on the instrument. 3 minutes later he sounded worlds better.

I know that's not relevant to a trombone, but just a fun story I thought I would share.

MStarke wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:51 am ...
Sounds great!
I am not too good at these things, but also need to come to some unusual solutions for my daughter.
Would be great to see a picture at some point.

It might be easier to make a second finger trigger for a single-valve horn.

Ozzlefinch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:58 am ... I asked him why he didn't also tune his valves with the individual slides, and I got a blank stare. Turns out he didn't know about the OTHER tuning slides on the instrument. ...

I have played a lot more tuba than trombone. And I have to say that my direct impression and experience in community bands I've played in is that very few of the brass players either (a) realize that their valve circuits can/should be tuned individually or in aggregates, or (b) take the trouble to do this or view it as important. I tend to attribute this to the quality of their music education (particularly in early years) rather than simply to idiocy.

Ozzlefinch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:58 am I asked him why he didn't also tune his valves with the individual slides, and I got a blank stare. Turns out he didn't know about the OTHER tuning slides on the instrument. 3 minutes later he sounded worlds better.

I know that's not relevant to a trombone, but just a fun story I thought I would share.

For tuning, I think we on the trombone really have an advantage over all other brass players, because we can tune any note on the fly as we're constantly moving the biggest tuning slide in the world with our right hand.

One of the best things I ever learned about playing in tune was when I had a teacher who told me to just push my tuning slide in all the way and leave it there, and learn to play in tune that way. Really made me focus on the sound rather than mechanically playing each note where I understood the position to be. It got me away from the mechanics and made me focus completely on the pitch.

Trombones have lots of disadvantages, but one of our greatest advantages is being able to play every note perfectly in tune, every time, no matter where the pitch is.

A bit of a delayed postscript to this thread about the draggy 1st trombonist.

The other week he wasn't at a rehearsal so it did the 1st part.

Quite a number of people came up to me and told me how well I was playing blah blah.

I wasn't playing any better than I normally do, but, most modestly, they were hearing the 1st played "properly" for the first time.

Just goes to show.

That's great. Maybe folks will understand where the issue lies, now. And in any case, you got to play first and show your stuff without fighting against a struggling player, and I'll bet that felt pretty good.

But this is the thing with community bands: It's a communal experience, not a meritocracy, and thank goodness for that because we need places for folks like your first player to play. You have a disabled guy who does a lot to help the band. He's an asset. You're not going to "fix" this "problem." Indeed, the only problem is your frustration. And now that the band has heard the section with just you playing, that should help in terms of others' perceptions.

I hope that in the 13 months since you started this thread you've found some level of peace. I know how frustrating it can be to be the better player stuck on second and have to grapple with a struggling first player. What do you even do? Do you follow him or go your own way? How do you deal with the glares and side-eye glances you get when he messes up?

Good on you for sticking it out this past year. As this year has no doubt demonstrated, it's probably not going to get better. Your solution is inside your head. It's how you grapple with the reality, and that's difficult for folks who strive for excellence. I think it takes a certain amount of letting go and accepting imperfection, while also finding the joy in your section mate's efforts despite his disability. Personally, from your description I admire him. How many of us would deal with playing the trombone with a disability as well as he does?

I wonder if he'd be willing to pass the first part to you now and then. If it's only the two of you, a common thing people do is to alternate playing first every other piece, so you both get a crack at the fun stuff. Maybe after all this time you can suggest that?

Reading this thread it has some parallels to a community band I sometimes help out. In that case the first (and only regular) trombonist is a loyal and committed member of the band, and especially since the two other regular trombonists retired it hasn’t been easy for him. I don’t believe he is disabled but he struggles with most aspects of playing.

The conductor has an exceptional ear and is a very fine trombonist himself, he will regularly spend time in rehearsal trying to help this player. From what I observe, this tends to deliver some short-term benefit for the duration of the impromptu public sectional but by the next run through the benefit evaporates, leading to frustration all around. Other members of the band suggest that he just doesn’t have the motivation to improve and seems to not practice at home, despite having the time and means to do so.

