Best Dependent bass design?

[SamBTbrn]

In your opinions what is the best valve set up/positioning for a dependent bass? ie in a line like the Conn 62h or diagonally stacked like the Kings?

[tbonesullivan]

I'm not really sure it matters that much. Also don't forget that there are some designs that due to the valve (like a Hagmann) necessarily need to be mounted farther away.

One of the dependent basses I see most often these days is actually the Yamaha YBL-822G Doug Yeo model, which is definitely a great improvement on the original Kleinhammer model with the "bird's nest" valve. That has the second valve quite a bit far away from the first valve, but works just fine.

In terms of ergonomics and feel, I honestly am so in love with the Yamaha lever design and location that I don't know if I'd ever be able to play a double trigger bass not set up exactly the same way.

[Burgerbob]

independent M&W rotors

Wait...

[Matt K]

I like the 2nd valve to be nested just above the F valve. That seems to work best from a balance perspective on the horns I've tried.

[Thrawn22]

As much as I dislike Yamaha the Doug Yeo dependent rotor design was quite good. Other than that I've preferred stacked.

Here's what I got...

[mrdeacon]

I’ve become fond of the Rath/Shires/Greenhoe style dependent setups. I really like my R9 Rotax dependent valve section.

I feel like they have a good balance in hand and you don’t run into space issues with larger valves like you do if you try to build a valve section with the valves side by side.

[hornbuilder]

This is my favorite.

[LIBrassCo]

My two favorites

[hyperbolica]

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.

Dependent horns are ok as long as you're a new bass player or never have an urge to use the second lever by itself. As soon as you want to use it, you can't go back. It's ok, there's no shame in avoiding the second lever by itself. Lots of people made a career on dependent bass. So what? You play a few more 5th positions.

[jonathanharker]

I really like my 1999 S.E. Shires with stacked F and D (Shires-built) Greenhoe valves. It can bang out a good low C and B no problem, really good action, no valve pop, no stuffy nonsense in the low register.

(Image CC-BY on Wikimedia Commons)

[LIBrassCo]

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.

Dependent horns are ok as long as you're a new bass player or never have an urge to use the second lever by itself. As soon as you want to use it, you can't go back. It's ok, there's no shame in avoiding the second lever by itself. Lots of people made a career on dependent bass. So what? You play a few more 5th positions.

Shots fired!

[hyperbolica]

Shots fired!

Don't take it the wrong way. I don't mean to disparage new or boutique horns, but I just don't think someone buying a new bone for ~$7 is going to want a dependent, even if the second valve is removable.

Duo Gravis is the only dependent that anyone goes out looking for by name, and maybe just because of its commercial sound reputation due to small tubing diameter through the valves. Nobody makes anything like it these days, not even the Chinese.

[LIBrassCo]

Shots fired!

Don't take it the wrong way. I don't mean to disparage new or boutique horns, but I just don't think someone buying a new bone for ~$7 is going to want a dependent, even if the second valve is removable.

Duo Gravis is the only dependent that anyone goes out looking for by name, and maybe just because of its commercial sound reputation due to small tubing diameter through the valves. Nobody makes anything like it these days, not even the Chinese.

Oh I don't think it's any secret dependent horns are a woefully unpopular choice these days. My personal tastes, however, find them infinitely more desirable.

[atopper333]

Oh I don't think it's any secret dependent horns are a woefully unpopular choice these days. My personal tastes, however, find them infinitely more desirable.

Totally agree! If I had the money and the time to take on bass seriously…I’d definitely be going for a dependent. The ones you posted, the M and W, and that Shires are works of art, and I’m betting they sound amazing! Personal taste I guess…but that’s definitely what I’m going to be going for one of these days!

[SamBTbrn]

This is my favorite.

Thanks for the replies everyone, feel free to elaborate on why they are your favorite choices!

Is there a reason that makes the diagonals your choice of build Mattew? Is it a sound thing or just an ergonomics?

Cheers
Sam

[Wilco]

I love hagmann Conn design Erik van Lier did! Awesome:)

The Thein one is also quite nice

[Wilco]

Conn

[hornbuilder]

In reply to Sam,
I've been at this game for 30 years, and have done a LOT of experimenting/prototyping. I have developed a certain aesthetic that I like, and this dependent configuration fits within that. Having the second valve close to the first valve, along with the valve tubing running on either side of the main body, give a good balance, feel, and blow. I also make all of my own parts, so am not constrained by having to find parts and have to fudge them to make them work. I'm actually working on a dependent TIS bass for a well known player in San Francisco at present...

