TromboneChat

Any suggestions for bass bone m/p that works well/easy for a doubler (mainly tenor player)??
Currently using a Bach 2G...

So many choices. So many variables.
What tenor mouthpiece(s) do you use? What's your bass trombone?
What's wrong with your Bach 2G? Does it feel too small? Too large? Uncomfortable? Limits your range (high or low)?
In other words, you haven't provided enough information to give us much of a clue.
When I started doubling, I was fine with a Bach 2G / Bach 1½G / Yamaha 58 / Schilke 58.
(Now I have a Doug Elliott setup that I prefer.)

Bach 2G

I’d stick to the good 1 1/2G and 2G options before deciding you want to go bigger.

Pieces in this range I’ve liked include:

- Symington 2G and 1.5G
- Rath B2
- Greg Black 1 1/2G
- Doug Elliot MB series J or I setup with 107, 108 or 109 rim.

I’ve found all of these easy to feel comfortable on coming from small tenor, and I feel are upgrades from the similar standard Bach versions (but which era of Bach? They can vary a lot!). If you want to stay on a 2G size, you can’t go past the Symington 2, great mouthpiece!

In saying this though, there are plenty of players that double on much bigger mouthpieces and sound great, so as long as you find something that matches your sound concept you should be fine.

Greg Black 2GP?

I used a Faxx 1 1/2G for several years as a doubler. The smaller .276" throat I believe really helped out in the start.

I use a 2G width, relatively deep piece with a .312" throat. Sounds like a big bass piece, feels like my tenor rim, the blow is somewhere in between my tenor pieces and a 1.5G. Great for doubling.

Bass pieces with tenor sized throats don't get the job done in my book.

I am definitely a doubler, but I do enjoy playing my Conn 71H bass trombone. My mouthpieces of choice are a Conn Connstellation 3B or a Doug Elliott MB setup (MB J cup, J8 / C shank). Both have 7.49 mm (0.295") throats. Very comfortable for my playing.

I don't like the term doubler, because it makes me feel like bass trombone is just extra and it sets up lots of mental excuses. I prefer to think of myself as a really good tenor trombone player and a middling bass trombone player.

FWIW I also play a 2G on bass, and that works just fine. Certainly, the mouthpiece is not the limiting factor in my bass trombone playing. I wouldn't change mouthpieces unless I had a specific correction I needed to make and the mouthpiece was preventing me from making it.

And for comparison, I use a Marcinkiewicz Byron Peebles model for my large bore tenor, and a Bach 11C on my small bore tenor.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:04 am I use a 2G width, relatively deep piece with a .312" throat. Sounds like a big bass piece, feels like my tenor rim, the blow is somewhere in between my tenor pieces and a 1.5G. Great for doubling.

Bass pieces with tenor sized throats don't get the job done in my book.

This is definitely true, but the 1 1/2G was great training wheels until I learned to control my air. Now if I am coming off a long time just playing tenor, I go right to a Yamaha 59, which I think is another great recommendation. And they don't break the bank, which I probably have done now that I have around 20 bass trombone mouthpieces hanging around.

Right, I got ya. But if you use a real bass piece even the 1.5G ... Is it really a "doubler's piece"?

I want to be able to just pick up a bass and go. Assuming the backbore is balanced on all of them, I think there is a distinction between wide mouthpieces with deep cups and tenor throats, extremely wide mouthpieces with humongous throats and deep cups (like the 0G or whatever), and something like mine which is not very wide, but deep with a pretty large throat. I think the third type is something that hasn't been visited in a meaningful way (at least not recently) by bass trombonists. I love it as a sort of happy medium.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:43 pm Right, I got ya. But if you use a real bass piece even the 1.5G ... Is it really a "doubler's piece"?

I want to be able to just pick up a bass and go. Assuming the backbore is balanced on all of them, I think there is a distinction between wide mouthpieces with deep cups and tenor throats, extremely wide mouthpieces with humongous throats and deep cups (like the 0G or whatever), and something like mine which is not very wide, but deep with a pretty large throat. I think the third type is something that hasn't been visited in a meaningful way (at least not recently) by bass trombonists. I love it as a sort of happy medium.

You are describing a bass trombone Helleberg mouthpiece. I believe something like that has been made, although it never really caught on. I loved my Helleberg style mouthpieces on tuba, though.

Mrboneman1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:33 pm Any suggestions for bass bone m/p that works well/easy for a doubler (mainly tenor player)??
Currently using a Bach 2G...

I have a bunch of "good bass trombone mouthpieces" that I can sell to you. However if you're hitting all of the notes with a good sound on your 2G why change?

tbdana wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:00 pm I don't like the term doubler, because it makes me feel like bass trombone is just extra and it sets up lots of mental excuses. I prefer to think of myself as a really good tenor trombone player and a middling bass trombone player.

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure these are all that different? I would imaging thinking of myself as a middling at something would set me more up for excuses than thinking of myself as having two instruments I’m equally good at.

