TromboneChat

What should i look for in a jazz mouthpiece? Id like to start playing lead trombone in big band, and i know what horn i want, but idk how to choose a mouthpiece. What kind of sounds should i look for and are there any specific mouthpieces i should try?

Your current mouthpiece should be a good start. We generally don't choose mouthpieces based on some "norm".

Sometimes a shallower version of your current mouthpiece can help with high notes, but just because [insert trombone god here] plays something doesn't necessarily mean you should too.

Austin4203 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 12:41 pm What should i look for in a jazz mouthpiece? Id like to start playing lead trombone in big band, and i know what horn i want, but idk how to choose a mouthpiece. What kind of sounds should i look for and are there any specific mouthpieces i should try?

For starters, I see that you are currently playing a large bore tenor and bass trombone. I assume that you'll be playing in big band at school, and your band director recommended you for lead trombone? Mouthpieces for small bore trombones usually range in size from 6 1/2AL to 12C. It's just a matter of choosing what you're comfortable with.

What horn will you get?

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 2:34 pm

Austin4203 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 12:41 pm What should i look for in a jazz mouthpiece? Id like to start playing lead trombone in big band, and i know what horn i want, but idk how to choose a mouthpiece. What kind of sounds should i look for and are there any specific mouthpieces i should try?

For starters, I see that you are currently playing a large bore tenor and bass trombone. I assume that you'll be playing in big band at school, and your band director recommended you for lead trombone? Mouthpieces for small bore trombones usually range in size from 6 1/2AL to 12C. It's just a matter of choosing what you're comfortable with.

I have been playing bass bone in jazz for the last three years, and tenor for concert. I'm graduating this year and decided in college i want to play lead in jazz band.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 2:42 pm What horn will you get?

Im hoping i can save up the money to get a king 3b/2b. specifically silver if possible. Ive played one a lot in schmitt music and its my dream horn for sure. Ive tried a lot of other horns too, including gold brass versions which are amazing as well. But the silver 3b was definitely my favorite.

You can really dive into this question, but you can also take a shortcut: Listen for a section in a band you really like and copy their equipment.

I mean, why not? You're not rooted to anything right now. If you learn something that leads you to change, do that later. No need to worry about it now. There's already a huge amount to learn about big band and lead without wrestling with equipment details.

You don't choose a mouthpiece, the mouthpiece chooses you!

Buy the 3B. What does it come with? A Bach 6 and 1/2 AL? Not the first mpc to come to mind for lead but there will be many who’ll disagree. Doug undoubtedly has something that will work well. A couple of less expensive alternatives that come to mind are a Bach 6 and 3/4 or 7C or maybe a Yamaha Nils Landgren.

For lead I prefer something like bach 11-12c.

If you're going to buy your trombone from Schmitt Music, have Keith Hilson (their trombone expert) help you to select a mouthpiece. He's got good ears!

^
Ask Keith his advice.

6 1/2AL, 7C, 11C all work well on the 3B. All are easy to come by. Record yourself and see which one sounds best.

One word - Marcinkiewicz. The original, not the custom or artist lines. Download their size chart and find a comparison chart online.
Size 11 is very popular for lead playing. 9 is good too, bigger and my own preference. They all deserve a look.

Im hoping i can save up the money to get a king 3b/2b. specifically silver if possible. Ive played one a lot in schmitt music and its my dream horn for sure. Ive tried a lot of other horns too, including gold brass versions which are amazing as well. But the silver 3b was definitely my favorite.

