TromboneChat

One of the things about musicians is that our whole lives long we never stop trying to get better. But we do it in an uneven, poorly focused manner where we just want to generally get better. Progress that way is infinitesimally slow and uneven. After a year, we might not really notice any improvement at all.

So let me challenge you.

Pick something you can't do, or can't do well, and dedicate the next year to mastering it. Post here in comments what you'll be working on, and next September you can look back and see your progress. You'll be able to post a brag about it and be proud of yourself, or you'll sheepishly avoid this thread because you didn't follow through. But either way you'll have a concrete goal, and a concrete result one year from today.

I want a rock solid double-high F (above double-Bb) and a double-pedal Bb on the tenor trombone without F-attachment.

My starting point is that I have a solid high G and a usable but thin double-Bb on the high end, and a weak pedal F on the low end.

Next year I'll post a video showing whether or not I developed my range that far.

Your turn. Time to commit to being better at one specific thing. Go!

(I fear everyone here is to chicken to do this publicly.)

My other goal is kind of silly. I want to be the first and only trombone player I've ever heard play "Donna Lee" at speed where it doesn't sound frantic and forced, but is smooth as butter.

If I get it, I'll post a video of that, too.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:04 pm
I want a rock solid double-high F (above double-Bb) and a double-pedal Bb on the tenor trombone without F-attachment.

What does this even mean? F6 and Bb(-1)?

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:04 pm (I fear everyone here is to [sic] chicken to do this publicly.)

Kinda mean, lol. Maybe some of us just don't want to do what you say!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:19 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:04 pm
I want a rock solid double-high F (above double-Bb) and a double-pedal Bb on the tenor trombone without F-attachment.

What does this even mean? F6 and Bb(-1)?

Yeah. My philosophy is that the extreme ends of your range don't sound great and aren't very usable. The trick is to make those extreme ends into your middle. If all I have is F5 it isn't very usable. It's extreme for me. But if I have an F6, playing in the F5 range is much easier. Same in the low range. The goal is to expand the usable range.

That's an unbelievably high note! I'm indeed too chicken to make that a goal

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:37 pm That's an unbelievably high note! I'm indeed too chicken to make that a goal

It's a fifth above what I have reliably now, and a third above my highest "squeak" notes. I think it's doable.

I want to improve my musicianship and improvisation creativity, and memorize many more things. But I enjoy the physical challenges, too.

I agree with developing the tonal range well beyond what you'll play in public.

Lately I don't work on the extremes of the high range, as I did when younger. I live alone so if I have a stroke while playing in octave 6, no one will find me for at least a week. Wouldn't be the worst way to go, though. I'd prefer it to plenty of other ways.

For things to work on of the more brute force type, I want to get back to my locked-in G5 where I can put slide vibrato on it and make it louder or softer, with good tone quality -- control it, in other words. I didn't have G5 like that in college, when I was playing the most. It came more than 20 years later, after I started taking Tom Ervin's advice to play familiar melodies in different keys. The epiphany was that playing melodies as beautifully as possible all over the horn's range is a tremendous embouchure strengthener. You're not just trying to produce the tones, you're trying to produce them with good quality. Very beneficial!

I used to be able to play 3-octave scales up and down in one breath. Usually I'd go with D or E-flat. I know this is nothing for some of you, and it wasn't for me, either. Now that I'm not practicing to play in public (I work full-time and have an outdoor hobby that consumes a lot of time and energy), I'm not challenging myself that much in my at-home playing.

My pedals tones are not as powerful as they once were. I know those will come along more easily than other things, if I invest the time.

A year from now? I might not be playing at all, or I'll be playing about as much as I am now, or I'll be playing a lot more. Hard to say.

If I were to post a video or two, I would demonstrate the locked-in G5 and the 3-octave up-and-down scale in one breath. Ho-hum, I suppose. Not everyone can do those things, but some can, and these abilities alone do not make me or anyone else a great trombonist.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:02 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:37 pm That's an unbelievably high note! I'm indeed too chicken to make that a goal

It's a fifth above what I have reliably now, and a third above my highest "squeak" notes. I think it's doable.

F6 is doable. I had it in college and was working on making it loud. Never got it super strong but the trumpeters seemed impressed that I could hit their high G on a trombone. At that time I was also able to grab a trumpet and produce their double-high C, with some volume, which impressed them more.

Just a little warning, which I'm not qualified to give since I'm no doctor, but I'm someone who has explored the extreme high range and know what it does to, well, at least me. I believe it is potentially dangerous to pursue the extreme high register, especially if you have health issues. I would think a person with very high blood pressure would do well to NOT pursue it.

We try not to hurt ourselves playing the trombone!

