TromboneChat

Bb and A# are exactly the same note.

Yes but what about Db and C#?

Db minor is Db E Ab. Etc. Guys from Berklee don't get that.

Yep.

I can’t tell if this is serious or not.

But an A# that’s the 3rd of an F# major chord is not the same note as a Bb that’s the 5th of an Eb major chord.

In 12TET they are the same

brtnats wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 10:49 am I can’t tell if this is serious or not.

But an A# that’s the 3rd of an F# major chord is not the same note as a Bb that’s the 5th of an Eb major chord.

No, but an A# that's the 3rd of an F# major chord is the same not as a Bb that's the 3rd of a Gb major chord.

And it's supposed to be a lighthearted thread, while still stating a truth!

To be excessively pedantic, they are not the same note because they are perceived differently by the performer. A piece written in Bb will necessarily be performed differently than something in A# because few, if any, people ever are equally versed in reading in the key of Bb as they are A#

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:32 am To be excessively pedantic, they are not the same note because they are perceived differently by the performer. A piece written in Bb will necessarily be performed differently than something in A# because few, if any, people ever are equally versed in reading in the key of Bb as they are A#

Yup, that was excessively pedantic, all right.

But as long as the only note I need to play in that piece (typical of many trombone parts ) is A#, I can play the stuffing out of it.

Y'all would argue over just about anything.

Awhile back song leaded introduced a new song in Gb. Jokingly told him brass instruments can’t play in that key, it’s gotta be F#, but I’ll try it today. After the service I told the leader I was only kidding, it doesn’t matter to me what key I play in. Did same song the following week in F#…boy did the guitar players moan! Been in Gb ever since.

I think there es absolutely no reason to write in a key that would require an A sharp. it just confuses people unnecessarily and our brain capacities are obviously (very) limited. Just play an A and point to your neighbour.

officermayo wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:53 am Y'all would argue over just about anything.

No we wouldn’t!

Are Bb and A# really the same?

A. Both are played with the same slide position or valving
B. In the same octave they sound identical
C. Embouchure is the same for both, again if in the same octave.
D. Conclusion: This is a trick question!
E. Observations:
Really makes the guitar players think about where to put their capo
Drummer drools equally in either key

BrassSection wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 2:02 pm Are Bb and A# really the same?
...
This is a trick question!

It wasn't a question at all until YOU asked it!

officermayo wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:53 am Y'all would argue over just about anything.

“How did he drown in a puddle?”

It was a well, actually.

Cheers,
Andy

sure about that?

In B major, the A# will be considerably higher than a Bb in Bb major. They are not the same note.

You could argue they they are the same because Cb major's Bb will be just as high as the A# in B. But Cb major is far, far less commonly used than B major.

In 12TET they're exactly the same.

... or in 1/4 comma meantone with pure major thirds, A# is considerably lower than Bb.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 3:04 pm In B major, the A# will be considerably higher than a Bb in Bb major. They are not the same note.

You could argue they they are the same because Cb major's Bb will be just as high as the A# in B. But Cb major is far, far less commonly used than B major.

In 12TET they're exactly the same.

Oh, you're such a trickster! It's the same note. It only changes when the harmonic function of the note changes, and when that happens they are still the exact same note.

You've got a false comparison there. You need to compare like to like. In B major the A# will be exactly the same as the Bb in Cb major, because they are the same note serving the same harmonic function.

I did say that. In Cb major, the Bb will be as high as A# in B major. That's for melodic, Pythagorean playing, btw.

The premise is kind of like posting a statement that says "If you put ice on your water, you risk watering it down". Technically true, but....

Like Einstein said:

E=Fb

"If it looks like a duck but clucks like a chicken..."

Interesting topic (even if meant originally as a joke). But yeah, nope. On a piano they're the same note, and there are contexts where they might be the same. And yeah sure you might argue that Bb in Gb major and A# in F# major are the same (although one might counter-argue that that's contingent on your F# and Gb being the same, which is absolutely not a given, because we could have the same question about them! ). I don't think that's a super useful comparison though. For this reason:

If you average out all the A# you've ever played, the majority will have been major thirds, that you needed to lower a lot. And when do you get a D# chord or an F double # minor? Virtually never. For Bb, you'll have relatively rarely played it as a major third, but will have played a ton of them as minor thirds (which need to be raised a ton) and as fifths. So, if you average out all of the A#'s you'll play in your life and all the Bb's, assuming you played all of them always in tune, you'd find that your average A# is indeed going to be much, much lower than the average Bb. Do that exercise with all the sharps and flats and you'll see the same pattern. Sharps tend to be low and flats tend to be high.

