TromboneChat

Just a late night thought, would you choose a mouthpiece you feel comfortable on or a mouthpiece that sounds better? I have a Bach 1g and a Greg Black 1 1/4g. Bach feels more comfortable while Greg sounded better, according to my teacher.

Listen to your teacher. Nine times out of ten his advice is good.

Comfort can change over time as you get use to a mouthpiece.

In general -- in pretty much any endeavor -- if you choose to stick with comfort, then you'll never improve. Think "I don't know coach ... I just don't feel comfortable doing all those exercises." Becoming skilled at anything always seems to require some degree of discomfort along the way. At the very least, if you switch to the Greg Black and get as comfortable as you can with that while working on your "sound", you'll have learned something valuable about using and comparing mouthpieces -- and about playing trombone more generally -- even if later you decide to go back to the Bach (which you probably won't).

Me thinks you need more options. There's sooo many brands and sizes kicking around today, no reason not to have your cake and eat it too.

I have a damaged bottom lip, comfort is king in my case!
Luckily I've found a mouthpiece that takes pressure away from the damage that ticks all the other boxes too.

Or maybe… there is a mouthpiece that has the bach comfort and the greg black sound. hmmm

So a fundamental question is whether you should (a) Go with the recommendation of your teacher or (b) Go with a couple dozen recommendations you can get off the web from people who don't know you, have never heard you play, and don't know what your various strengths and weaknesses are.

Tough choice.

I don't get along with the Greg Black rims either, even though the mouthpieces are good designs, otherwise. Just send the Greg Black to Bob Reeves and have it threaded for bass rims from Doug Elliott, which are super comfortable. It will cost $50-$100, depending on if they need to shape the cup and replate, or not.

I'm convinced that the critical parts of a mouthpiece's design are the bore/backbore, cup volume, and shoulder into the throat. You can swap out a rim and slightly alter the cup profile without really changing the character of the design.

I still have my Greg Black 1g and to me, the feel of that mouthpiece on my face is closer to the Bach 1g. I loved my sound on it but I'll get tired faster.

I used the GB 1g when I was in my 2nd year but I'm afraid to use it again..

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:21 am I'm convinced that the critical parts of a mouthpiece's design are the bore/backbore, cup volume, and shoulder into the throat. You can swap out a rim and slightly alter the cup profile without really changing the character of the design.

I mostly agree - the rim (shape, mainly) determines a lot of the comfort factor, while sound is more a factor of other components. I recently went from DE's standard LB113 (narrow) to a LB113 mW (medium-wide), and comfort increased with no detectable downsides.

Rim diameter affects the response more than the comfort, IMO. And eventually will start to affect the sound if you go far enough. But the rest of the mouthpiece has much more influence.

But as far as the original question, the priority is how you sound, as long as the mouthpiece isn't holding you back.
IMO a Bach 1G will hold you back. I've tried to make it work multiple times and it simply doesn't, unless you just want to blast loud low notes - it doesn't have the core you need for softer and/or higher playing, or even medium dynamics and range.
There are much better options these days. Greg Black makes a 1 1/8th in a couple of different cup depths. Doug Elliot's system has many, many options and to me feels like a custom-tailored suit when it's all dialed in.

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:49 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:21 am I'm convinced that the critical parts of a mouthpiece's design are the bore/backbore, cup volume, and shoulder into the throat. You can swap out a rim and slightly alter the cup profile without really changing the character of the design.

I mostly agree - the rim (shape, mainly) determines a lot of the comfort factor, while sound is more a factor of other components. I recently went from DE's standard LB113 (narrow) to a LB113 mW (medium-wide), and comfort increased with no detectable downsides.

Rim diameter affects the response more than the comfort, IMO. And eventually will start to affect the sound if you go far enough. But the rest of the mouthpiece has much more influence.

I'm sure there is a point where that happens but I haven't hit it. I have my favorite alto piece at a 1.06" width and it sounds very bright and clear -- the same quality of sound as the much smaller original alto pieces in my collection. I would hit the point of not being able to play the thing around a 1.10" rim first before the sound became really bad.

I really did hit the sweet spot with what my embouchure likes because that size works on every type of trombone (except maybe soprano!)

Interesting - good to know. Does the cup/rim interface get weird when the disparity is that big?

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 8:42 pm Interesting - good to know. Does the cup/rim interface get weird when the disparity is that big?

What do you mean by get weird?

