TromboneChat

As I've mentioned, I started playing again about 16 months ago after a 30-year layoff. I find that my continued improvement isn't even across the horn. Instead, different techniques get better at different rates, so my playing is unequally proficient across all areas.

One thing that has become noticeable is that my tonguing and flexibility have gotten better than my slide technique, which is noticeable (to me, probably not to others), particularly on fast passages. My slide technique is "lazy" compared to my tonguing and flexibility. And that limits what I can play well.

What resources, exercises, tips and advice do you have for developing lightning quick, smooth, even, and accurate slide technique?

A subset of slide technique is slide vibrato. The fast and wide slide vibrato of olden times sounds hokey these days, and shouldn't be used unless it's in a historical context. But I'd love to develop a super elegant modern slide vibrato. Any ideas or resources for figuring that out? Any player to emulate? Vibrato is a very personal element of style, and I want to develop the kind of slide vibrato that sounds vocal-like and beautiful, but is consistent with the preference of modern ears, and I haven't really settled on anything that feels just right to me, yet, in terms of putting it together with just the right speed, width and duration.

Thanks. Look forward to your advice.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 10:25 am ...
What resources, exercises, tips and advice do you have for developing lightning quick, smooth, even, and accurate slide technique?
...

I'm certainly not qualified to lecture anyone, but the things I've run into that best improved my slide technique were the alternate position ideas. The best way to take less time moving the slide is to not move it as much. I learned a lot from John Swallow. Use alternate positions when it makes sense. Use the natural breaks to do articulation for you when possible. Move the slide against the grain, and if you have to move the slide in the same direction as the pitch, only move one or two positions, otherwise find a natural break. Of course all of this is a lot easier up high where the partials are closer to one another.

One exercise Swallow had me do was to play a couple weeks without using 1st position. Try all of this with Rochut, just to keep the music familiar. Try to get the little sloppy glisses out of your sound between notes (probably have to use a recording for that). Also, be careful not to let your pitch fall or rise on held notes right before the end of the note when moving to another note. This takes really analytical and critical listening to catch, and really meticulous concentration while you're playing.

Another exercise he used was to move the slide back and forth between 1st and 6th smoothly (so it takes about 1 second between 1 and 6), and try to nail the note in 3rd position with a short articulated note at exactly the same pitch without sounding like a gliss. The trick is to be able to get all the "tromboneyness" out of the sound when you need to, without jarring your chops with jerky slide technique.

And of course lip slurs and interval exercises were huge.

The best slide technique looks lazy, but it's just smooth. Don't jerk the slide. Keep a loose grip, just use the fingers to keep the slide from moving back and forth. You don't have to prevent it from moving side to side, it holds that position on its own. I let the slide brace move back and forth between my index and thumb, so there's never really a firm grip, but I've always got the control I need. The "tea cup" grip seems simultaneously overconstrained and precariously in danger of slipping out, but I've seen people use it, so who am I to criticize. I'm sure you don't really need to hear any of this kind of stuff.

Besides having a lightning fast, well maintained slide, I have found that you can be more accurate and faster if you only hold the slide with just your thumb and index finger.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 11:00 am I'm certainly not qualified to lecture anyone, but the things I've run into that best improved my slide technique were the alternate position ideas. The best way to take less time moving the slide is to not move it as much. I learned a lot from John Swallow. Use alternate positions when it makes sense.

Yeah, I've written here that the whole notion of "alternate" positions bugs me to no end. There are no alternate positions, there are just various places on the horn where notes can be played. I'm a HUGE believer in using whichever position makes the most sense in context of the phrase being played. I'm 100% fluent in the use of "alternate" positions, and play them all equally and easily. Huge issue among trombone players IMHO, and one of my peeves.

The rest of your post is filled with likewise good information.

Another exercise he used was to move the slide back and forth between 1st and 6th smoothly (so it takes about 1 second between 1 and 6), and try to nail the note in 3rd position with a short articulated note at exactly the same pitch without sounding like a gliss. The trick is to be able to get all the "tromboneyness" out of the sound when you need to, without jarring your chops with jerky slide technique.