[SamBTbrn]

Thanks for replying Matthew!!
It's always super interesting to hear why you do things the way you do.

Best
Sam

[hornbuilder]

Side note. In my 16 years of playing for the Australian Opera, I developed a reputation for experimenting with trombones. It reached the point where it was not uncommon for the question to be asked "So, what did you bring in to try out tonight?"

[MStarke]

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.

Dependent horns are ok as long as you're a new bass player or never have an urge to use the second lever by itself. As soon as you want to use it, you can't go back. It's ok, there's no shame in avoiding the second lever by itself. Lots of people made a career on dependent bass. So what? You play a few more 5th positions.

In my opinion both of these paragraphs don't make sense.

a) People ask at least as much for old Conn 62h and similar setups as well as e g modern Greenhoe, M and W etc dependent setups

b) I have played independent for quite some years, but went back to primarily playing dependent today. all the dependent horns I owned in the past and today had something I preferred over the independent ones. And that minor loss of flexibility is not a real issue at least for me. And as I am certainly not the best reference, think about Bill Reichenbach, John Rojak, Phil Teele, Dave Taylor and many more who play or played dependent for the larger part of their careers

Reg design of dependent horns. The actual builders certainly know best. I think it's generally good to have the second valve relatively close to the first. This may improve balance and typically allows for shorter linkage.

[Burgerbob]

In my opinion both of these paragraphs don't make sense.

a) People ask at least as much for old Conn 62h and similar setups as well as e g modern Greenhoe, M and W etc dependent setups

b) I have played independent for quite some years, but went back to primarily playing dependent today. all the dependent horns I owned in the past and today had something I preferred over the independent ones. And that minor loss of flexibility is not a real issue at least for me. And as I am certainly not the best reference, think about Bill Reichenbach, John Rojak, Phil Teele, Dave Taylor and many more who play or played dependent for the larger part of their careers

a) I don't think this is true. The big makers (Edwards and Shires) have cut the dependent models from their lineups entirely. I think if we asked Matt, a vast majority of his valve builds would be independent. The only reason Conn and Bach still have them at all is because schools buy them (probably on accident at this point).

b) All of those, for lack of better words, are older players. Retired, working, deceased, and working is not exactly a glowing recommendation for dependent. I don't think we can diminish their contribution to bass trombonedom, but we can also recognize that they probably grew up with dependent and never changed.

You can like dependent all you want, but the evidence is that it's largely obsolete.

[Wilco]

Angus butt still playing on a dep?

[SamBTbrn]

Angus butt still playing on a dep?

Yep, most recently with the Berlin Phil.

[MStarke]

In my opinion both of these paragraphs don't make sense.

a) People ask at least as much for old Conn 62h and similar setups as well as e g modern Greenhoe, M and W etc dependent setups

b) I have played independent for quite some years, but went back to primarily playing dependent today. all the dependent horns I owned in the past and today had something I preferred over the independent ones. And that minor loss of flexibility is not a real issue at least for me. And as I am certainly not the best reference, think about Bill Reichenbach, John Rojak, Phil Teele, Dave Taylor and many more who play or played dependent for the larger part of their careers

a) I don't think this is true. The big makers (Edwards and Shires) have cut the dependent models from their lineups entirely. I think if we asked Matt, a vast majority of his valve builds would be independent. The only reason Conn and Bach still have them at all is because schools buy them (probably on accident at this point).

b) All of those, for lack of better words, are older players. Retired, working, deceased, and working is not exactly a glowing recommendation for dependent. I don't think we can diminish their contribution to bass trombonedom, but we can also recognize that they probably grew up with dependent and never changed.

You can like dependent all you want, but the evidence is that it's largely obsolete.

Aidan, sorry, I wasn't totally clear.

a) referred to the other statement that more or less the only dependent in demand was the King which is not true.

b) I agree with you that there are not many examples of younger players. but still these guys showed that practically everything can be played on a dependent horn and it's not a substantial limitation. I am just against the original statement that more or less said dependents are for new bass players only.

