TromboneChat

I started on a ultimate brass wang wei L and now i used a greg black 0G

Basically my question is what mouthpiece out there can help low and loud and possibly “ripping metal” sound

Ive heard the ultimate brass curan crusher is “offensively responsive/loud” and I've been thinking of getting that but i first want to see my options before buying,so im looking for a mouthpiece thats like extra deep and made to just rip low notes

Any information/experience trying mouthpieces would be great help
Thank you for reading!

Edit:as a new person in this website i can see yalls points and i shouldve been more clear on what i will use it for,
For pep games,marching band since very few melodies sound cool an octave lower, to add more about myself i play bass trombone for my high school and going thru that “low farts” phase, will i ever leave it? Idk.At the moment i can only shake walls with pedal D and my lil immature bass trombone brain is kinda trying to get to the point where my teacher tells me “thats too much” since last year he would never get tired of my pedal tones unless if it didn't make sense

Hence why i was eyeballing the “crusher mouthpiece” and wanted to know what r similar to it/ if other brands have xtra deep? Before i drop the money for a new one



Heres a link of me playing with my band a while back fir reference, at that time i was 2nd chair/2bass trombone with three trombones in that ensemble,this coming year i will now be the bass trombone since the old one couldn’t play high notes so i stayed at 2nd chair
At that time my bass trombone had airleaks and i didnt have as much control over my low range as i do now so i made many mistakes here and there.but now im better with my articulation and attack and im coming in hot for my last year of highschool

Heres time stamps for when i blast low notes
4:50
15:55
17:10
19:40

I've heard bass trombonists who can demolish walls with a 1½G. If your mouthpiece is too big you may not get a lot of sound because you can't fill it.

Before you chase down your favorite toilet bowl, try a "normal" mouthpiece and see how that works.

Note: I've played down to trigger pedal D on a Marcinkiewicz 3, which is about the size of a 1½G. Naturally, if you need to go lower you may need a bigger mouthpiece, but it will take a LOT of work to make it loud.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 2:19 pm I've heard bass trombonists who can demolish walls with a 1½G. If your mouthpiece is too big you may not get a lot of sound because you can't fill it.

This. A focused sound is what you need.

If there was a mouthpiece that let you play higher, louder, faster, better, etc…. Everyone would play it. Find something comfortable for you to play and then sit there with it, practice and work on getting a strong articulation with a focused condensed sound throughout the entire note.

Extra deep is probably NOT what you want.
I would want to know more about your playing to actually recommend something, but for your basic request you would probably want a large rim to help with the low range, but not a deep cup.

Too deep and the horn just gets worse.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 4:12 pm Extra deep is probably NOT what you want.
I would want to know more about your playing to actually recommend something, but for your basic request you would probably want a large rim to help with the low range, but not a deep cup.

I use a greg black 0G as my main mouthpiece and i love how large it is 29.5mm
The crusher is slightly smaller 28.8 ish mm but xtra deep,
I like loud. And im always on the search for deep mouthpieces cause i hear it helps produce more volume

Deep mouthpieces give you more core/fundamental in the sound, but less overtones (higher partials). More of a tuba kind of loud, not trombone loud.

Doug's mouthpieces (unlike many others) let you pair a wide cup diameter with shallower cup depth - or the opposite. 29.5mm is about 1.16in. And his backbores are really good.

There's a ton of considerations missing here. Cup shape, throat size, backbore profile, leadpipe size, they all greatly influence what's being asked.

The short answer is a more responsive design on the more open side, with a more focused backbore and leadpipe will generate that specific sound easiest. Too open and too cavernous in design, with a broad backbore/leadpipe combo will make it harder. Rim size has very little to do with it.

That all being said, I would generally suggest not going so heavily in one direction, but to go for a more balanced sound.

How much volume do you need? "I like to play loud." Great. Do you perform with others? Do they like it when all you want to do is play loud? I'd suggest, as others have, focus on a good centered sound. A sound with lots of core and focus projects better that something that allows you to just blast away. Truth be told-no one wants to hear that anymore. Good luck.

Yeah…..I’m kind a wondering what you need that “offensive “ loud for. I’m not sure what kind of gig needs that. I can’t imagine anyone wanting that on a real gig. I can guarantee your section mates wouldn’t. Actually, it’s perfect for the next guy in line for that gig! Play like that, get let go from the conductor/leader, and the next guy gets your gig! If you get a reputation doing this, it really limits your success. FWIW.

Eddie Clark

Sigh.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:49 amSigh.

I've got a mouthpiece here that'll let you sigh low, loud, and with a ripping metal sound.