I've never done that. In fact, I do exercises to go between 1st and all the other positions, or 7th and all the other positions, as quickly as possible, with no time or sound in-between. I do this one daily. (Posting only the first page of it.)

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 11:04 am Besides having a lightning fast, well maintained slide, I have found that you can be more accurate and faster if you only hold the slide with just your thumb and index finger.

Yup. I generally do that...



...unless I'm flying out to 6th or 7th position quickly, and then I get a better grip by curving a couple fingers around the brace, just to prevent my slide from flying out into the audience.

Like this:
Might not be for everyone but it works well for me.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:22 pm Like this:

Screenshot_20240802_132102_YouTube.jpg

Might not be for everyone but it works well for me.

I think we do the same thing, you just hold your other three fingers higher off the slide than I do. Is that not right? Am I missing it?

Also, you can't see it in the photo but I have my wrist turned toward my body slightly, so that I can use my fingers and wrist to change positions without moving my elbow. With the wrist turned in, I can't hold the fingers as high as you do without winding up at the doctor's office. In fact, because of that wrist position I sometimes put the other three fingers below the slide. And sometimes I'll just curl the last three fingers into a fist. I'm not very consistent with those fingers, but they're just hanging out there not doing anything, so I put them wherever feels comfortable at the moment. Probably not the proper way, but here we are.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:29 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:22 pm Like this:

Screenshot_20240802_132102_YouTube.jpg

Might not be for everyone but it works well for me.

I think we do the same thing, you just hold your other three fingers higher off the slide than I do. Is that not right? Am I missing it?

Also, you can't see it in the photo but I have my wrist turned toward my body slightly, so that I can use my fingers and wrist to change positions without moving my elbow. With the wrist turned in, I can't hold the fingers as high as you do without winding up at the doctor's office. In fact, because of that wrist position I sometimes put the other three fingers below the slide. And sometimes I'll just curl the last three fingers into a fist. I'm not very consistent with those fingers, but they're just hanging out there not doing anything, so I put them wherever feels comfortable at the moment. Probably not the proper way, but here we are.

Yeah all that stuff in the second paragraph is what is different, and it's actually very different. My wrist is almost turned out, especially on long positions. I used to play your way, with the wrist turned in, but found that playing the way in my picture is much better, and much faster, and more precise. For me, of course. Many other ways to do it!

Many pros play exactly like you are in your picture.

For me, my grip eliminated lots of elbow and arm tension. The big negative: my grip actually made it impossible to play on a Shires TIS alto or other TIS horns, even though I generally like those horns a lot -- my fingers pass through where the TIS brace is as I go out to longer positions!

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 10:25 am A subset of slide technique is slide vibrato. The fast and wide slide vibrato of olden times sounds hokey these days, and shouldn't be used unless it's in a historical context.

Any beautiful vibrato can be used if you do it well.

I disagree that the "olden times" slide vibrato is fast and wide. Fast, yes. Wide? Not really. I think that sometimes people make it too wide and end up yanking on the slide too hard. Whatever the speed, vibrato needs to look and feel relaxed.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:22 pm Might not be for everyone but it works well for me.

For me, that is an open invitation to throw my slide into the audience.

Concerning vibrato, record yourself. I have found that whatever I think I'm doing doesn't always come across the same as I intended.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 2:32 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:22 pm Might not be for everyone but it works well for me.

For me, that is an open invitation to throw my slide into the audience.

I know! I was scared at first when I adopted the technique, but I've played that way now for 12 years, probably 1,800 performances including some big solos out in front of the band and my slide has never flown out into the audience!

My grip in 2nd pos in the pic below. In 7th, my hand opens up flat with the slide oversleeve between my middle and ring fingers, with the palm facing left and the thumb in open air on top. (adds a few inches to short arms.)

For slide vibrato, and of course all playing, the key is to actively stay in the slot as the slide moves. I've heard players do slide vibrato but they keep their "setting" static, for whatever the starting pitch is.

And then you need to move the slide to match a modern singer's vibrato. Throwing a GOOD pop singer's voice into Melodyne to see what they are actually doing with their pitch is quite interesting. The "rules" for we know vibrato, bends, and in a singer's case, slurs within a word or vowel sound are thrown out and not what you learned in school.