Quick aside: In the majority of the playing I do, we use meantone tuning (where everything is tuned for all major thirds to be pure without needing spontaneous adjustments). We have separate keys on some organs for the most commonly needed enharmonics Eb-D# and G#-Ab (and sometimes also Bb-A#), because they are, quite literally, not the same notes. To be precise, in that tuning system they are all 41 cents apart, or almost a quarter tone. You can do some really nice microtonal stuff with it! When we don't have the split keys, then we can't fudge it by using the other enharmonic, we just don't have the note. No D# key? No B major chord. In that tuning system, a trombone does not have 7 positions by the way, it has 4 diatonic or basically 11 chromatic positions.

And that's all just talking about pitch. But he difference in the typical roles you find them in is also reflected in voice leading and behaviour of the notes within the musical discourse. I'll offer yet another perspective: I play mostly at a=466, a half-step higher than 440. My first position on tenor is A, at the same pitch frequency as your equal tempered Bb and A# on a piano. But musically, my A is very much not a Bb or an A#, and neither is any other note compared to 440. The same pitches behave differently musically. Even on a technical level, the most typical slide motions are completely different than what felt usual at 440.


So, if on average two notes behave differently, fill different roles in the harmony and phrasing, and have different effective pitches, then why would you not say they are different notes?

This thread is a great example of Cunningham’s Law.

Just to maybe share a bit of my past nerdliness:



Quarter comma meantone refers to the difference in interval of a 5-limit major third and the major third formed from stacking 4 perfect fifths. That difference is the comma, and thus the perfect fifth is "de-tuned" by a quarter of that so the stack of 4 perfect fifths ends up being the 5-limit major third.

The accidental notation I used there is Sagittal.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:25 am And it's supposed to be a lighthearted thread, while still stating a truth!

There are no lighthearted threads. There are only lighthearted people.

I don't even know what those notes are.

Working with the same idea, is a Bb in bass clef the same note as one in alto clef? Depending on your fluency with clefs and leger lines, one might be a lot more confident than the other.

This is why I advocate writing all trombone music on the piano great staff, or however much of it is needed for the range of the piece. Very few of us play above the treble clef top line. Bass players might venture below the bass clef G line, but rarely below a couple leger lines for most of us, and they're used to it. This eliminates learning clefs.

On every fourth Wednesday of the month, Bb is the identical pitch to A#, but on the first three Wednesdays they're both the same. Hope that clears it up.

tbdana wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 11:27 am On every fourth Wednesday of the month, Bb is the identical pitch to A#, but on the first three Wednesdays they're both the same. Hope that clears it up.

Yup, remember that's only when played in a booth, in the dark, in the back.

Love this thread, needed some lighthearted stuff today.

When I was a saxophone player I could play F# and C# really well. But now I seem to have trouble with them and generally play Gb and Db instead. Also, I'm not sure that I can play Cb at all and have to fake it with B natural.

tbdana wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 11:27 am On every fourth Wednesday of the month, Bb is the identical pitch to A#, but on the first three Wednesdays they're both the same. Hope that clears it up.

And in July, which has five Wednesdays?

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 3:05 am "If it looks like a duck but clucks like a chicken..."

...

So, if on average two notes behave differently, fill different roles in the harmony and phrasing, and have different effective pitches, then why would you not say they are different notes?

Not to cast aspersions on the rest of us, but Maximilien's erudition and extensive explanation of this subject are WAY beyond us mere trombonists!

Maybe more interesting as a theory? Composing and writing music. Playing? It's the same note on a piano. For us sliding through the life it can depend on chord and melodic function. For me it's best just to feel the function of the note wherever it shows up. And hope I hit the 3rd position

Leif

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 12:55 pm When I was a saxophone player I could play F# and C# really well. But now I seem to have trouble with them and generally play Gb and Db instead. Also, I'm not sure that I can play Cb at all and have to fake it with B natural.

It's a crutch, man.

bitbckt wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 4:39 am This thread is a great example of Cunningham’s Law.

I know right, I'm TONS of fun at parties!

Has anybody ever seen an A# or Gb tuning fork?

Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?

Our piano tuner uses them…I never looked thru his set though.

And what does your tuner show if you play an A# ?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:53 pm Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?

No, all the ones I've seen are post-menopausal.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:53 pm Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?

