TromboneChat

I'm in a trombone quartet made up of arguably the best trombonists in my small market. At a recent rehearsal the conversation turned to players in large markets, and one of the quartet members remarked that he thought trombonists in New York and Los Angeles "are only three percent better than we are, it's just that getting that last three percent is incredibly hard," and others agreed.

But having grown up in L.A., my thought (which I kept to myself) was, "Are you kidding??? Those guys aren't three percent better than us, they're more like three thousand percent better."

That made me wonder if small market players really are good, or if musicians in small markets think they are better than they are. These are big fish in small ponds. I'm not sure they have a concept of just how good those at the top of the business really are. I doubt I could survive a week in L.A. or NY, as IMHO even mediocre players there are far better than me.

What are your thoughts are about differences across small to big market regions. Do you think I have it right or am I missing how good folks in the smaller markets really are?

I'd say it's 1% or even less most of the time. There are other factors that create separation (location and network building top among them, also the belief that one belongs in a place) but I've seen players in every city I've ever toured through that are easily could be at the playing level of most freelancers in large markets.

Ability is equal everywhere, but opportunity isn't. We tell ourselves stories based on where we're from or where we're at that aren't fully complete.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 11:52 am I'd say it's 1% or even less most of the time.

I'm surprised but please to hear you say that.

Ability is equal everywhere, but opportunity isn't. We tell ourselves stories based on where we're from or where we're at that aren't fully complete.

I love this. Good quote, filled with truth, and a saying I'm going to remember.

3% of what? I'm a decent player but at this point make virtually nothing from my playing because of a combination of location, personal stuff like family and moving, and work. I know plenty of players in, for example, the ska scene that don't have much technique but gig all the time. I don't think of myself as better or worse than they are. I would obviously concede that like Andy Martin would run circles around me but, how much %? IDK, he'd get the call before I would 10 out of 10 times lol. Does that mean he's 100% better than me?

The playsrs in NY and LA probably came from some small town and moved for the opportunity. In the small area where I live most of the (older) good players came from somewhere else usually one of the bigger markets. I think the talent does filter to the big markets. On the other hand, I'd be a better player if I were gigging 4 nights a week.

There's a lot to be said for the quality of life and cost of living of the small towns. People leave the big city for predictable reasons.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 5:10 pm . On the other hand, I'd be a better player if I were gigging 4 nights a week.

This is really the difference I see. There are great players everywhere, but they aren't all immersed in the scene and constantly using the soft skills like ensemble, section, listening, different styles, etc.

It's deceptive, man.
It is like
Approaching light speed.
You might be able to get to 50% with
An ion engine
Or even 95% with
A light-sail
But as you approach 99%
The energy requirements
To improve further
Go faster
Approach ∞
That last push
To go from 99%
To 99.95%
Is infinitely harder
And the results far greater
Than going from 0% to 95%
C.

Sometimes that 3% is huge.
You either know the difference, or only think you do.
But it's probably the same in every industry or line of work. There are a few at the top, a lot who think they're well above average, and a few at the bottom.

Don't discount "local" scenes that are still major markets outside of the "big" music centers like L.A., Nashville, or New York.

I gig around the Detroit area and I can confidently say that some of the people I gig with have actually more than held their own with players from those "big" areas and for various reasons have settled down here.

Plus, we do have a fairly well-known musical tradition for motown, hard bop jazz, rock, and hip-hop.

I feel fortunate and enriched to be able to hang with these folks.

When I was a young pro player living in Toronto, Rob McConnell (the Boss Brass) was coming back to town after spending some time teaching at the Dick Grove school in LA and checking out the scene there.

He said that Charlie Loper amazed him. He'd asked Loper "Don't you ever miss a note or anything?". To which Loper said after a thoughtful second..."No". (man, just ponder all the legendary LA players...the list is long!)

Toronto certainly had some 'bone players at the 100% level when Ian McDougall, Jerry Johnson, Bob Livingston, John Capon and some others were living there and doing all the heavy duty work.

When we got to be on their lists of sub-players, that's when the work of 'showing you could cut it' really began. It was a great scene, as we all played quartets with each other to stay on top of things (which were like 'auditions') and one was able to sit next to some pretty inspiring trombone players who'd come from all over Canada and parts of the world. (probably similar to the famous Hoyt's-garage scene in old LA)

NYC has 'bone players that no one has ever heard of who are at the 100% level. (Maybe 100%+!)

Same as in London, all over Europe and the rest of the world.

100%+ musicians (who happen to play the trombone)

What can one do?

Be inspired by the musicianship of the best of them and always strive for that in our own work wherever we might live.

Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 6:38 am When I was a young pro player living in Toronto, Rob McConnell (the Boss Brass) was coming back to town after spending some time teaching at the Dick Grove school in LA and checking out the scene there.

He said that Charlie Loper amazed him. He'd asked Loper "Don't you ever miss a note or anything?". To which Loper said after a thoughtful second..."No". (man, just ponder all the legendary LA players...the list is long!)