Try sitting on the edge of a bed and do one of these sawing wood exercises. Massive instability. In fact, try it without a horn--still unstable. There's no way a light slide can correct for the flinging mass of an arm. This being said, I'm amazed at the almost digital slide technique recent grads have, like Alessi. But you know, if it looks awkward it's hard not to sound awkward.

My own solution is to find places on the horn where the shifts are short. (But someone always writes something nearly unplayable!) Especially in improvisation, select the nearest next note.

Harrison: where is your thumb when you play? I can't tell from the photo whether you place it behind the brace or under the lower tube. Not that it really matters for me -- I just tried both ways and I can't reach 7th position. I hold the slide like hyperbolica because it's the only way I've found that I can reach 7th.

I'm confused by descriptions of wrist motion and position, e.g. I don't how to interpret "turned in" vs "turned out". In general I'm unclear on how the wrist and hand should be used. A lot of motion? Very little motion?

This my slide technique

dbwhitaker wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:38 pm Harrison: where is your thumb when you play? I can't tell from the photo whether you place it behind the brace or under the lower tube. Not that it really matters for me -- I just tried both ways and I can't reach 7th position. I hold the slide like hyperbolica because it's the only way I've found that I can reach 7th.

I'm confused by descriptions of wrist motion and position, e.g. I don't how to interpret "turned in" vs "turned out". In general I'm unclear on how the wrist and hand should be used. A lot of motion? Very little motion?

Behind the brace, not under the tube. My wrist mostly points down to the ground, even in first, and turns outwards past 5th. The technique Dana was describing has the wrist turned more towards the chest.

The wrist motion is for microtuning within a position, so it's very little.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:52 pm Behind the brace, not under the tube. My wrist mostly points down to the ground, even in first, and turns outwards past 5th.

https://www.dvidshub.net/image/7776652/ ... four-years

This gives a good view of what I do.

That solo was sweet, Doug!

Doug's video is a great angle to see the slide action.

My approach is similar to what Doug does there; I'd say my grip is the same except that the palm of my hand is turned just a tad more upward.

Very nice, Doug.

Nice playing.

To help slide technique in fast tempi, try music written for other instruments, such as bassoon or cello. The moves do not follow what is considered to be "trombonistic" and may require deft use of alternative positions.
Music can be downloaded from IMSLP.

Cheers

Stewbones43

dbwhitaker wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:38 pm I'm confused by descriptions of wrist motion and position, e.g. I don't how to interpret "turned in" vs "turned out". In general I'm unclear on how the wrist and hand should be used. A lot of motion? Very little motion?

When I said my wrist is turned in, that means I rotate it so that the inside of my wrist is pointing at my body with my thumb on top, like if you're going to put your palm on your chest.

I do that because using your elbow to change positions is inefficient, and the big motion required to change positions takes more time and makes smooth playing more difficult. So, instead, if I only have to move the slide one or two positions, I don't move my elbow at all, I just use my wrist and fingers to move the slide.

Try it. Try holding your wrist and fingers still and moving the slide just with bending your elbow and shoulder. That's how many people play. Then try holding your shoulder and elbow still, and turn your wrist in toward your body, and try to play without moving your elbow. I can move the slide from 1st to 4th position without moving my elbow. This makes slide movement faster, more efficient, and smoother.

I'm all about playing as efficiently and effortlessly as possible. And turning the wrist in toward your body, holding the slide with your thumb and index finger, and using your wrist and fingers for slide motion is much easier than sawing logs with your elbow and shoulder, and your playing is more relaxed, as it should be.

That's the sabutin method. He could shift like crazy.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 11:56 am Yeah, I've written here that the whole notion of "alternate" positions bugs me to no end. There are no alternate positions, there are just various places on the horn where notes can be played. I'm a HUGE believer in using whichever position makes the most sense in context of the phrase being played. I'm 100% fluent in the use of "alternate" positions, and play them all equally and easily. Huge issue among trombone players IMHO, and one of my peeves.