Since the OP edited the original post and added some stuff, I'm added it here:

CarlosDRB123 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 2:11 pm Edit:as a new person in this website i can see yalls points and i shouldve been more clear on what i will use it for,
For pep games,marching band since very few melodies sound cool an octave lower, to add more about myself i play bass trombone for my high school and going thru that “low farts” phase, will i ever leave it? Idk.At the moment i can only shake walls with pedal D and my lil immature bass trombone brain is kinda trying to get to the point where my teacher tells me “thats too much” since last year he would never get tired of my pedal tones unless if it didn't make sense

Hence why i was eyeballing the “crusher mouthpiece” and wanted to know what r similar to it/ if other brands have xtra deep? Before i drop the money for a new one



Heres a link of me playing with my band a while back fir reference, at that time i was 2nd chair/2bass trombone with three trombones in that ensemble,this coming year i will now be the bass trombone since the old one couldn’t play high notes so i stayed at 2nd chair
At that time my bass trombone had airleaks and i didnt have as much control over my low range as i do now so i made many mistakes here and there.but now im better with my articulation and attack and im coming in hot for my last year of highschool

Heres time stamps for when i blast low notes
4:50
15:55
17:10
19:40

Good band. That sounds decent and appropriate to me, no real need for more sound than that. Maybe a little faster response would help but that's largely just a matter of being aware of your own time so you don't get behind.
And again, a deeper cup is NOT the answer, it will make it worse, not better.

All other things equal, being bright is easier to be heard than being just loud. And shallower mouthpiece helps brighten the sound (easier to produce an edge). So your quest to find the deepest, largest, most open mouthpiece out there is a bit misguided if your objective is “to be heard”.

To play a low melody easier, larger mouthpiece definitely helps since it gives your lips more freedom, at least in theory. But as mentioned, it would not make you easier to be heard.

A good mouthpiece to play low loudly and well, in my opinion, is the one that you feel is the best fit to your mouth. Too small and the notes might not come out. Too large and the notes come out sloppy. Too shallow and the resistance is too high. Too deep and the notes don’t focus leading you to lose confidence. Balance and suitability is the key.

Agree with Doug. I use a pretty shallow piece if I need to be "loud", or "sound" loud at least. Maybe as shallow as an Elliott "I", which is slightly shallower than a 1.5G. Depending how much I'm playing bass and how low I need to go, I'll use a cup anywhere from 1.06" to 1.14". Playing pedals is a LOT easier on a smaller rim and cup for me. However, if I go smaller, I loose a little flexibility, especially in the range between low B and F. So I'll try to balance how facile I need to be in that register vs. how much red meat I need to throw to the audience. I often end up somewhere in the middle. Maybe a 1.10" rim w/ a J or K cup.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:13 am Since the OP edited the original post and added some stuff, I'm added it here:

CarlosDRB123 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 2:11 pm

Good band. That sounds decent and appropriate to me, no real need for more sound than that. Maybe a little faster response would help but that's largely just a matter of being aware of your own time so you don't get behind.

+1 to Doug for noticing the updated post.

Sounds good to me too! The lateness may be from taking too long to breathe sometimes - get air faster, or if necessary, more often. Louder would likely start burying some of the other colors in the ensemble (and there's not much worse than playing knowing you can't be heard).

Fundamental misunderstanding here.
A mouthpiece DOES NOTHING.
A mouthpiece ALLOWS a player to do things. Different mouthpieces favour different things, push you in different directions. They don't DO anything. At worst, they can severely restrict a player from doing things, but in the end, the source of sound is the player.

blast wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 1:57 am Fundamental misunderstanding here.
A mouthpiece DOES NOTHING.
A mouthpiece ALLOWS a player to do things. Different mouthpieces favour different things, push you in different directions. They don't DO anything. At worst, they can severely restrict a player from doing things, but in the end, the source of sound is the player.

Do you realize you contradicted yourself almost immediately?

A mouthpiece does nothing. A mouthpiece can severely restrict a player.

Mouthpieces do a lot, it's not really something that needs to be debated in any fashion.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:00 am ...
Do you realize you contradicted yourself almost immediately?

A mouthpiece does nothing. A mouthpiece can severely restrict a player.

Mouthpieces do a lot, it's not really something that needs to be debated in any fashion.

I'm pretty sure if you put any mouthpiece in any trombone and just hold it nothing happens

However, the interaction of the mouthpiece with your buzz can be salubrious (how's that for a 5 dollar word?) or not. Sure, your mouthpiece with my buzz will sound better than a Herco "Professional" with my buzz.

I think this is what Chris was driving at.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:27 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:00 am ...
Do you realize you contradicted yourself almost immediately?

A mouthpiece does nothing. A mouthpiece can severely restrict a player.

Mouthpieces do a lot, it's not really something that needs to be debated in any fashion.

I'm pretty sure if you put any mouthpiece in any trombone and just hold it nothing happens

However, the interaction of the mouthpiece with your buzz can be salubrious (how's that for a 5 dollar word?) or not. Sure, your mouthpiece with my buzz will sound better than a Herco "Professional" with my buzz.

I think this is what Chris was driving at.

Sure, and by that logic substitute mouthpiece for a plethora of other inanimate objects that do nothing without manipulation by a user. It's a tool, just like a wrench.

My point was and is that's a bunch of nonsense.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:00 am

blast wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 1:57 am Fundamental misunderstanding here.
A mouthpiece DOES NOTHING.
A mouthpiece ALLOWS a player to do things. Different mouthpieces favour different things, push you in different directions. They don't DO anything. At worst, they can severely restrict a player from doing things, but in the end, the source of sound is the player.

