TromboneChat

1. Alto or tenor in Tragic Overture?

2. Anybody have a link to a warm-up/daily routine for alto?

1 Alto
2 Branimir Slokar:Schule fūr Altposaune, you can find it on Scribd.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 3:42 pm 1. Alto or tenor in Tragic Overture?

From the historical point of view: tenor
The Tragic Overture was composed in the summer of 1880, and premiered in Vienna in December 1880. At that time, the trombonists of the Vienna Court Opera/Philharmonic played on valve trombones in the formation tenor, tenor, bass. It wasn't until 1883 that the Vienna trombonists were required to switch back (after nearly fifty years) to slide trombones. Three trombonists left the orchestra at that time and three slide trombonists, including one who played alto, were recruited from Germany.

Howard

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 3:42 pm 2. Anybody have a link to a warm-up/daily routine for alto?

One option, use your parts of your tenor routine in reverse. Where you might start on a Bb in 1st and move down the slide, start on Bb in 6th and move up the slide.

HowardW wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:53 am

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 3:42 pm 1. Alto or tenor in Tragic Overture?

From the historical point of view: tenor
The Tragic Overture was composed in the summer of 1880, and premiered in Vienna in December 1880. At that time, the trombonists of the Vienna Court Opera/Philharmonic played on valve trombones in the formation tenor, tenor, bass. It wasn't until 1883 that the Vienna trombonists were required to switch back (after nearly fifty years) to slide trombones. Three trombonists left the orchestra at that time and three slide trombonists, including one who played alto, were recruited from Germany.

Howard

I wonder what they would have used for 1st in 1883?

So from a historical point of view we should certainly play it on a tenor valve trombone. Which I never did. Maybe next time.
I did however play it many times on slide tenor before switching to slide alto, which I much prefer. With Brahms this will obviously be very subjective, there is no right answer I think. But maybe the alternatives should rather be either valved tenor for historical correctness or slide alto because perhaps that’s what he was imagining?

I think it's more important to consider how the composer conceived of the part rather than what instrument happened to be available at that time, in one specific place. We know that Brahms wrote in a letter dated 1859 that he preferred a "genuine", "little" alto trombone, and specifically not a tenor trombone. Tragic Overture was 20 years later, but it would be difficult to believe he forgot that he liked the alto trombone and developed an affinity for valved tenor.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:54 pm I think it's more important to consider how the composer conceived of the part rather than what instrument happened to be available at that time, in one specific place. We know that Brahms wrote in a letter dated 1859 that he preferred a "genuine", "little" alto trombone, and specifically not a tenor trombone. Tragic Overture was 20 years later, but it would be difficult to believe he forgot that he liked the alto trombone and developed an affinity for valved tenor.

Two things with this, though.
1)Tragic Overture was written when he'd been living in Vienna for quite some time. It's hard to argue the sound he was used to and "had in mind" was anything else than valve trombones with tenor on top by then, whether that's what he preferred or not. Composers did, at least to some extent, write for what they knew would be used, not just for an abstract idea. Case in point is comparing Brahms' own writing for the trombones in the first symphony (which he started writing long before his move to Vienna, and which was not premiered in Vienna) versus the later symphonies that were written and premiered in Vienna. The writing, especially in the bass, is clearly different.

2) We need to be careful with that famous letter for a couple of reasons. That letter is often misconstrued to imply Brahms had a preference for alto in general, but that's not actually the content of the letter. It is a reply to someone asking about what instruments to use for a very specific piece, the Begräbnisgesang. For one, that piece is one of the very first things he ever wrote for trombones, he had very limited experience with the instrument. So even if we take it as expressing a general opinion, I would caution against assuming his opinion never changed in the decades that followed. And also, the piece is for winds and choir, it's a funeral song meant to be played while processing into the graveyard, or at least to evoke that procession, and it is very peculiarly written, clearly intended to sound very old-fashioned. It is stylistically quite foreign to his orchestral compositions. I would strongly caution against taking his directive about this very particular piece and unusual context, and assuming it should by extension apply to everything he ever wrote. If we're going to use conjecture as to what this reasons were to recommend in that letter an alto (and if possible a long bass), I would rather venture the guess that it was meant to achieve what he thought of as a more "ancient" sound, fitting this very particular piece.

WRT #2, I found a nice warmup on Alex Knutrud’s site.

WRT #1, I found the part on IMSLP and I’ll see how it goes.