Well, my whish is to be able to play trumpet at a decent level and flugelhorn, cornet, french horn and tuba too. And decent is to be able to play any of these in a community orchestra without people rather had me play trombone, euphonium or bass trombone instead. You are right I am probably too chicken to promise I videotape my result and publish it here. I'm working at it and it is a slow progress getting better at it, especially now working on trumpet and tuba, because those are the hardest at the moment. A solid good any time (8:va) : is my goal on trumpet. On tuba, a 3 valve Bb tuba (small Yamaha model) I would like a reliable register from (8:va) and down as far as the valves take me.
Current state on trumpet is I can play that hight C in scales and arpeggios but not effortless so wouldn't play it in a tune. On trumpet I can play folksongs with a good sound up to a g. Current state on tuba is I have a good sound from (b) and down an octave. Struggeling with legato and arpeggios. Not sure I"ve settled on upstream or downstream. Since I'm downstream on trombone I guess I should keep that on tuba too, but at the moment both work. Yea, tuba is a long way travel, but getting better.

/Tom

I want to finish working through The Intermediate Trombone.

I want to develop more ease in playing. I still force things and work harder than I should when I play.

I think my goals for the year are simple…

The day job keeps getting in the way, so to be able to play at least 5 days a week would be awesome, and two, to continue to develop an appropriate embouchure. With Doug Elliott’s help, I found a lot of problems, and have been given the beginning steps to help ‘fix’ the issues that have been limiting me as a player, I just need to get in there and practice to bring up the repetition to create the muscle memory to drop old bad habits…which relates to goal number one.

After this, develop further goals to push towards becoming a better player.

LetItSlide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:19 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:02 pm
It's a fifth above what I have reliably now, and a third above my highest "squeak" notes. I think it's doable.

F6 is doable. I had it in college and was working on making it loud. Never got it super strong but the trumpeters seemed impressed that I could hit their high G on a trombone. At that time I was also able to grab a trumpet and produce their double-high C, with some volume, which impressed them more.

I don't really get it. When it comes to goals and interests, everyone has different ones. It's definitely a goal that you can measure progress on, though!

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:02 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:37 pm That's an unbelievably high note! I'm indeed too chicken to make that a goal

It's a fifth above what I have reliably now, and a third above my highest "squeak" notes. I think it's doable.

Sounds like trumpet player.

LetItSlide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:19 pm Just a little warning, which I'm not qualified to give since I'm no doctor, but I'm someone who has explored the extreme high range and know what it does to, well, at least me. I believe it is potentially dangerous to pursue the extreme high register, especially if you have health issues. I would think a person with very high blood pressure would do well to NOT pursue it.

We try not to hurt ourselves playing the trombone!

Huh. Interesting. I think if you're trying to get those notes with brute force -- which it sounds like you're implying -- yeah, you could stroke out if you're older and not careful. But one of the things I got hammered into my head playing with Watrous for 15 years was that everything you play should be effortless. Those notes are about mouth shape and air speed, not pounding it out. At least, that's what my double-Bb is. Since I don't have an F6 (yet!) I'm not really qualified to speak on it. But if it takes that brute force, I'll never get that note, since effortlessness is a requirement for me.

And I guess it's working so far, because several people have commented recently that, "Dana, you make that sound so effortless!," to which I reply, "That's because I don't put any effort into it."

I didn't have the patience when I was younger, so I used brute force. This resulted in damage that led to me laying off the horn for 15 years.

I assume that when reaching for the high range things will be a bit strained at the top of your range at first but then as muscles gain coordination it becomes effortless. That has happened for me with G4 and is starting to happen with Ab4. I can hit C5 but I am being slow and careful about it. I don't need a repeat of 15 years ago.

The pursuit of an ever increasing range is fun but probably doesn't get you much more music. Take piano: keys begin, keys end. You know there are 88 of them. Nobody can tell you any different. They are not infinite. You're infinite... And on those keys, the music that you can make... is infinite.

My goal, and it will take me longer than ten years, is to be able to play like a good singer can sing.

My ultimate goal with range is comfort and security. I am usually on second part but I had to read a first part at a concert a few months ago. Towards the end of the concert, an Ab4 popped up. I had to play it down an octave because I didn't think I could play it without risking injury from undue pressure. I would love to get to the point where those notes are not a source of risk or anxiety. I don't need a Bb5 but being able to see a Bb4 and not worrying about it would be a dream.

Granted, I was in a community band. So, I didn't have to go for it like my pay depended on it. But still...

chouston3 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 9:15 pm Towards the end of the concert, an Ab4 popped up. I had to play it down an octave because I didn't think I could play it without risking injury from undue pressure.

Ab4 should be in your range. Without injury.
Pressure is not the solution.
Keep practicing ... the right way.
Get professional help if needed.

I do have goals and try to be ambitious, but it's very difficult to commit. So many things continuously coming up in other areas of life.