[Burgerbob]

I'd say it's more like "professionals do not choose dependent horns in the modern day, almost as a rule."

I say this as someone that learned on dependent and has owned several great dependent horns.

[harrisonreed]

Dependent horns are great for doublers like me. I don't use bass enough to worry about using the rotors independently. And if it gets the second valve mostly out of the way, great.

[Finetales]

There were good reasons to choose a dependent when the valves were bad, but now that modern valves are great, IMO there is not really a good reason to choose dependent unless the D valve is removable like on the Yamaha 822. And even then, that's a very specific use case.

The only real thing you can't do on an indy that you can do on a deepy (I decided just now that "deepy" is my new shorthand for dependent, because it's cute) is to pre-load the D valve, and that's not really something worth losing the utility of the G/Gb valve for. Otherwise you can just play an indy like a deepy if you don't care to use the 2nd valve alone, but you still have the Gb valve available for when you absolutely need it - e.g. the slow, exposed Gb to Eb gliss in Frank Ticheli's Angels in the Architecture.

Anyway, back to the original purpose of the thread: I think dependent offset Hagmanns are not only the best-looking dependent design, but the best-looking trombones there are. They are gorgeous! Almost makes me wish I played on dependents so I could have one of those and get to look at it every day. But maybe if the thumb valve was Gb instead of F...

[CBlair]

It seems that many dependent basses, new and refurbished, have split triggers. Talking with a friend from high school who switched to bass in college, she later developed wrist/hand issues with the second valve lever and ending up quitting altogether.
Is that much of a thing?

Much contemporary writing appears designed to challenge bass trombonists more and more. It's amazing what can be done, altho well-played technically challenging material does not necessarily translate into enjoyable, listenable music to my ears.

I just got my Elkhart Conn 73H serviced and it works as well as ever. The set-up makes sense to my brain. It's more than adequate for my purposes and the repertoire I play. My thumb is up to the double duty task. So I realize, tho not professional by a long shot, I am in that older group and probably too set to change.

Having said that, if I were starting over, or had infinite resources today, I would buy a shiny new independent because they look cool, and that should not be underestimated for how it inspires one's playing.
A retro look can work pretty well, too.
CBlair

[JohnL]

It seems that many dependent basses, new and refurbished, have split triggers. Talking with a friend from high school who switched to bass in college, she later developed wrist/hand issues with the second valve lever and ending up quitting altogether.
Is that much of a thing?

Yup, it is. Hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder - you name it. That's why there are straps, bullet braces, rest bars and whatnot.

[LIBrassCo]

I'd say it's more like "professionals do not choose dependent horns in the modern day, almost as a rule."

I say this as someone that learned on dependent and has owned several great dependent horns.

To say you and I see very different things in the trombone world (not just this) is likely an understatement. However, while it's very obvious independent is vastly preferred, personally I have had the number of requests for dependent horns increase quite a bit over the last few years. This is also verified by any time I list one of my personal used horns that are not only dependent, but F/Eb dependent, they sell within a day or two. This is as a premium price as well.

Moral of the story, the "Ass for every seat" principle is going strong, even in the trombone world.

[Burgerbob]

I'll bet a significant portion of those players are either older or can't get their dependent horn from an existing boutique (because they stopped making them).

[Kbiggs]

Slightly off topic: I’m an independent player, but I’ve played a couple of dependent horns, some for several months, and others play-tested. If I had more patience (and money), I would buy one.

To me, the primary advantage of dependent over independent is the difference in sound and response. I think it’s easier to get a consistent, stable sound with a dependent horn because you have about 3” of tapered tubing at the distal end of the neckpipe. On indy horns, that taper is replaced by the second valve. That taper in that spot makes the difference, I believe.

Why and how that area of taper is so critical is a question for the makers. I don’t suppose anyone here is willing to share their recipe for the secret sauce of neckpipe tapers…?

[LIBrassCo]

I'll bet a significant portion of those players are either older or can't get their dependent horn from an existing boutique (because they stopped making them).

Some are older, some are in their 20's. There's a lot of interest among younger players (albeit interest doesn't entirely translate to sales).

[Matt K]

Slightly off topic: I’m an independent player, but I’ve played a couple of dependent horns, some for several months, and others play-tested. If I had more patience (and money), I would buy one.