I used to play an Elliott 104N euph piece on bass and I got gigs on that setup all the time. It was hard for me not to think of it as equal because it was the same rim I was playing for tenor. After a few years, I can pretty comfortably pick up even a 114 rim and it feels home so I think “doublers” pieces can change over time for people

I still have a Shires 11/2 md for sale. $85 counting shipping to lower 48.


Fridge

I have a line specifically for doublers on my site, smaller rim sizes but very much a bass sound/feel.

https://www.librassco.com/broadway-bass-trombone

The LI Brass Broadway Bass piece is outstanding! I’ve been playing one for exclusively for when the occasional need to double comes along. Extremely forgiving when switching from a small bore setup to bass as routinely seen in musical books. Highly recommended!

Slydeguy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 5:44 am The LI Brass Broadway Bass piece is outstanding! I’ve been playing one for exclusively for when the occasional need to double comes along. Extremely forgiving when switching from a small bore setup to bass as routinely seen in musical books. Highly recommended!

I recommend the LIB Broadway as well. Works great!!!

I doubled between large bore tenor and Bass using a Giddings Mark 1. I played a Bach 5g on tenor. Both worked for me.

One of the best doublers in New York uses a 7C and a Minick L.

Bach 2G is a great choice and not expensive. You already have it! Case closed.

2G has a comically undersized back end. Cup and rim are great though.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:48 am 2G has a comically undersized back end. Cup and rim are great though.

Is that so? When I switched to bass trombone I started on a 1.5G. Found it too big so I bought a 2G and used that for a few months before I felt ready to go back to the 1.5G. I don't remember the specific dimensions regarding the 2G, but it was much easier air-wise than the 1.5

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:34 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:48 am 2G has a comically undersized back end. Cup and rim are great though.

Is that so? When I switched to bass trombone I started on a 1.5G. Found it too big so I bought a 2G and used that for a few months before I felt ready to go back to the 1.5G. I don't remember the specific dimensions regarding the 2G, but it was much easier air-wise than the 1.5

Bach 1.5G and 2G's, on paper, have the same tenor sized .276" throat. It's not the only factor that affects the blow, obviously. The length of the throat has a huge impact as well.

Many, possibly most of the modern bass pieces are above .310" in the throat.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:48 am 2G has a comically undersized back end. Cup and rim are great though

Harry,

You have developed a habit of extending your preferences to absolute generalizations. Many doublers, and apparently even many bass trombonists, have achieved success on Bach 2G (or 2G-sized) mouthpieces.

Unfortunately, 2Gs are not all the same! I have a Bach 2G that measures ~26.83mm Cup I.D. / 6.91mm Throat (vs Bach's spec of 26.76mm/7.00mm).

I am most certainly a doubler, but enjoy playing my (mere) Conn 71H single-valve bass trombone. (Meets my needs!) Before I got the 71H, I played bass with a Giardinelli 1G (~27.00mm Cup/7.10mm Throat). Now I enjoy (even more) using a Conn 3B Connstellation (~27.10 Cup/7.49mm Throat). All are smaller than your ideal minimum Throat of 7.87mm (0.310").

By the way, I believe that Doug Elliott's MB-series bass Cups and Shanks all have Throats of 7.49mm (0.295").

My takeaways:
• Numbers don't tell the whole story
• Individual preferences (and successes) vary
• Doublers may have, in general, different preferences than full-time bass trombonists

I play a Bach 2g. So, Harry, what would you recommend for a "doubler" like me?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 4:22 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:48 am 2G has a comically undersized back end. Cup and rim are great though

Harry,

You have developed a habit of extending your preferences to absolute generalizations. Many doublers, and apparently even many bass trombonists, have achieved success on Bach 2G (or 2G-sized) mouthpieces.

By the way, I believe that Doug Elliott's MB-series bass Cups and Shanks all have Throats of 7.49mm (0.295").

My takeaways:
• Numbers don't tell the whole story
• Individual preferences (and successes) vary
• Doublers may have, in general, different preferences than full-time bass trombonists

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 4:34 pm I play a Bach 2g. So, Harry, what would you recommend for a "doubler" like me?

Dana, give me a few years and I will make you one to try! My version of the 2G. But I'm not there yet on the manufacturing side, unfortunately

Posaunus, the Bach 2G is perfectly good, especially for doublers who are used to other Bach style mouthpieces with the .276" throat and open backbores. You're absolutely right that numbers don't tell the whole story, and the throat is just a way to dictate how the rest of the backbore needs to work. But you mention generalizations, and I look to mouthpieces like the Schilke 60, Yeo, Greg Black's stuff, the Griego named bass pieces ... They are in line with that number I gave. Again, I agree, it's just a number. But it is a way to control projection.

I think that expressing my (strong) opinions is usually a counterpoint to most discussions on this forum, so I gotta do what I gotta do. I play tenor pieces with .295-.308" throats and tighter backbores. To me, the Bach 2G doesn't have that oomph factor that even my tenor pieces do.

If you like the Bach 2G and want to try something similar but with a little bigger throat, the Greg Black 2G is (I believe Gabe told me this) a copy of a Mt. Vernon Bach 2G, but with some modifications to the throat for Ray Premru. Greg lists his 2G as a .281" bore.