Two further thoughts and caveats with the historical point of view:

First, I think it's interesting information and it should ideally inform your ideas about the piece, but I wouldn't say you should infer from it any strict imperative in terms of instrument choice when in a modern orchestra, where every instrument is quite different than those of the time. I've played Brahms both on modern and more recently on period instruments (the last time just two days ago in fact), and let me tell you, it is an utterly, completely different sound. Playing a tenor versus an alto trombone has no impact on that difference and is not going to make your performance any more or less "historical".

Second, we tend to overfocus on what was used at the premiere and/or what the composer had in mind. But neither of those are always representative of historical practices more broadly – for example, the Brahms Requiem was partially premiered in Vienna, where Brahms lived and worked, but the full premiere was in Bremen, where they wouldn't have been using valve trombones (or Viennese horns, or Viennese oboes, etc.) So, which is "correct"? Or, do subsequent contemporary performances in, say, Berlin or Leipzig of a work written and/or premiered in, say, Vienna or Essen, hold any less historical relevance to us than the premiere? In other words, even when we are playing historical instruments, are we trying to specifically and exactly replicate the premiere of a work (which simply cannot and will not ever be done), or to capture historical practice and present a performance that plausibly could have been heard then? I personally find the latter to be much more interesting.

A story: I have friends who have a string quartet on historical instruments. I've heard them play Haydn's "The Sun" quartet using not the usual Urtext edition, but instead the most common 18th-century edition, which today no string quartet would approach with a ten-foot pole because it is a drastic departure from the composer's intention (full of dynamic, bowing and articulation markings that have nothing to do with Haydn's manuscripts and in many places completely invert the intention). But the point was that 18th-century musicians didn't have an Urtext edition. If you heard that piece played in Haydn's lifetime, chances are you heard musicians playing from that widely distributed "flawed" edition. One could argue that as a snapshot of actual historical practice, it has more far more relevance than a "true-to-the-composer's-intention" performance (whatever that actually means).

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 1:17 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:54 pm I think it's more important to consider how the composer conceived of the part rather than what instrument happened to be available at that time, in one specific place. We know that Brahms wrote in a letter dated 1859 that he preferred a "genuine", "little" alto trombone, and specifically not a tenor trombone. Tragic Overture was 20 years later, but it would be difficult to believe he forgot that he liked the alto trombone and developed an affinity for valved tenor.

Two things with this, though.
1)Tragic Overture was written when he'd been living in Vienna for quite some time. It's hard to argue the sound he was used to and "had in mind" was anything else than valve trombones with tenor on top by then, whether that's what he preferred or not. Composers did, at least to some extent, write for what they knew would be used, not just for an abstract idea. Case in point is comparing Brahms' own writing for the trombones in the first symphony (which he started writing long before his move to Vienna, and which was not premiered in Vienna) versus the later symphonies that were written and premiered in Vienna. The writing, especially in the bass, is clearly different.

2) We need to be careful with that famous letter for a couple of reasons. That letter is often misconstrued to imply Brahms had a preference for alto in general, but that's not actually the content of the letter. It is a reply to someone asking about what instruments to use for a very specific piece, the Begräbnisgesang. For one, that piece is one of the very first things he ever wrote for trombones, he had very limited experience with the instrument. So even if we take it as expressing a general opinion, I would caution against assuming his opinion never changed in the decades that followed. And also, the piece is for winds and choir, it's a funeral song meant to be played while processing into the graveyard, or at least to evoke that procession, and it is very peculiarly written, clearly intended to sound very old-fashioned. It is stylistically quite foreign to his orchestral compositions. I would strongly caution against taking his directive about this very particular piece and unusual context, and assuming it should by extension apply to everything he ever wrote. If we're going to use conjecture as to what this reasons were to recommend in that letter an alto (and if possible a long bass), I would rather venture the guess that it was meant to achieve what he thought of as a more "ancient" sound, fitting this very particular piece.

I understand your caveats, but look at what we're arguing. It was suggested that the Tragic Overture should be played on a valved tenor trombone because that was supposedly used for the premiere. The implied assumption is that Brahms knew he was writing for that instrument and changed his style of writing because that was the sound he had in mind when he wrote it. And I just don't see any evidence that was the case. Yes, the letter was in regard to a specific piece, and it doesn't conclusively prove that he was writing in that style for everything he ever wrote. But compare that to the absolute absence of ANY evidence that he ever preferred a valved tenor. I really don't see a change in compositional style in his later works. He sticks to a very conservative ATB style of trombone voicing. He never uses the first trombone as a bass voice as many other composers did. I get your point that he may have accepted that the low range for the 3rd trombone was limited and wrote accordingly, but I don't think he changed the overall concept. So I don't see anything wrong with performing Brahms on a slide alto trombone. It seems to fit the music very well, in my opinion.