Here are some ETSP Charts—precise graphical portrayals of All Available Positions for all tones (equitempered or not) on all harmonics. Black dots represent equitempered tones played on the slide alone. Open circles are equitempered tones played with the F attachment. As mentioned many times, "good" slide technique makes use of playing successive notes on different harmonics whenever possible, and between adjacent harmonics in many scalar passages—which often results in contrary motion (i.e. against-the-grain).

The heavy lines sloping down to the right show individual harmonics. Light lines sloping up to the right show semitone increments between adjacent harmonics. Dashed lines indicate whole-tone increments between adjacent harmonics. You can see at a glance how scalar passages can be played against the grain, with an occasional with-the-grain motion (mostly for semitones). Note how the dashed-line slopes reverse at the ninth harmonic (seventeenth harmonic for semitone increments).

Shaded regions are bounded by shortest possible chromatic scales (orange) and longest possible chromatic scales (blue). The unshaded area in between indicates where more than one position is available for any given tone. The wider the unshaded region, the more choices. Where the shaded regions touch there are no further choices.

As a general rule, the steeper the dashed-line "curves" the more facile the slide technique—because harmonics are then separated by smaller intervals, especially thirds and seconds.

Visualising these charts helps a lot in planning the selection of available position choices, resulting in improved slide technique.

Clearly shown is the five-note tenor gap in the Bb ETSP Chart and the missing B1 (and necessary over-extension for C2 and C1) in the Bb/F Chart.


.

Is this also an appropriate place to discuss "Bell Tickling"?

A very bad habit, unfortunately stemming from (usually non-trombonist) band directors teaching beginners "how to find" third and fourth position. "Touch the bell with your middle finger for third position". "Stick your thumb back onto the bell for fourth position."

I'm always amazed at how many really good professional players exhibit this distracting habit.

This is a pretty good explanation of what I was taught.



I do not have good slide technique. For me, I have to go to the trouble to be kind of intense about it.

Here is an interesting article on slide technique.

https://www.baylortrombones.com/uploads ... he_air.pdf

I guess I am closer to remington slide technique when I play. I would rather index the positions since I find it leads to a better sound.

chouston3 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 9:17 pm This is a pretty good explanation of what I was taught.

That is nice. I hadn't thought through just how important my shoulder is.

Thinking about your long tone thread. One of the best diagnostic/refinement exercises for the slide moving in a way that is smooth and on time is the basic Remington long tone series. It’s very easy to focus in on how slide movement is or isn’t affecting articulation or whether the horn bounces around or gets pulled in unintended ways that cause note chips or instability.

When a movement from first to seventh can be done efficiently, the slide motion is pretty good.

After getting the basics of motion straightened out it’s probably about what patterns are well programmed into muscle memory. Last night I found out that my F# major scale when seeing it on paper, is not as locked in as I thought it was. (As discussed elsewhere, sadly thinking in Gb was easier.)

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 10:25 am ...
What resources, exercises, tips and advice do you have for developing lightning quick, smooth, even, and accurate slide technique?
...

A resource that helped me was the Bob McChesney Doodle Studies and Etudes -- specifically, playing along with the recorded accompaniments, each of which are provided in three speeds: quite fast, very fast, fastest. This material is challenging and fun to play.

After a month or so of working on one of the solos at the mid-level speed, I noticed that every time I picked up my horn, I'd go straight into fast scales. My arm and everything else involved in playing just wanted to move fast.

I use Brad Edward's Scales and Arpeggios Workout for jazz trombone, both as written and down an octave on my bass trombone. Really hones the slide technique especially as you pick up the tempos. But remember what Perlman always said "practice slowly, you'll forget it slowly. Practice fast and you'll forget it fast."

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 10:25 am ...super elegant modern slide vibrato. Any ideas or resources for figuring that out? Any player to emulate?...

When Urbie Green played his most beautifully in the 1950s, his legato phrases contained exemplary (in my opinion) slide vibrato. A big part of why Urbie sounded so good was his impeccable intonation.

"It Must Be True" from "Let's Face the Music and Dance" is a good example.

I believe I once figured out that Urbie could put slide vibrato on an A-flat in octave 5. And it sounded relaxed and effortless. I think I'll be able to find it on "Let's Face the Music and Dance" because that's where I first found it. Pretty sure anyhow.

chouston3 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 9:17 pm This is a pretty good explanation of what I was taught.