I had a good Mt. Vernon 2G, but ultimately I ended up preferring my Elliott setups. At the time I was doing a ton of bass work and gravitated towards a larger rim. I also have a few really nice playing Long Island Brass pieces in that range but unfortunately there are no markings on it for me to say what they are. The rim is a touch wider than I typically prefer but they are very, very easy to play.

As a doubler I have found the Bach 1 1/4GM and Yeo way too open. Schilke 60 too but there might be more going on there.

I understand Harrison’s appreciation of larger mpcs, but it may be that he is an outlier.

I’m currently on a Black 2GP (“P” for Premru) .281” throat, which seems to work well in my 290.

Ah indeed:
viewtopic.php?t=14855

I had that Mt. Vernon back in like 2017 I want to say. That may have even been on TBF now that I think about it. I think I had asked if anyone was interested in copying it, and was informed it was already copied! 2GP seems to be the model that has those modifcations

I have to say that I’ve found the Black 2GP particularly satisfying to play.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:30 pm As a doubler I have found the Bach 1 1/4GM and Yeo way too open. Schilke 60 too but there might be more going on there.

I understand Harrison’s appreciation of larger mpcs, but it may be that he is an outlier.

I’m currently on a Black 2GP (“P” for Premru) .281” throat, which seems to work well in my 290.

The Schilke 60 is far too wide for me. It's huge! So is the Yeo. But there is something to the depth / backbore / throat with those pieces

I wouldn't want to recommend any specific mouthpiece, but in my opinion if you stay in the 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 size range, you cannot go too wrong. Saying it differently: If you get a mouthpiece in that range you don't have any general excuses like "that mouthpiece doesn't support low or high range enough, blabla...". So then it's up to you to make it work

Back in the Bad Old Days the Bach 3G mouthpiece was called a "tweener" and was used by people who wanted to play both tenor and bass. It's really too big for tenor and too small for bass, but there you go.

2G was considered the smallest bass mouthpiece.

Although, at one time a bass trombone used a 6½AL size -- we're talking 125 years or so ago.

I once played with a good amateur who played a 5G both on tenor and on bass.

He was pretty convinced that there is no need for anything bigger than the 5G.
No point in discussing with him, but there would have been some room for improvement...

MStarke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:10 am I once played with a good amateur who played a 5G both on tenor and on bass.

He was pretty convinced that there is no need for anything bigger than the 5G.
No point in discussing with him, but there would have been some room for improvement...

I mean, if it worked for him, that's all that matters, right? And everyone is different. That approach certainly does away with the problem of switching mouthpiece sizes. Just glad he didn't like the 12C for both.

MStarke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:10 am I once played with a good amateur who played a 5G both on tenor and on bass.

He was pretty convinced that there is no need for anything bigger than the 5G.
No point in discussing with him, but there would have been some room for improvement...

5G on bass? That's crazy town.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:48 am I mean, if it worked for him, that's all that matters, right?

It matters a lot if it doesn't work for him, but he believes it does.

What sounds like bass trombone on Steely Dan’s Royal Scam was said to be Dick Hyde on a Conn 88H. The boys must have liked it because it’s mixed pretty high.

I once got complimented on my “great bass trombone sound” playing a Shires .525 with a Schilke 51. It has a trigger, it must be a bass trombone right?

Whatever works.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:14 am What sounds like bass trombone on Steely Dan’s Royal Scam was said to be Dick Hyde on a Conn 88H. The boys must have liked it because it’s mixed pretty high.

I once got complimented on my “great bass trombone sound” playing a Shires .525 with a Schilke 51. It has a trigger, it must be a bass trombone right?

Whatever works.

I totally believe smaller pieces can work on bass bone, and that you can play low notes on smaller horns. When I was playing a lot, I had a pedal C on an 88h with a 5G. It wasn't anything you'd want to listen to, but it was there. These days I'm in a slump. Even on the big horn with big pieces I can't do what I used to do on smaller equipment. Regardless of mouthpiece. I've tried a huge range, and get the same results. Just to say that it's not always a hardware problem. Not that I know what the problem IS, but I'm pretty sure it's not a hardware problem.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:48 am

MStarke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:10 am I once played with a good amateur who played a 5G both on tenor and on bass.

He was pretty convinced that there is no need for anything bigger than the 5G.
No point in discussing with him, but there would have been some room for improvement...

I mean, if it worked for him, that's all that matters, right? And everyone is different. That approach certainly does away with the problem of switching mouthpiece sizes. Just glad he didn't like the 12C for both.

Well, it worked in terms of he got all the relatively easy notes and sounded okay in an amateur setting. But not in terms of playing really difficult charts and sounding great.

I started my bass playing with an Elliott 104N/XTC/C8 lol: I had a bigger piece (XT G/G8) at the time, too, but it worked for what I was doing it for (swing band with a few more modern pieces). I've never had a problem getting down to pedal G and lower on a 104N rim though on even the shallowest of cups.