I studied film scoring with Dick Grove and worked with Charlie Loper from time to time. I don't recall meeting Rob McConnell, so I could have been there before his time. I can't address players in NYC, London, Toronto or elsewhere, but the players in L.A. were amazing. And if you wanted to do that work, you had to be amazing, too. Many tried, many failed, only a few survived.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:25 am I studied film scoring with Dick Grove and worked with Charlie Loper from time to time. I don't recall meeting Rob McConnell, so I could have been there before his time. I can't address players in NYC, London, Toronto or elsewhere, but the players in L.A. were amazing. And if you wanted to do that work, you had to be amazing, too. Many tried, many failed, only a few survived.

McConnell was in LA mid-80's or so, after he'd won a Grammy for one of his Boss Brass albums.
Even at that time, work was starting to 'dry up' in Toronto for him and many others. Hanging out at George's Spaghetti House, the defunct famous jazz venue, he told a good friend of mine: "Congrats for the Grammy? Yeah, thanks. All I want is a $50 gig!!"

I was fortunate to study trombone with Dave Robbins, who had moved to Vancouver with a Canadian wife from LA. where Dave had been doing tons of studio work with Tommy Pederson, Hoyt Buchanon, Dick Nash, etc. etc. and was the lead trombone player for Harry James during his heyday at the Palladium.

True story: during a lesson, Dave told me that he and his fellow 'bone players would get together for drinks after their Saturday gigs and all get together to listen to a CBC Radio broadcast they could pick up that was out of Toronto.

Dave said the sole purpose of all the LA 'heavies' getting together was in order to listen to Teddy Roderman play trombone. Roderman was THE Toronto player after WWII and did everything. Toronto was bustling with TV, Film, Radio, albums, etc. etc.

Dave said he and the other 'bone players listened to what was happening and Toronto, and that was one of the reasons that Dave didn't feel bad about leaving LA. He said: "If Canada has musicians like Teddy Roderman, then that must be where it's happening!" (true story!)

He got his job playing lead trombone with Harry James through the help of Tommy Pederson. (that's another amazing story for later!) Dave had the greatest sound you could imagine when you heard him play on his Williams.

When I was at university (UBC Vancouver), Don Waldrop came up to give a masterclass to us. This happened to coincide with a recording session that featured Dave playing lead trombone on some fantastic 5 trombone w/rhythm charts.

We all went to the session, and they wanted Wadrop to be the 'tonemeister'.

Waldrop's direct quote: "That's the most amazing trombone sound I've ever heard since Tommy Pederson".

Point blank straight face from Waldrop.

So..yeah...it's nice to get to rub shoulders with some of the %100 - ers!

Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 9:43 am

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:25 am I studied film scoring with Dick Grove and worked with Charlie Loper from time to time. I don't recall meeting Rob McConnell, so I could have been there before his time. I can't address players in NYC, London, Toronto or elsewhere, but the players in L.A. were amazing. And if you wanted to do that work, you had to be amazing, too. Many tried, many failed, only a few survived.

McConnell was in LA mid-80's or so, after he'd won a Grammy for one of his Boss Brass albums.
Even at that time, work was starting to 'dry up' in Toronto for him and many others. Hanging out at George's Spaghetti House, the defunct famous jazz venue, he told a good friend of mine: "Congrats for the Grammy? Yeah, thanks. All I want is a $50 gig!!"

I was fortunate to study trombone with Dave Robbins, who had moved to Vancouver with a Canadian wife from LA. where Dave had been doing tons of studio work with Tommy Pederson, Hoyt Buchanon, Dick Nash, etc. etc. and was the lead trombone player for Harry James during his heyday at the Palladium.

Wow, the first time I heard about Dave Robbins and I'm asking myself why? Searched a bit and found something on YouTube:



Doesn't get any better than this imo. Would love to hear more! Hopefully someone can share sth or DM me with a link to not totally mislead this (very interesting!) thread xD

EriKon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:41 pm Doesn't get any better than this imo. Would love to hear more! Hopefully someone can share sth or DM me with a link to not totally mislead this (very interesting!) thread xD

Here's a short one; Dave takes a solo just after the two minute mark. (...think I have another link or two on the other computer. Not a lot of video of Dave, but he's heard on a lot of albums with James from 1948-55.
His LA studio work involved everything. Hmm....gotta find some more.... an unsung legend:

I think the big difference between the big markets like LA/NYC and smaller markets is not the quality of the BEST players, but the AVERAGE quality.

Some of the best players I've ever played with live and work in the Midwest, but there aren't many at that level as the overall pool is much smaller. In LA, the list of players who will come in and play at a world-class level every day is as long as a CVS receipt. Not so much in smaller markets, where depending on the instrument you might not even be able to fill a big band section with players at that level.

When I studied with a guy in one of those big orchestras, and I was playing pretty good and in good shape. He said the only difference between me and him was that he went to work every day and played with the best musicians in his field.if I did that I was be as good as him. I totally believe that.

As a professional but not in the field of music performance despite my background in it, I greatly admire professional performing musicians.

I’ve performed enough to know IT IS WORK. A pro who always shows up early and pays attention to detail and maintains a high standard of competence is doing what it takes to be that extra percentage “better.”

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 6:18 pm I think the big difference between the big markets like LA/NYC and smaller markets is not the quality of the BEST players, but the AVERAGE quality.

Isn't there a timing (individual variability) factor?

On any given day, someone who's 5% better than me might be 50% better or 150% better?

You probably have to be 3% better on your worst day.