I've been carrying one in my bag for the last decade, which I don't recall using more than twice ever.
It doesn't specify the note, just the frequency, 415Hz. Not sure if that's an A or an Ab? Or is it a G#? or a G? Who knows!

Used a tuning fork for years on a radar…

…but that’s a horse of a different color…

BrassSection wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:03 pm Has anybody ever seen an A# or Gb tuning fork?

Our handbell set has those notes marked both ways.

One of my ringers will say, "is the piece where I need the hashtag F?"

Here’s my unwanted opinion. I’ve played a professors orchestra piece that was essentially a study in just-intonation. Constant F# and Gb in very slightly different spots, same with Bb and A# and any harmonic equivalents. I actually had to adjust my 1st position to be half an inch from the rubber stops so that I can raise A# in a F# major chord. Also double F#’s that were in a quite sharp 4th position

The composer would yell if we weren’t perfectly and justly in tune (at the brass, I’ve been told string players are taught this incessantly from the start)

In this instance, they were different.

BrassSection wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 2:03 pm Has anybody ever seen an A# or Gb tuning fork?

A# tuning fork? Yes. I’ve seen sets with all 12 tones in naturals or sharps. Same with handbell sets in church.

Years ago I conducted the musical "South Pacific". At one point there was a Gb harp glissando that segued between one song and the next. When it came to that point in dress rehearsal the harpist remained silent. During the break I pointed out that she needed to play this. She said she couldn't change her pedals fast enough between the two song keys to do this. Not knowing anything about harp limitations, I began searching for a pivot chord between the two keys that might work for her. Frustrated, at one point I jokingly said "Well, how about F#. She replied "I can do that". Dumfounded, I merely replied "OK, do that".

cigmar wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 6:13 am Years ago I conducted the musical "South Pacific". At one point there was a Gb harp glissando that segued between one song and the next. When it came to that point in dress rehearsal the harpist remained silent. During the break I pointed out that she needed to play this. She said she couldn't change her pedals fast enough between the two song keys to do this. Not knowing anything about harp limitations, I began searching for a pivot chord between the two keys that might work for her. Frustrated, at one point I jokingly said "Well, how about F#. She replied "I can do that". Dumfounded, I merely replied "OK, do that".

Oy.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 10:55 am

cigmar wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 6:13 am Years ago I conducted the musical "South Pacific". At one point there was a Gb harp glissando that segued between one song and the next. When it came to that point in dress rehearsal the harpist remained silent. During the break I pointed out that she needed to play this. She said she couldn't change her pedals fast enough between the two song keys to do this. Not knowing anything about harp limitations, I began searching for a pivot chord between the two keys that might work for her. Frustrated, at one point I jokingly said "Well, how about F#. She replied "I can do that". Dumfounded, I merely replied "OK, do that".

Oy.

That actually makes sense! Harpists have 7 pedals (for the 7 letter names of pitches). Each pedal has a neutral position for the naturals, a flat position in one direction and a sharp position in the opposite position. The difficulty of the key modulation depends on how many pedals need to be shifted.

For the sake of making sense out of this, let’s assume that the key of the piece directly before the G-flat arpeggios was E major (4 sharps). This means that four pedals are in the sharp position and the other three pedals are in neutral position. A shift to G-flat major would involve moving all 7 pedals, 3 of them (C, G and D) moving two positions (essentially 10 shifts). If you go from E major to F# major, only 2 pedals (A and E) need to move 1 position each.

The problem in that particular situation is two-fold: 1. The editor of the harp book should have known that and should have written it in F# major. 2. The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 12:55 pm

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 10:55 am

Oy.

That actually makes sense! Harpists have 7 pedals (for the 7 letter names of pitches). Each pedal has a neutral position for the naturals, a flat position in one direction and a sharp position in the opposite position. The difficulty of the key modulation depends on how many pedals need to be shifted.

For the sake of making sense out of this, let’s assume that the key of the piece directly before the G-flat arpeggios was E major (4 sharps). This means that four pedals are in the sharp position and the other three pedals are in neutral position. A shift to G-flat major would involve moving all 7 pedals, 3 of them (C, G and D) moving two positions (essentially 10 shifts). If you go from E major to F# major, only 2 pedals (A and E) need to move 1 position each.

The problem in that particular situation is two-fold: 1. The editor of the harp book should have known that and should have written it in F# major. 2. The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!

I never knew any of that. Very enlightening. Thanks for the education.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 12:55 pm
The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!

Trombone and tuba have acquired the reputation of being rather dim. In some cases, rightly so.

This harpist, however, is in a class all to themselves.