I have found the best way when I’m helping out is to leave him on the 1st part, trying to encourage him, give him cues him for solo parts and to some extent lead from a lower part on timing and style etc. I sometimes offer to say if he gets tired we can swap a couple of parts, which tends to work well as it gives a way to pass on the trickier stuff without damaging any egos.

If I just let it go and enjoyed his effort without trying to bring some semblance of order to the gigs, it isn’t really fair on the rest of the band. As much as I don’t want to hurt the feelings of the trombonist, he isn’t the only one in the group. Maybe it shouldn’t be my job as a guest to stick my oar in but I’m 99% sure the trombonist in question appreciates it as he is always happy to see me at gigs and the rest of the band certainly appreciate a more solid trombone section.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 4:18 pm I have found the best way when I’m helping out is to leave him on the 1st part, trying to encourage him, give him cues him for solo parts and to some extent lead from a lower part on timing and style etc.

We call this "topping from the bottom." LOL! I do not recommend it. It's not your job, not your responsibility, not your circus and not your monkey. If they insist on having an inferior player play the lead part when a better player is available, then everyone gets to experience the results of that decision. You're not doing anyone a favor by babysitting him.

If I just let it go and enjoyed his effort without trying to bring some semblance of order to the gigs, it isn’t really fair on the rest of the band. As much as I don’t want to hurt the feelings of the trombonist, he isn’t the only one in the group. Maybe it shouldn’t be my job as a guest to stick my oar in but I’m 99% sure the trombonist in question appreciates it as he is always happy to see me at gigs and the rest of the band certainly appreciate a more solid trombone section.

You're right it's not your job, especially since, as you say, none of the remedies "stick" beyond the moment and he doesn't practice though he has the time. Perhaps as you "help out," they should make you the first chair trombonist, even if you don't make all the rehearsals. I've never heard a band sound good by putting the worst player on the lead part.

You talk about the situation being "not fair," well, how fair is it to the audience to have him not practicing and stinking up the joint on first?

I believe in a meritocracy in community bands: the best player there gets the first part. Most will say, "but it's just for fun!" But then, I've always found that sounding good is a lot more fun than sounding bad. So...

Signed,
One Who Has Had Her Fill of Carrying Terrible Players Who Insist On Bogarting The Lead Book

In some defense of the guy, he's been to all the rehearsals and been playing the 1st part. He probably doesn't feel comfortable reading another part at the gig. I think leading from behind is a good technique to not ruffle too many feathers. The overall result may be better than SuperBone hogging the lead and the regular guy sightreading a second part.

If you are all sightreading the gig, then SuperBone taking the lead is a good policy.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 5:57 pm In some defense of the guy, he's been to all the rehearsals and been playing the 1st part. He probably doesn't feel comfortable reading another part at the gig. I think leading from behind is a good technique to not ruffle too many feathers. The overall result may be better than SuperBone hogging the lead and the regular guy sightreading a second part.

If you are all sightreading the gig, then SuperBone taking the lead is a good policy.

SuperBone??? LOL!

Yeah, you might have a point.

Understand:: I've been in all of those positions. I was the guy playing lead when they brought in a couple of subs who could play me into the ground. I was SuperBone who could play rings around the others. When I come in as the outsider, I try to keep my nose clean and not make waves. Unless I have been practicing with the group and can fit in perfectly, something that is often not possible on a reading gig. I have been brought in on a lead situation, but usually as a last minute sub I will play whatever is needed, including 2nd bassoon parts or French Horn parts. And when I realize the principal is having trouble with a solo I might "ghost" it behind him.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 5:16 pm
I believe in a meritocracy in community bands: the best player there gets the first part. Most will say, "but it's just for fun!" But then, I've always found that sounding good is a lot more fun than sounding bad. So...