Do you realize you contradicted yourself almost immediately?

A mouthpiece does nothing. A mouthpiece can severely restrict a player.

Mouthpieces do a lot, it's not really something that needs to be debated in any fashion.

No he really didn't. Fine points in there coming from a respected player who's seen and done it all.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:46 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:00 am

Do you realize you contradicted yourself almost immediately?

A mouthpiece does nothing. A mouthpiece can severely restrict a player.

Mouthpieces do a lot, it's not really something that needs to be debated in any fashion.

No he really didn't. Fine points in there coming from a respected player who's seen and done it all.

Not really though.

Well, obviously this is a waste of time for most seasoned , professional players. Bill and Chris, sign off……I know I am

Fridge

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:23 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:46 am

No he really didn't. Fine points in there coming from a respected player who's seen and done it all.

Not really though.

I figured as much. And this is where we are folks. There's no debating anything. Experience is worthless. 1 person can bully his way into believing what he wants us to. Not my cup of tea. Adios!!!

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 10:45 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:23 am

Not really though.

I figured as much. And this is where we are folks. There's no debating anything. Experience is worthless. 1 person can bully his way into believing what he wants us to. Not my cup of tea. Adios!!!

Let's be a little more blunt. Players generally know less about gear than the people designing and making it. Mouthpieces greatly control what a player can do on the horn, otherwise we'd all be playing on a 12c.

And now here comes the deluge of contrarians.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 2:58 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 10:45 am
I figured as much. And this is where we are folks. There's no debating anything. Experience is worthless. 1 person can bully his way into believing what he wants us to. Not my cup of tea. Adios!!!

Let's be a little more blunt. Players generally know less about gear than the people designing and making it. Mouthpieces greatly control what a player can do on the horn, otherwise we'd all be playing on a 12c.

And now here comes the deluge of contrarians.

I'll defend him. From what I gather Chris Stearn, AKA Blast, has been involved in the design and creation of more than a few bass trombones and mouthpieces, and is one of the most respected professional musicians who has stayed on the forum. He knows what he's talking about (I suspect he meant "the mouthpiece ALONE does nothing", that's how I took it), and has been there and done that in regards to pretty much anything involving the trombone.

There is no way that Chris, who frequently talks about his mouthpiece collection, the zyrconium Symington copies of his pieces, and his choices of mouthpiece in different professional settings actually meant that the mouthpiece does nothing. I think he was getting at "you gotta know how to use your tools", but I don't want to put any more words on his mouth than I already have.

I respect you too, and I'm not knocking your knowledge or any of the work you do at Long Island Brass. Maybe chalk it up to misinterpreting what a very seasoned professional typed into a chat forum? We all do that all the time on these text forums.

Player says the mouthpiece has much less effect in the equation- check.

Mouthpiece maker says mouthpiece has more effect in the equation- check.

blast wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 1:57 am . . . but in the end, the source of sound is the player.

If I don’t understand something, I am better off making a request “to help me understand.” Louis Armstrong is said to have sounded good on any mouthpiece that got handed to him. I don’t know if people still buy mouthpiece copies of Dorsey’s mouthpiece. Most of the time it doesn’t make them sound like Dorsey.

To the OP: Buy a new, unadulterated Faxx 1.5G mouthpiece from Hickeys.com, or anywhere else, for $46.99. They are faithful copies of Bach Mount Vernon 1.5G mouthpieces. After you “master” that, and can wax a 1946 Ford with Carnauba, you’ll be ready to make a proper decision about what mouthpiece to go to. A Faxx 1.5G won’t hold you back from achieving whatever is in your mindset.

I don't make or sell mouthpieces. Decide who has a stake in this one. I'm off. Bye.

Ya, that must be it, I'm trying to sell mouthpieces. You see right through me.

...this is why we can't have nice things...

Sorry guys, I’m running a little late. Did I miss anything?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:23 pm Sorry guys, I’m running a little late. Did I miss anything?

Drama. Where is the popcorn emoji?

Guys in the end it doesn't matter how much "knowledge" a maker has if the player doesn't dig it. Just because one can build doesn't mean one can play. Just because one can build doesn't mean one can hear the way the player does. And maybe a little humility can go a long way. But as I said before we're not there anymore. Definitive statements get attention but this thread will die until the attention seeker rises again. Enjoy whatever you play on.

I love the passive aggressive comments, so fun!

"Basically my question is what mouthpiece out there can help low and loud and possibly “ripping metal” sound"

I believe any mouthpiece can help you do that. In the end you figure out it's not the mouthpiece but you have to do it yourself. Chris have seen this before as an experienced professional player and teacher. I think what you really want is a sound that reach out, carry out?

Only a good sound do that and how to get it? Not sure but listen a lot and aim for is a start.

Leif

Leif, your comment, especially the quotes around "ripping metal sound", has brightened my day more than you can imagine. I miss when you used to post more frequently!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2024 6:40 pm Leif, your comment, especially the quotes around "ripping metal sound", has brightened my day more than you can imagine. I miss when you used to post more frequently!

Agreed!