I have a great used 2B with a Tempo bell, nickel silver. This one feels a bit more like a 3B since Tempo bells have a bigger throat. No dents, very decent lacquer, silky slide. Can ship in the US for $975 total, PM me if interested. No case. Can also throw in an excellent Jerome Callet mouthpiece; extremely rare and like new condition. Size is close to 6.5A but plays punchier.

demo some find a compromise between tone and high playing... a Schilke 47B or bach 7c might be a good start

I agree with the recommendation that you will probably find something between Bach 6 1/2 AL and Bach 12C. I also agree that it is individual so what fits one player may not fit another. We often get these kinds of questions here that both has a definate answer because we probably have one mouthpiece that fits us from years of own experiments but at the same time it is very likely NOT the best for another player. You could do as suggested to get some idea what you want and that is to listen to the best lead players on record/in person and try to play their mouthpiece. That's one way to do it. Chances are big it is not a good fit for you because either that player has extraordinary chops and has years of experiments to find out what mouthpiece he choose or he is one of those who just kept the mouthpiece that came with the horn. If this is true for the best players we can understand there is no straight answer to this question, but you asked what mouthpieces to try. I suppose Bach 6 1/2 AL to Bach 12C covers that bunch. That approach is try everything and keep what works. You will then end up with a lot of mouthpieces that work to choose from, and you might go back and fourth between them for the rest of your life. You will change physically and the music you play will change and what you like will also most likely change. Yet another option is to buy the mouthpiece that someone who knows your playing recommend, an advice that many starters follow. Personally I think this is what you should do at this stage, because you need to start somewhere and your teacher is the one who knows your playing and your needs best (if not you). That is IF he knows how to play trombone or else you just need a professional who can hear you and see you and give you advice in person. Later you can try everything and use what works.

Personally I have more than 100 mouthpieces and they ALL work, and today I have reasons for about 20% of them because of different bones/styles of music/boresizes/parts such as lead, solo, bass etc. I could sell the rest but choose to keep them all because I'll never know. I have changed my mind many times.

Most of my mouthpieces for lead are Bach 11C sized so that is something I like. That size fits my face (but most do) and most important is it gives the sound I want on lead. In some contexts I change to my second mouthpiece which is a Yamaha Nils Landren signature. This is great for solos and in mics. I use a Shires MG-signature when I play classical music on my .500 bore. This is how I consider mouthpiece today but it wasn't when I was young, then I took the advice from my teacher and played what he recommended until he recommended something else. I had NO clue. Good luck!

/Tom

One other point: costlier is not necessarily better. If you really have no idea what you want or need, get a bunch of cheap (probably used) mouthpieces and try them. Once you have a good idea where you are headed, then look at the more expensive models to see if they are better.

Note that a lot of lead players seem to gravitate to small mouthpieces at the expense of their lower register. If you plan to play a bunch of different trombone roles, don't go too small.

I was primarily a bass trombone player and when I needed to play lead or Dixieland on a small bore I played a Bach 4C.

You have to really find the sound you a looking for. What is it, J J., Frank, Dick Shearer? Steinemyer. Matt Neiss. Curtis, Steve Davis? So many others. The bore of the instrument and mouthpiece will dictate the sound. You have to experiment. On another note, considering Bach, and the size standard, I find the Benge mouthpieces that are similar, to have a better rim feel. Once you reach your conclusion, please post some wavefiles!

Yamaha mouthpieces are pretty inexpensive and can be helpful in dialing in your size. I like 46b, 47, and Landgren. The Landgren is actually a pretty nice all-rounder, if you can tolerate the rim.
There are a lot of good options available used on the TromboneChat marketplace, too.
That said, nothing beats careful study and practice, ideally with a teacher and good role models. And as B Guttman said, start with your current mouthpiece.

Austin4203 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 12:41 pm What should i look for in a jazz mouthpiece? Id like to start playing lead trombone in big band, and i know what horn i want, but idk how to choose a mouthpiece. What kind of sounds should i look for and are there any specific mouthpieces i should try?

Denis Wick, in the second edition of his book "Trombone Technique" for jazz, recommends the Bach 12C and 11C, as well as the DW 12SC, 10CS and 7CS.

I've played lead trombone in professional big bands (Buddy Rich, Harry James, Bill Watrous, Al Hirt, Les Hooper, many others) for longer than you've been alive. In all that time and still today the Bach 11C has always been a go-to choice for lead trombonists all over North America. It's hard to go wrong with that mouthpiece for lead playing. So I'd say start there. You can play that mouthpiece your whole life. And if after a while you decide you want a deeper or brighter tone, more high or low range, more flexibility or more depth, you can adjust from there. But the 11C is a great starting point. I play a customized 11C today, in fact.