Signed,
One Who Has Had Her Fill of Carrying Terrible Players Who Insist On Bogarting The Lead Book

Hot take: Pros should play for money. If you go to a community band for free, you don't need to be on first part to vastly improve the group.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 8:32 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 5:16 pm
I believe in a meritocracy in community bands: the best player there gets the first part. Most will say, "but it's just for fun!" But then, I've always found that sounding good is a lot more fun than sounding bad. So...

Signed,
One Who Has Had Her Fill of Carrying Terrible Players Who Insist On Bogarting The Lead Book

Hot take: Pros should play for money. If you go to a community band for free, you don't need to be on first part to vastly improve the group.

Point of order! I ask permission to revise and extend my meritocracy remark to say it doesn't matter who plays what so long as everyone can play their parts, but if one person can play and one cannot, then all other things being equal the one who can should play first. Better?

I often get paid to play, but I play for the love of it, like every community player. I don't even try to make a living at it. I do pro work because that's where the best musicians are and there is no sex or drugs in the world that feel better than playing with excellent pros. But I really don't care what part I play so long as everyone can play.

I'm currently full-time in three community groups: a symphonic wind band (I play bass trombone in a really good section); a big band (lead); and a trombone choir in which I got stuck on the 1st book because I can play the high notes for two hours straight, but which I may switch to bass trombone starting next month since Jeff Reynolds is making noises about hanging it up. (Then again, he has been making such noises for a while.)

My favorite pro group right now is Slide, which is four trombones and a rhythm section. I play 1st in that group. I play 3rd in a pro big band that has the exact same trombone players as Slide and from which Slide was formed. I quit the pro symphony, in which I played 2nd. In most other repeating pro groups I'm the only trombone or there is no set hierarchy. Oh, I take that back. I play in a pro vintage authentic '20s-'30s pre-swing orchestra (a big band with strings, vocals, tuba, and a banjo), and they added me even though the section was full, and they either write a part just for me or I double the 2nd player. Not ideal, but man, they added me just to get me, so I'm not complaining. And it's a fun group that has an annual European tour. Next year it's London, Italy, Greece, and Vienna, so I don't care what part I play!

So, my previous remarks thereby appropriately revised and extended, I cede the remainder of my time and apologize for the hijack.

I have, like Bruce, been in various positions of ability relative to some guest players in amateur groups and am definitely not a superbone!

I second Dana‘s amended suggestion that it doesn‘t really matter who plays what if all can play their parts.

When it comes to a clear difference in ability, I tend to think that unless a threshold has been crossed of really letting down the whole group, it is always better for a concert band to have have one regular trombonist than none. I would understand Dana‘s point of view in the context of highly competitive amateur groups with a large player pool but for a band which struggles to keep one trombonist, it‘s not worth the small benefit to the group during one concert to push the regular member to 2nd when a better guest arrives, if that risks their regular trombonist losing all interest and giving up completely.

I think I‘ll continue as a topper from the bottom for the time being.

I suppose it could be worse, I could be working in my favourite named trade from back home as a „saggar maker‘s bottom knocker“
https://www.thepotteries.org/bottle_kiln/saggar.htm

If the conductor is ok with it, you should be too. At least in a community group. Anywhere other than a community group the conductor wouldn't be ok with it.

When I wasn't happy with the community groups, I didn't bother the conductor or the lame first player, I just started my own quartet. Everybody's happy.

It's a good thing that your arrival in the band has made the other trombonist play louder. A person who plays appropriately loud can hear and discern his/her timing, so if he previously played quietly and shied from being heard, his change in dynamics-attitude could actually help him improve his tonguing and timing.

I have had disabled students and conducted orchestras especially for disabled, and most of the people had lots of capabilities to improve and change in the fields where they were not physically impaired.

From that experience, I'd guess that this guy's poor timing and soft playing comes more from a lack of confidence, support and adequate schooling for his situation, than from actual physical impairment - but that is just a guess from having worked with people with very similar problems.