TromboneChat

The description of the q alessi bell is two piece, unsoldered, light weight, which translates to a 2YLW. I tried a Q Alessi today and it didn't really work for me, but when I combined the bell+valve with my slide, it was much more focused and had a REALLY nice ring to it- like the room was ringing a bunch, which I couldn't get (not as much anyway) from the other combinations. I wasn't a fan of the valve thought, I think I'm just more of an axial guy.

Anyway, would it be recommend that I pruchase a 2YLW with gold brass tuning slides to use with my current axial and slide, or would it be much more different than the Q Alessi bell, especially with the axial instead?

Apologies, this is a bit of a wall of text, but I swear there's a point to it. The model is described by them as:

JA Bell: 8.5-inch, two-piece, hand-hammered “TI” taper in lightweight yellow brass with traditionally brazed seams, unsoldered bead, and special annealing treatment

I would suspect that the closest nomenclature would therefore be a 2YLWAn where N would be the annealing number. In the Shires Q&A thread from the old TBC, Ben (from Shires, at the time) mentioned:

4.) You will forgive me if I do not reveal completely everything about annealing treatments. In general, annealing will provide a slightly warmer sound and more timbral flexibility of lower overtones, sometimes at the expense of clarity/brilliance. In general, I recommend these only to specific players. A4 for tenor, A5 for bass, and only on particular models.

So, it's probably something really similar to a 2YLWA4. That said, what slide do you have? What leadpipe do you have in it? The "Q" slide is probably the equivalent of a TW47 and probably had a "2" taper leadpipe. If you have a TB47, T47, etc., and a "1" or "3" pipe (or it was a different pipe), everything you've said makes total sense. The slide, especially the lead pipe, makes an enormous difference in how something responds.

Something I will caution you on is this statement:

I wasn't a fan of the valve thought, I think I'm just more of an axial guy.

Given your description, it kind of sounds like you were a fan. In my opinion, it's not uncommon for people to over-index the importance of the valve for the whole setup. For Example, say, "I want a trombone that works well with a Thayer valve," rather than, "I have a set of components, and I want to find an appropriate valve that works with this setup." There are very valid historical reasons for this; for example, Bach 42 was really popular (and still is), and when the Thayer valve was released, it was common for people to replace Bach valves with aftermarket Thayer valves. This setup worked well because Thayer valves tend to work well with a Bach 42-style setup (Bass crook, compact leadpipe, one-piece soldered bell).

The one combination it does not sound like you tried was the Alessi bell on your Thayer valve and slide, yet that is what you want to purchase; do I understand this scenario right? Is it feasible for you to try it first with that combination?

My experience is, and you should take this with a massive grain of salt, that type 2 bells do not work very well with Thayer valves. Likewise, I typically don't like type 5 bells with rotors. I've played exceptions to this, but I wouldn't buy one of these combinations blind, personally.

Type 2 bells have an unsoldered bell bead (as do type 8 bells), which generally favors a broad/wider sound. Thayers also tend to contribute to this sensation, so the combination of these together (especially with an 'open' pipe like a "3") will make ahorn feel really unfocused to me. On the flip side, Type 1,5,7 bells have a soldered bell bead and are typically more "focused". Type 1 is a traditional two-piece construction, Type 5 are one-piece (like Bach bells), and Type 7 is a method of making a Type 1 with weight distribution that has some of the positive characteristics of a one-piece bell.

Given your bio, you either put your Bach 42 slide on it or your Q30GA slide on it. I'm guessing it was your Q30 slide, which should be pretty much identical to the QAlessi slide. As such, I'm guessing a few things:

1. The leadpipe in your slide worked better than whatever leadpipe was in the demo.
2. Depending on how you tried these bells out, something was off about the slide you were playing on (not rare at all, especially at a show/convention or demo instruments)
3. Part of what you liked about the setup were the compactness that the rotor gave you.

Each of the valve sections has pros and cons, as do every other component. Something else you'll hear people say is they like "positive attribute a" from something (like a mouthpiece), and they want that but "positive attribute b" a different component. As an extreme example: "I want a mouthpiece that feels as open as the 4G I played, but with the high range and clarity of the 12C". Well, those attributes might be mutually exclusive, often times the equipment we choose has a tradeoff. A rotor on a type 2 bell is a popular combination, among them, the focus you get!