I think we are arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

At the end of the day, the guy waving the stick will (or may not) have an idea of what sound fits his interpretation. Play what you want and if he tells you to use a different instrument (and you can play it) then and only then do you need to change.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:21 pm It was suggested that the Tragic Overture should be played on a valved tenor trombone ...

I was the one who inserted the valve tenor trombone into the discussion, but I in no way suggested that tenor valve trombone should be used today in the Tragic Overture! The question was "tenor or alto," to which I answered "tenor." I did provide some historical background as "food for thought."

... because that was supposedly used for the premiere.

Not "supposedly," but "certainly"! The members of the Vienna Court Opera Orchestra did not have their own instruments, but were required to play the instruments lent to them by the court orchestra -- this was common practice back then in many places -- and at that time the court orchestra used valve trombones.
I have meanwhile taken a look at the trombone parts in the overture, and stand with my suggestion of tenor trombone for the first part: I didn't see anything in the first part that cries out for alto: one b-flat', twice a', the rest in the middle range. Of course, if you want to play it on alto, be my guest -- it's your decision.
Otherwise, I pretty much agree with what Maximilien has written.

Howard

Always interesting to see these questions. As some others have said it's in the end a matter of conductor (or player) preference.

These days I am subbing with an amateur orchestra that is among others playing Schubert's Unfinished. I brought both alto and tenor and the conductor clearly stated before the rehearsal that he preferred alto. Definitely the better choice sound-wise as the orchestra is quite small. However intonation is so all over the place in that orchestra that admittedly I didn't always feel confident myself regarding tuning on alto. That would have been easier on tenor.

So especially in settings that are not that stable intonation-wise, tenor may be the much easier and thereby potentially also better choice.

HowardW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:35 am I have meanwhile taken a look at the trombone parts in the overture, and stand with my suggestion of tenor trombone for the first part: I didn't see anything in the first part that cries out for alto: one b-flat', twice a', the rest in the middle range. Of course, if you want to play it on alto, be my guest -- it's your decision.
Otherwise, I pretty much agree with what Maximilien has written.

Howard

Neither does it cry out for tenor. I don't think that kind of perfunctory analysis tells us anything. Brahms wrote up to D in other pieces, but the absolute range isn't the point. We don't use alto trombone simply to make the high range easier; it's about the sound and the style of the music. And I think Brahms always wrote for the trombones not as a homogeneous group, but as 3 individual voices. Here's an example from the second symphony:
It's a solo part; the first trombone is tacet. Why is it in the second trombone part? Other composers would have simply put it in the first part, because that's where solos go. But it's in the tenor range, and in Brahms' music, all individually played trombone lines are always in the the trombone part that matches the alto, tenor, or bass tessitura of the line. And as I said before, the first trombone never descends into the bass range, even though that range would be eminently playable on a tenor trombone. Whether he actually had an alto trombone at his disposal isn't the point; it's a style of writing, and alto trombone fits that style. I read somewhere that Bolero was actually premiered on a Conn 8H. But when I play it, I use a small bore tenor, because I consider what was in the composer's mind when he wrote it to be more important than what it ended up actually being performed on.

I think tenor trombone would be a perfectly valid choice for this piece, but I don't think alto is any less valid.

I think that Brahms solo 2nd trombone example is interesting because it would be dangerous on alto. 7th position sucks on most altos. Maybe it’s in the 2nd part because the first was playing an Eb instrument and 7th position stinks. I don’t know. Just a thought.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 3:42 pm 2. Anybody have a link to a warm-up/daily routine for alto?

Micah Everett wrote a short routine for alto, intended for use after you've done your main instrument warmup.
https://olemiss.edu/lowbrass/routines.html

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:25 pm I think that Brahms solo 2nd trombone example is interesting because it would be dangerous on alto. 7th position sucks on most altos. Maybe it’s in the 2nd part because the first was playing an Eb instrument and 7th position stinks. I don’t know. Just a thought.

I don't think so. Howard says they would have been playing tenor, and I believe him because he knows a lot. And Brahms didn't strictly avoid E. There is an E in the first part in that symphony, and in his other symphonies too.