To me, the primary advantage of dependent over independent is the difference in sound and response. I think it’s easier to get a consistent, stable sound with a dependent horn because you have about 3” of tapered tubing at the distal end of the neckpipe. On indy horns, that taper is replaced by the second valve. That taper in that spot makes the difference, I believe.

Why and how that area of taper is so critical is a question for the makers. I don’t suppose anyone here is willing to share their recipe for the secret sauce of neckpipe tapers…?

I was going to comment something along these lines. Consider that the crook is around the same span and the difference of material even with the same bore size is considered important by anyone even remotely sensitive to equipment differences.

It's not enough of a difference that I'm going to give up my indy valve, but I'm also not a pro. If I were, there's a decent chance I'd probably have one as my default and rule it out if I was going to be using the 2nd valve independently. There is a ton of rep that really doesn't require a 2nd valve. Like, almost all of the traditional orchestral rep can easily be done with a dependent valve.

[MrHCinDE]

In terms of sound my Holton TR-180 with its side-by-side valves is great, but the ergonomics could be better, despite the modernized trigger setup (similar linkages to the Shires earlier in this thread). If I played more bass I’d be looking out for a different valve setup so as much as I love the horn in general, I can‘t say the Holton has a great valve section design, neither did the Yanaha 612Rii I had before it. The valves themselves were mechanically excellent on the Yamaha but still was a bit too much mass applying torque away from the hand brace I think. The Reynolds Contempora before that was also uncomfortable, I‘m lucky I didn‘t damage my wrist with that one, though it was a lot of fun to play.

I like the sound of the M&W setup if I had unlimited funds.

[Thrawn22]

I'll bet a significant portion of those players are either older or can't get their dependent horn from an existing boutique (because they stopped making them).

Some are older, some are in their 20's. There's a lot of interest among younger players (albeit interest doesn't entirely translate to sales).

Can't argue with a burger since it's always right.

[Burgerbob]

Some are older, some are in their 20's. There's a lot of interest among younger players (albeit interest doesn't entirely translate to sales).

Can't argue with a burger since it's always right.

[Elow]

I don’t know a single player my age (college) using a dependent bass… I loved the Greenhoe version of the 62H I played at ITF. I wouldn’t use it at all, the rep I play has been composed with F/Gb independent setup in mind. I just recorded a piece for a competition, mordents all throughout the first and third movements. Unplayable with a dependent setup. I will link the video to this once results are out if this topic is still active. I used my second valve for most the mordents.

[LIBrassCo]

I don’t know a single player my age (college) using a dependent bass… I loved the Greenhoe version of the 62H I played at ITF. I wouldn’t use it at all, the rep I play has been composed with F/Gb independent setup in mind. I just recorded a piece for a competition, mordents all throughout the first and third movements. Unplayable with a dependent setup. I will link the video to this once results are out if this topic is still active. I used my second valve for most the mordents.

I'd love to see the piece, yet to run into something that is truly unplayable.

[ZacharyThornton]

This is such an old, boring topic. Luckily, the consumers have answered the question. And in capitalism, they make the decisions.

[GGJazz]

Hi all.

Backing to the OP , I find the M&W dependent rotors the best among the horns showed above .It is a marvellous bass trombone !

About the dependent /independent choice , I personally am playing a dependent horn ( King Duo Gravis).
I started with a single valve bass , a Olds George Roberts model . Then I moved to an independent one , a King 8B . I worked deeply on the technics you can develop with two independent valves ; and I have to say that one can play things that on a dependent horn results near impossible to perform .

Anyway , I think that on the "real life" , you will play such difficult things just few times , unless you are a full - time soloist of classical or contemporary music .

I am a pro , playing Jazz , both in Big Band and in 4et/5et as soloist , etc , so I find a dependent horn perfect for what I have to perform . It' s a bit challenging sometimes , but also with a dependent horn you can play very tricky passages.

I find the dependent horn more open , responsive , and more trombone- like sounding .
Of course , I still have my independent horn , if some situations would request it .

Regards
Giancarlo

[SamBTbrn]

Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before... But more about valve placement, distance between valves, wrap design and bore sizes etc. what effect do they have and which is the best design for optimal playing.