Now, I am the king gearhead. I like trying components. I've bought things that I suspected would be total flops. I was right most of the time. Sometimes I've been surprised! I think it's fun to have a variety of combinations. That said, I think your approach to try to part out piecemeal might not be the best use of your resources. I would recommend going in with an end-state in mind. So if you've already tried a Thayer with the Alessi and a gold brass slide, by all means, disregard this.

On the other hand, if you want to have a set of components that works well together, I'd try to find someway to try out all of those combinations and do something such as 1) order a bell and tuning slide that works with the Q30 slide and Thayer valve you have or 2) replace the whole bell section with a bell section where you've tried each component in unison or 3) something else you haven't considered.

It sounds like you liked the focus you got with the Alessi bell section on your Q30 slide. If focus is something you think you lack (especially given that you already have a Type 1 bell which traditionally is more focused than Type 2), you might want to consider a few things:

1. Have a good tech make sure your bell section is built without stress. Ensure that your thayer valve isn't leaky and is properly oiled. Ensure your slides (tuning and hand) don't have any leaks, are properly aligned, etc.
2. Something that is less "open" than the leadpipe you have now. (If you're on a 2, a 1.5 or some of the Bach 42 replca pipes that are in vogue now might be a good, much less expensive than a bell).
3. A valve that is less "open" than the Thayer you have. Shires has like 8 million valve options.

Or, in short, it seems your priority here is to have more focus, and you are proposing three components that I would typically associate with a broader (at the expense of focused) sound. It might work out, but if I were betting on it, I wouldn't necessarily take those odds.

I'm not going to get into the weeds of Matt's diatribe except to say that the most popular Edwards combination for many years included a Thayer valve and a bell with an unsoldered bead (321CF).

To the original question: I don't know if the Q Alessi bell is exactly the same design as the Custom Alessi bell, but to the best of my knowledge the Custom Alessi bell is an 8YLW A5.

An 8Y and a 2Y are noticeably different in my experience. For a time I played a BI 2YM as my primary bell, and then I tried a BI 8YM for a while. I found the 8YM to respond with a bit more solidity and consistency around all registers and dynamics, but ultimately I found there was a hardness to the sound I did not enjoy. It would not surprise me if the annealing treatment tames that hardness and brings some welcome warmth to the sound.

Thus my caveat to take the pre coffee suggestion with a massive grain of salt!!

That’s surprising to me given the relative unpopularity of type 8 bells, but it makes more sense than a 2 bell given the rest of the specs.

Given that it’s an 8 bell, the main point of my last post was that both components OP was about to buy were going towards broad, rather than focused… the choice makes more sense than I originally thought

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 11:17 am Thus my caveat to take the pre coffee suggestion with a massive grain of salt!!

That’s surprising to me given the relative unpopularity of type 8 bells, but it makes more sense than a 2 bell given the rest of the specs.

Given that it’s an 8 bell, the main point of my last post was that both components OP was about to buy were going towards broad, rather than focused… the choice makes more sense than I originally thought

I have read your other response as well! But considering it's closer to the 8 bells, would you recommend I get that with the gold tuning slide? Also, yes I tried it with my Q30 slide, a 2 leadpipe, and a LIBrass 4G equivalent (forget what it's called) with a 1.5 shank. However, I tried with the entire bell/valve/tuning slide section, since I didn't want to take everything apart and risk damaging things, not to mention my instrument needed to be realigned, so I wasn't sure if it would even fit properly. The plan was to buy a 2YLW and a TG to pair with my current setup, but now it seems like I should go for an 8YLWA5? Considering what you said, would it also be worth investing in a rotor/dual bore valve if it doesn't work well with my axial? I know the best case is to buy what I tried, but the shop won't sell just parts, he says he can order a new one, but it might be pretty different from the one I tried, and I know it's a me problem, but I also hate having artist's signatures on my equipment, so I wanna do the custom equivalent (I know it's a me problem, and I might just have to get over that if I want the best equipment for myself ).