I second the 11c comment. Out of curiosity I recently picked up a cheap Vincent Bach Corp. 11c on ebay... It plays easy but has a much better sound than the a 7c... which is kinda strange because it is a slightly smaller mouthpiece than the 7c

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 9:04 am I play a customized [Bach] 11C today, in fact.

Dana,
Can't do much better than your sound on the recordings you have posted - this clearly works for you.
What did you have done to your Bach 11C to "customize" it?
Do you have a backup, "just in case"?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2024 4:36 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 9:04 am I play a customized [Bach] 11C today, in fact.

Dana,
Can't do much better than your sound on the recordings you have posted - this clearly works for you.
What did you have done to your Bach 11C to "customize" it?
Do you have a backup, "just in case"?

Thanks so much for the kind words.

My current mouthpiece is a gold plated Artisan 11C with the bore drilled out a bit. My backup is just a standard 11C. But I’m not very fussy about mouthpieces, really. One is as good as another. I play on so many different mouthpieces with different horns that I just make sure my embouchure stays the same across them all, and I’m good to go on any of them. My belief is that the mouthpiece isn’t that important, because everything important happens before the mouthpiece.

I’m sure that’s heresy in this forum, though.

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:06 pm I play on so many different mouthpieces with different horns that I just make sure my embouchure stays the same across them all, and I’m good to go on any of them.

Thank, you! This is also how I see it. I'm also that flexible with mouthpiece choice and I'm not hurt by it and I do not think my playing suffers. As I learned to be this flexible I noticed I became a better player over all so can not see how this could be bad. If you can do it, then do it.

My choice often is a regular standard Bach 11C but own many 11c-ish mouthpieces that also work as well as other sizes. Different context is what makes me change sometimes or special lip condition that might happen unexpectedly with swollen lips, happens rarely but do happen.

/Tom

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:06 pm My belief is that the mouthpiece isn’t that important, because everything important happens before the mouthpiece.

I’m sure that’s heresy in this forum, though.

Definitely heresy, but more significantly it may be broadly destructive to the worldwide economy if it results in a kind of "emperor's new clothes" effect (recall the Lehman Brothers disaster of 2008) and crashes both the primary and secondary mouthpiece markets.

Sound is of course the criterion. (Then endurance, but that's more a being in shape issue.)

It's worth thinking about, what kind of sound? and why?

On lead, you'll want to have lots of control of the "bite" where the horn lights up with harmonics. That's where the accenting happens. Some pieces and horns light up at relatively low volumes, others have to be blown hard to light up. The 11c lights up just over mf for most players. That means a section can play mf and accent in f and give the line the kick it needs. This seems to be the sweet spot established by the great big bands. But few bands do it this way now. It's far more frequent to hear big horns and big pieces and over the top volume with little accent but lots of BAH BAH. These bands lose both the subtlety and the drive, but such a statement rarely computes.

The same issues prevail in solo, but individual preference rules.

I also play a modified 11C. It gives me a better sound than a 7c. I adjusted the length of the shank slightly to fit my horn better.

It is worth trying 12C through 6.5 sized mouthpieces. Do some lip slurs and chromatic scales. The right mouthpiece will let you play all over the horn with a good sound and a minimum of movement. For me, if a mouthpiece is too big, I shift around as I move between ranges. If it is too small I can’t focus my sound and my range is restricted.

Once you have the size dialed in, I think it is worth doing a paper test to see if adjusting shank length can improve your sound.

For me and a lot of players it's the opposite. Too small a mouthpiece makes you shift to get through range, and in a bad way. You can get away with doing things wrong when you're young, but I work with a lot of older players who start having problems due to exactly that, and they have no idea why they're suddenly having response and other playng problems.

But all of that depends on embouchure type. Correct mechanics for one type is totally the opposite for another type.