I found lot's of good information in this video. Thanks.

Simple patterns on scale tones really work slide technique well. For instance, from a scale tone, chromatic down two half steps then up one and repeat. That's the easy part. Now do it again but move to the next scale tone. Everything changes going up or going down or moving a half or whole step to the next tone.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 7:49 pm This gives a good view of what I do. [...]

I loved it, such wonderful trombone solos!
(strangely enough, that camera angle made it much easier for me to relate to the slide movements and follow what's happening from note to note. The usual shoulder-level camera has the opposite effect for me...) <not a joke

i really did find it helpful — a persuasive angle! Although probably not pedagogically viable: towering over student like that... < ok, that’s a slightly naughty but good-natured joke. (i’m never really sure if anything i say on here is not understood totally upside down. some of my posts may be seen as outlandish from a certain angle... Nevermind. No offence intended either way, far from it!)

VJOFan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2024 5:23 pm Thinking about your long tone thread. One of the best diagnostic/refinement exercises for the slide moving in a way that is smooth and on time is the basic Remington long tone series. It’s very easy to focus in on how slide movement is or isn’t affecting articulation or whether the horn bounces around or gets pulled in unintended ways that cause note chips or instability.

When a movement from first to seventh can be done efficiently, the slide motion is pretty good.

The recent Markey low range series focused on a lot of glissandi. (or portamentos if you're a nitpicker) When you do a long gliss you can really see and feel the slide bounce if you are not moving it in a straight line.

So slow gliss practice should help you smooth that motion out. Except:

When a movement from first to seventh can be done efficiently, the slide motion is pretty good.

I'm not so sure that the joint manipulation in a 1-7 straight line is or should be the same as the fast motion over a shorter area, like in Doug's solo above.

I was reading Technical Studies for Trombone by Bob McChesney and the section on slide technique describes something similar to what Doug is doing in the video.

I am trying to learn it.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Aug 04, 2024 11:32 am So, instead, if I only have to move the slide one or two positions, I don't move my elbow at all, I just use my wrist and fingers to move the slide.

I was told this as a child. But because I took "I don't move my elbow at all" literally, I could never get it to work. Not moving the elbow means not moving the location of the wrist, even a hair (unless you dip the slide up and down to accommodate). Just flexing the wrist and fingers, you can get maybe a pair of positions, but it is totally impractical.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:45 am

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Aug 04, 2024 11:32 am So, instead, if I only have to move the slide one or two positions, I don't move my elbow at all, I just use my wrist and fingers to move the slide.

I was told this as a child. But because I took "I don't move my elbow at all" literally, I could never get it to work. Not moving the elbow means not moving the location of the wrist, even a hair (unless you dip the slide up and down to accommodate). Just flexing the wrist and fingers, you can get maybe a pair of positions, but it is totally impractical.

Well, whatever works for you. I find I get smooth, lightning fast slide movement this way. And since I work at playing at speed, I need that kind of movement.

If you rotate your wrist instead of flexing it, your fingertips move 4 positions. No elbow motion, the forearm rotates.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:14 pm If you rotate your wrist instead of flexing it, your fingertips move 4 positions. No elbow motion, the forearm rotates.

suddenly trombone playing mechanics don’t seem so basic, compared to e.g. the saxophone or trumpet - there may actually be more going on in slide work than in sax fingering! (spoken as a saxophone player & a trombone newbie). Add to this the “alternate” positions and the clumsy looking slide becomes a seriously formidable contraption!

Just thought it interesting about the 3 remaining right hand (slide grip) fingers : sometimes raised away, sometimes balled in a fist. Doesn’t that increase (or reduce?) facility by redistributing the weight around the slide grip area - an important consideration especially at speed…
Also maybe jewelry on fingers or a heavyish wrist bracelet would have a further effect on slide facility. Maybe could be made to work for one’s advantage in certain situations?
Some early ski jumpers used to cheat a bit by hiding additional weight on their bodies so they can fly further. I probably got this from a great documentary on the subject by Werner Herzog, The Great Ecstasy of Woodcarver Steiner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great ... er_Steiner