Edit: if buying blind, would you recommend the 7 bells first, since it's the most popular? I live in a small area, so I can't practically try stuff before buying, unfortunately. Oh! Also, my sound on the Q was really focused, I've heard a few people say it sounds like an old classic Conn 88h. I was looking for something slightly warmer and bigger since it can get bright and laser-y at loud dynamics. The combo I tried was still focused, and colorful, with the RING, but also filled out the room slightly more. It also felt slightly more open, which suited my playing style better, which I thought was odd considering the rotor. If any of that helps. Thanks!

I don't like having am artist signature on my equipment either. Except for the artist who actually designed and/or built it...

One of my favorite Shires bells is the 2YM. It's a little heavier/thicker than the Alessi or Colin Williams (2YLWT7 I think, or maybe T8) models, but not so heavy that it's thuddy or inarticulate and very easy to sound big and warm.

The plan was to buy a 2YLW and a TG to pair with my current setup, but now it seems like I should go for an 8YLWA5?

I would 110% trust anything Gabe said about this.

Considering what you said, would it also be worth investing in a rotor/dual bore valve if it doesn't work well with my axial?

I really like the dual-bore rotors, personally. This is where the grain of salt comes in b/c I'm going to bias this towards setups I've had that I've really liked. The dual bore rotors are still very focused but give a little more broadness to the sound, at least that's been my experience, especially when engaged vs. disengaged. I almost kept my dual-bore rotor when I switched to Getzen stuff last year, and just had it added.

But this is why I was suggesting you might want to do more of a gestalt approach to this. If you have the budget for a valve, man I would really consider getting fitted and get a full bell section that is just right, rather than getting part of it and then continually tweaking it. Especially since you already have essentially a TW47. That slide will probably work well with most setups you put on it.

I know the best case is to buy what I tried, but the shop won't sell just parts, he says he can order a new one, but it might be pretty different from the one I tried,

Given that 1) you've already expressed your parts are not in particularly good alignment and 2) you may not order a full bell section, I would leave room in your budget to have a good, local tech if possible, make sure the parts are all aligned with a reasonable amount of precision. Shires (or anyone) can only do so good if they don't physically have access to all the parts they are assembling.

So if you order a new bell, I would be less worried about it not playing exactly as this one does, because once you have it properly aligned, I would be pretty confident it would play very well. Or at least, no more than baseline risk of ordering anything that you haven't tried before.

Edit: if buying blind, would you recommend the 7 bells first, since it's the most popular?

I would, personally. It's a very "safe" choice. Especially for use with a Thayer valve. But, as noted, please take that with a grain of salt. As Gabe pointed out, Edwards had a very popular combination with an unsoldered beat. I just have personally never played a thayer valve w/ unsoldered bell bead I like. I have, admittedly, not tried more than a handful. It might be a wonderful combination for you.

I live in a small area, so I can't practically try stuff before buying, unfortunately. Oh! Also, my sound on the Q was really focused, I've heard a few people say it sounds like an old classic Conn 88h. I was looking for something slightly warmer and bigger since it can get bright and laser-y at loud dynamics. The combo I tried was still focused, and colorful, with the RING, but also filled out the room slightly more. It also felt slightly more open, which suited my playing style better, which I thought was odd considering the rotor. If any of that helps. Thanks!

It's hard for us to make a personal recommendation w/o being you in some ways. Again, many, many grains of salt here. And also note that I don't believe I have ever purchased an instrument new. Depending on your location, timeframe, and need to swap it would probably behoove you to make a road trip, fly, whatever to try out components. A $300 flight that ends up locking you in can save you buying a $2000 valve down the road, afterall. A call with Alexis might be able to get you something w/o the trip even too. So do take advantage of her expertise, she does fit people and has up-to-date and proprietary knowledge of this stuff.

If you had a gun to my head and said I needed to pick out a set of components for you to order based on everything you have said, I would probably go 7YLW, dual bore rotor, gold brass tuning slide. You're looking for a little more focus (you'd be switching from gold brass bell to a lighterweight yellow bell, a type 1 to a type 7, and a thayer to a dual bore). It's like one step back on the focus side from what I now know about the setup you tried (rotor, yellow type 8 bell, gold brass tuning slide).