[Tooloud]

Over the years I owned and played three double valve dependent bass trombones:

Yamaha 612 R: side by side valve design, split triggers: Long ago, memory may decieve me, but I do not remember
anything negative or obtrusive on this trombone. Worked as it was supposed to do. The side by side design caused no change in sound once the valve were engaged. Weight distribution was no issue since the instrument was light.

Bach LT 50 B2 L: A real dog! Terrible weight distribution, caused a lot of pain in the wrist, so that i had to support my left wrist with an orthopedic strap. The sound was not convincing at all, but this may have been due to problems of holding this thing up. Had to go rather quickly because it had other mechanical issues that had nothing to do with the setup as such. The rather small valves required very careful embouchure work to iron out the sound changing from open horn to valves no matter if one or two valves were used.

XO 1242 RL: My horn since 2016. I was at the dealership for testing an other bass, went home with the XO because the sound blew me away - the one I went there for was an independent setup - I think Yamaha IIRC, could just not compete. The XO is a clone of the Conn 62H, just mechanically improved with larger valves and larger overall bore. Of course I have to work to get the sound with an without valves close to one another, but no real issue. The double valve tones are just great: I am practising for the "Ring" (standing in - yeehaa!), "Rheingold" coming up with a lot of double valve and pedal notes an the 62H design works fine.
But: The handling is a problem. The instrument is heavy, very heavy. As soon as I had bought it I had both a thumb rest and a "Handrückenstütze" - I don't know the english word - installed. Due to the design the second valve is rather far away form the neck causing a lot of weight dragging the instrument to the left an down. But I think the sound depends on the massive weight, too. So I accept this issue.
If I can manage a day off I want to try a used version of this model but as an independent Thayer setup. Played this some years ago at a shop for just some minutes and the impression was like holding a dinosaur on the shoulder while blowing it up. But I like the idea of having two versions of the same instrument with just a different valve setup - offset rotors vs. independent Thayers.

[harrisonreed]

Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before... But more about valve placement, distance between valves, wrap design and bore sizes etc. what effect do they have and which is the best design for optimal playing.

I think the program is that people with a strong idea about this will mostly all be on indie setups.

For my money the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis (with split triggers) are the best.

[SamBTbrn]

Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before... But more about valve placement, distance between valves, wrap design and bore sizes etc. what effect do they have and which is the best design for optimal playing. NJ

I think the program is that people with a strong idea about this will mostly all be on indie setups.

For my money the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis (with split triggers) are the best.

And why the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis? What makes them the best in your opinion?

[Kbiggs]

Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before...

Apologies. Didn’t mean to derail the thread.

Does adding the valve further along the F bend/crook like LIBrass’s or the Hagmann independent setups make a difference? What about wraps that place the crook assemblies on different sides of the bell, like many indy wraps? (I’m sure someone will chime in to say, “It depends on what you’re used to playing!”)

[harrisonreed]

I think the program is that people with a strong idea about this will mostly all be on indie setups.

For my money the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis (with split triggers) are the best.

And why the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis? What makes them the best in your opinion?

Well, I really like Edwards valves, and the thing plays like a dream. The compression is just right. Add in the options with the harmonic pillars and it's a no brainer. Unfortunately I did not buy one when they were being made, and I don't think many exist ...

The King bass is it's own animal. Nothing else plays like it. You either like it or you don't, I guess.

[spencercarran]

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.

The old Elkhart 62H is pretty highly sought after as well.

[2bobone]

I think I've made my obsession with the King Duo Gravis SS very clear through many posts and I won't even address my distain for split trigger conversions, but I'd like to mention something that no one has addressed at this point. It is the useful presence of the different blow when incorporating both valves on the dependent DGSS. On many occasions I gladly used that trait to add a depth of sound that is unobtainable on the "F" valve alone. I know that having valves respond with no additional resistance or color change compared to an open horn is a sort of "Holy Grail" and is to be coveted ---- but ----- has anyone out there embraced those slight differences and incorporated them into their general playing style ?
I think KBiggs is onto something with this statement : "To me, the primary advantage of dependent over independent is the difference in sound and response. I think it’s easier to get a consistent, stable sound with a dependent horn because you have about 3” of tapered tubing at the distal end of the neckpipe. On indy horns, that taper is replaced by the second valve. That taper in that spot makes the difference, I believe."
I also alternated my DGSS with a King 8B independent and totally agree. I think a dependent setup is not a drawback but a feature to be exploited. Anybody else ?