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 8:42 pm Interesting - good to know. Does the cup/rim interface get weird when the disparity is that big?

Not in my experience. Your chops do go into the cup but not by much. Your chops aren't really interacting with anything past maybe 1/8" or so into the cup where it meets the rim. Maybe 1/4" in the center of your chops where it's not touching anything.

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 8:42 pm Interesting - good to know. Does the cup/rim interface get weird when the disparity is that big?

I typically use my bass trombone rim (114) for instruments smaller than my everyday bass trombone, and I find I use a cup one size deeper than I probably would if I played a rim size more typical for that instrument. When the cup gets too shallow I find I get sort of an "oinky" sound in the low register that I find distasteful.

In other words, for smaller bass trombone (and euphonium I think - I just got one recently) I use a J cup rather than I, for large bore tenor I use an I cup rather than G or H, and for the rare occasion when I play bass trumpet I use an E cup rather than a C or D.

To the original question, I think you need to try some more options. Both the Bach 1G and Greg Black 1-1/4G have VERY large throats and take a LOT of air to play. I'm not sure what you mean specifically by comfortable, but a big aspect of comfort for me is ease, and I need for it to be easier than either of those mouthpieces give me.

Doug Elliott is my choice. You might also try something in the Griego Markey line.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:45 am
Doug Elliott is my choice. You might also try something in the Griego Markey line.

A free online consult with Doug then trying out some of his suggested rims/cups on approval worked for me. I’m based in England. Saved a lot of time and avoided playing anymore mouthpiece roulette that I’d been doing for too long.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:41 am When the cup gets too shallow I find I get sort of an "oinky" sound in the low register

Please don't let any composers know this...

martinong wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 3:41 am

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 8:42 pm Does the cup/rim interface get weird when the disparity is that big?

What do you mean by get weird?

I was thinking more of the physical connection from rim to cup - like a pronounced shelf. Of course the more important question is whether it influences the feel or sound, which other posters have indicated it mostly doesn't.

TomInME wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:59 pm

martinong wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 3:41 am What do you mean by get weird?

I was thinking more of the physical connection from rim to cup - like a pronounced shelf.

There is no discontinuity between the Rim and inside Cup of a Doug Elliott mouthpiece (as long as they are in the same series - e.g., LB 113 Rim to LB K Cup. The transition is smooth. Doug's designs are meticulous.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 1:34 pm There is no discontinuity between the Rim and inside Cup of a Doug Elliott mouthpiece (as long as they are in the same series - e.g., LB 113 Rim to LB K Cup. The transition is smooth. Doug's designs are meticulous.

I am aware of how good Doug's designs are (see below) and did not at any point suggest he would produce anything inferior - it was originally posed as a question, out of curiosity.

I didn't realize the larger series had such small cups available - SB and MB don't list 114 rims and MB doesn't list a C cup (although I'm sure Doug could custom them). LB does go as small as a C cup apparently, and small-shank backbores are available - not what I expected from a "Larger Bass" series, but nice to know it's possible.

Geordie wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:25 pm

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:45 am Doug Elliott is my choice. You might also try something in the Griego Markey line.

Saved a lot of time and avoided playing anymore mouthpiece roulette that I’d been doing for too long.

(emphasis added)
Finding the right mouthpiece is a process, but with Doug it's less random and a lot easier to dial in by trying neighboring sizes of different components rather than swapping out the whole thing. It still takes time, but it's productive time.

The risk is that his stuff is so good you won't want to let go of any of it even after you've settled on your "main" configuration. (see: "Your Doug Elliot collection" thread)

I make lots of stuff that I don't list. But only if it will actually work well.

Thanks for all the replies! I really want to try the Markey series but my country doesn’t have them I will look for a mouthpiece to try after my mandatory national service.

I have no problem sending something to Singapore if you want to try one of mine.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 1:31 pm I have no problem sending something to Singapore if you want to try one of mine.

That would be great! How can we chat?

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:41 am

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 8:42 pm Interesting - good to know. Does the cup/rim interface get weird when the disparity is that big?

I typically use my bass trombone rim (114) for instruments smaller than my everyday bass trombone, and I find I use a cup one size deeper than I probably would if I played a rim size more typical for that instrument. When the cup gets too shallow I find I get sort of an "oinky" sound in the low register that I find distasteful.

In other words, for smaller bass trombone (and euphonium I think - I just got one recently) I use a J cup rather than I, for large bore tenor I use an I cup rather than G or H, and for the rare occasion when I play bass trumpet I use an E cup rather than a C or D.