Still what I want to achieve in 2025:
- Be secure enough on contra again to play it in public. Play it in at least one (probably trombone ensemble) concert
- Have developed my jazz improvisation skills to a level that I feel confident taking a few choruses of soloing with a bigband
- Have eliminated a certain feel of discomfort on alto (not specifically having trouble playing specific things, but overall not feeling well playing it)
- Further stabilize high range (+- C sharp upwards) including further reducing/eliminating a minimal move in the embouchure that I have around high D/Eb
- Eliminate a certain instability that I sometimes have on +- middle Gb. I kind of know the issue, but don't fully control it yet

How do I want to get there:
- Search and create performance opportunities. Already planning a trombone ensemble project for 2025 which will probably allow me to play contra. Will continue playing with the bigband. Might continue or create other ensemble opportunities. Might also search some solo opportunities
- Take lessons/educate myself on specific topics. Have already planned to take some contra lessons with a very very good contra player, might take some alto lessons with another great player and teacher. Will probably take some jazz lessons with some people I have in mind
- Be even more targeted and efficient with my practice time. Probably I will at some point create some sort of concrete practice schedule
- Consistently work on high range. As tbdana said: In order to get a certain range stable, I need to have some notes above "in reserve". I definitely find that stabilizing e.g. high F is easier when working up to e.g. Bb above
- Take up multi-track recordings again. I find this helps a lot in overall improving quality of my playing

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 9:02 pm The pursuit of an ever increasing range is fun but probably doesn't get you much more music. Take piano: keys begin, keys end. You know there are 88 of them. Nobody can tell you any different. They are not infinite. You're infinite... And on those keys, the music that you can make... is infinite.

My goal, and it will take me longer than ten years, is to be able to play like a good singer can sing.

That's a great goal.

My goal is to be more focused / "in the zone" when playing. It used to be natural but disappeared about a year ago (life events, I suppose). Technical work doesn't help, I need to work the expressive side of things.

Interesting topic. I'm now at the stage where in a year I'd just like to be able to continue playing. My range isn't what it used to be, my tone isn't what it used to be, my intonation isn't what it used to be. I can no longer play in any groups, so my playing is for my own enjoyment only.

I guess my main goal for the coming year is to improve my reading of my treble clef fake books (some are really hard to read because they seem to have been written with a dip pen that has a very spread nib). I occasionally get to play a little concert for my fellow nursing home residents, most of whom have the ability to turn down their hearing aids if they dislike what I'm playing

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:37 am ...I can no longer play in any groups, so my playing is for my own enjoyment only...I occasionally get to play a little concert for my fellow nursing home residents, most of whom have the ability to turn down their hearing aids if they dislike what I'm playing

Dude, you need to do some recruiting. Get some more players into that nursing home. You could have a little jazz combo. Do an album, "(Still) Live From the Nursing Home."

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:16 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 9:02 pm The pursuit of an ever increasing range is fun but probably doesn't get you much more music. Take piano: keys begin, keys end. You know there are 88 of them. Nobody can tell you any different. They are not infinite. You're infinite... And on those keys, the music that you can make... is infinite.

My goal, and it will take me longer than ten years, is to be able to play like a good singer can sing.

That's a great goal.

My goal is to be more focused / "in the zone" when playing. It used to be natural but disappeared about a year ago (life events, I suppose). Technical work doesn't help, I need to work the expressive side of things.

Do like this:



He is "in the zone" for the entire film, I think.

I‘m going for something less extreme but probably more useful to me for any actual real-world playing situations I will encounter:

Develop my range from C below the bass clef staff to F in the bass clef staff so it is consistently even, in tune, rich and efficient.

I listen to singers more than I listen to other trombone players.

In no particular order:

Peter Cetera
Bobby Caldwell
Luciano Pavarotti
Linda Rondstadt
Franco Corelli
Steve Walsh
Paul Rodgers
Lou Gramm
Michael Spyres
Andy Kuntz
Noora Louhimo
Ronny James Dio
Floor Jansen
Tommy Karevik

...and quite a few more.

Interesting question. I'm 62 and always love to practice and play. Don't think I get so much better to actually play. But I hope I get better to listen and understand what happens around. Technically I want to be better on double and triple tonguing. And high register. Doodle tonguing also.

Leif

Most people focus on way high and way low but forget what my former teacher would call "the money register." That's what we use 90% of the time we work. Work on that. The rest will follow.

Get more comfortable moving phrases around in every interval up to the octave

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:06 pm I want to be the first and only trombone player I've ever heard play "Donna Lee" at speed where it doesn't sound frantic and forced, but is smooth as butter.

If I get it, I'll post a video of that, too.

That's a high bar indeed!

Since I'm a raw beginner, I can get by with a more modest goal. How about the bass line to Lou Reed's Perfect Day; I think that may be manageable. Maybe. I'm actually finding this more challenging than expected.