Do you change cup based on genre? Same rim, but smaller cup for big band and larger cup for orchestra for example?

That's the idea. Or for different instruments.

ScottZigler wrote: ↑Thu Aug 15, 2024 11:55 am Do you change cup based on genre? Same rim, but smaller cup for big band and larger cup for orchestra for example?

Yes, but not the way you're describing. For my everyday bass trombone I stick to one combination - XB114/M/M8 - regardless of genre. I want a range of tone color no matter what repertoire I'm playing, and this gives me the response I want to play in whatever range and dynamic I need.

When I change other aspects of the equipment I will change the mouthpiece combination to better fit that equipment, which is also being chosen to serve the music I'm playing.

For example, in the faculty concerts at my summer job at Kinhaven I am often called on to play mixed chamber works such as Stravinsky's Soldier's Tale, which is scored for "tenor-bass" trombone and has a fairly wide range that needs to be played with a lighter, more transparent sound than I typically need in an orchestra setting. My preference is to play a lighter but full-sized bass trombone, with two valves if I need them - LW slide being the biggest difference - and an LB114/J/J8 mouthpiece.

I also use the LB114/J but with a Conn-taper J8 backbore with my Conn 70H for choral works and smaller orchestra settings with an alto trombone at the top of the section.

Recently I've had a couple of situations where something in between made sense - bigger early Romantic or late Classical choral works - where my single valve Bach with a LW slide and an LB114/L/L8 worked great.

MahlerMusic wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:22 pm Comfort can change over time as you get use to a mouthpiece.

Very true. I'll play on a mouthpiece one day and not like it, then the next day it feels a lot better. I believe we can adapt quickly.

Ken Titmus here in Orlando FL, can cut the rim off both mouthpieces, thread the Black 'piece, and the Bach rim to fit together. This way, you have the rim you like and the sound of the black. Kenny used to work for Warburton, and does a perfect job!

You might also consider trying the stock Warburton pieces. They are comfortable for most, and sound great to my ears!

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:30 pm In general -- in pretty much any endeavor -- if you choose to stick with comfort, then you'll never improve. Think "I don't know coach ... I just don't feel comfortable doing all those exercises." Becoming skilled at anything always seems to require some degree of discomfort along the way. At the very least, if you switch to the Greg Black and get as comfortable as you can with that while working on your "sound", you'll have learned something valuable about using and comparing mouthpieces -- and about playing trombone more generally -- even if later you decide to go back to the Bach (which you probably won't).

For me it doesn't matter whether it is comfortable. I am using a schilkie 52d, it may be easier for beginners compare to greigo ones. Once I get how to control my breathe and my support went stronger, I found that the mouthpiece's or the instrument's resistance (or the rim diameter of the mpc) won't bother me a lot, and it's just the matter of how efficient your hardwares help you to amplify your sound (usually higher resistance ones are less efficient, but won't be uncomfortable). So just keep using the mouthpiece you use and go for techniques and stamina. One day you will find hardwares won't bother you a lot.

I do generally endorse Oystein Baadsvik's advice that "Mouthpieces are like wives. Pick one and stick with it." But that doesn't mean you shouldn't take some care in picking the one, and that which one you pick matters.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:19 am I do generally endorse Oystein Baadsvik's advice that "Mouthpieces are like wives. Pick one and stick with it." But that doesn't mean you shouldn't take some care in picking the one, and that which one you pick matters.

I can see the wisdom here, and you certainly should take care to choose correctly, and give your equipment a chance, but we're also lucky that equipment is also *not* like a human being -- you can ditch material things for better ones and nobody gets hurt. Your mouthpiece isn't trying its best to make your relationship work.

I agree with you, though, that switching equipment left and right without knowing what you're doing is not constructive.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:42 am ... you can ditch material things for better ones and nobody gets hurt. Your mouthpiece isn't trying its best to make your relationship work.

I should feel chastened by that, but we're coming up on our 50th wedding anniversary and it's true that I haven't had any of my mouthpieces that long. However, this also reminds me that I need to ditch several mouthpieces I no longer have a need for.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:18 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:42 am ... you can ditch material things for better ones and nobody gets hurt. Your mouthpiece isn't trying its best to make your relationship work.

...we're coming up on our 50th wedding anniversary ....

Congrats!

Well, we're not there quite yet -- about 2 more months.