Trying to figure out more about my 50B

[bjquinn]

Hello all,

I'm just getting back into playing trombone a bit, haven't played at all since college 20+ years ago. So I'm rusty and I've forgotten everything.

My kids have started playing, one is a junior in high school, and the other is in 8th grade. My 5th grader is starting to practice, and my wife also played trombone. I finally had to dig out my old horn and get it cleaned up and fixed up. I've got what I *think* is at least a slightly unique instrument (or maybe it's plain old standard, I have no idea at this point), so it got me wanting to know more about it.

I bought my bass trombone back in 1998 from Jim Bermann. It took some digging, but I found my old emails off of an ancient hard drive and managed to find an email exchange between us, so I know that's who I got it from. The first thing I did was see if I could look him up, and saw that unfortunately he passed away in 2019, which is sad to hear.

The trombone is a bass trombone with two independent valves. The first one is obviously the standard F attachment. The bell is removable. By this I do not mean that just the end of the bell flare screws off. I also do not mean the obvious that the entire upper mechanism detaches from the slide (duh). There are two thumb screws that attach the bell to the rest of the tubing. When I bought the trombone from Jim, he also offered two other bells, I think one was standard yellow brass, the other was rose gold colored. Stupidly, I didn't buy them from him at the time, I think he wanted some very reasonable amount at the time, but I was a poor college student. The bell I did get is silver, and at least says Bach Stradivarius 50B on it, but since the bell is replaceable, I have no idea whether that means anything. I do remember Jim telling me the horn was at least semi custom, but this is a faded memory, and I found no other emails between us with more details about the horn.

Another seemingly (to me) unique thing is that for the second, independent trigger, I think the default option is for it to drop the pitch 3 half steps by itself. That makes it a D attachment, I think? Anyway, but I can pull the tuning slide for the second trigger out and replace it with another gigantor thingy that wraps up and around and behind the rest of the tubing and now if I play a low Bb, depressing the second trigger *alone* gives me C, so that's 10 half steps. So with both triggers, I get the G that's an octave and a third below Bb. That's... a G attachment?

Anyway, here's a link to a picture of the horn if I'm allowed to link to it --

Is this actually an interesting instrument or just a slightly modified beginner horn? I have no idea.

Also, one of the things that got me wondering about all this is I'd love to find some more bells for this thing, but I don't know whether those bells would have been super custom for my specific horn or if this is a standard deal.

Any thoughts or comments would be welcome!

[BGuttman]

This is a Bach 50B professional bass trombone. As an independent we'd call it a 50B3.

The 2nd valve tuning slide is the Low C. Normally the second valve slide would be in Gb.

I'm not sure exactly what Jim did for bell mounts. It could be a Thayer pattern, a Shires pattern, or an Edwards pattern. Once you find out what hardware was used you can get additional bells fitted to your system. A bewildering variety of bells should be available.

Glad to see Jim's horn will sing again.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Perhaps you might find some leads from this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=22315

[hornbuilder]

It could be a Thayer pattern, a Shires pattern, or an Edwards pattern

It's none of those. This horn uses the wing nut/split socket type of fitting that Bach use(d). So any bell can be mounted onto the valve section, it would just need the appropriate fittings sourced and attached

[tbonesullivan]

I still see horns like that posted in the Bass Trombone appreciation group on Facebook. In that case they used bass trombone outer slide tubes to make the C attachment. I don't want to think about how much that weighs, but I guess I can see the utility of it. Was it olds who had the factory extension for the second valve that tuned it to something like Db? I can't remember.

[bjquinn]

Thanks all for the info and suggestions! Based on the info in the linked thread, I've reached out to Quinn the Eskimo (now The Mighty Quinn, I think) on the off chance that they have some of Jim's bells still, and maybe those might fit.

I was thinking about a relacquer from BAC over in Kansas City, but I'm open to suggestions along those lines as well.

What's the 2nd attachment that gives a low C by itself for? Is it for very low pedal tones? Seems an odd configuration to assist with technical passages or anything like that. I like it, and usually leave it in that configuration just for fun and the comments I get on it, but I have no idea what the purpose of it is!

[bjquinn]

It could be a Thayer pattern, a Shires pattern, or an Edwards pattern

It's none of those. This horn uses the wing nut/split socket type of fitting that Bach use(d). So any bell can be mounted onto the valve section, it would just need the appropriate fittings sourced and attached

So was this a stock configuration from Bach, or a custom job? Does this mean there are commonly bells out there that would already have the proper fittings?

[bjquinn]

I still see horns like that posted in the Bass Trombone appreciation group on Facebook. In that case they used bass trombone outer slide tubes to make the C attachment. I don't want to think about how much that weighs, but I guess I can see the utility of it. Was it olds who had the factory extension for the second valve that tuned it to something like Db? I can't remember.

It's heavy but in high school one year I marched sousaphone, and the others I marched with a bass trombone. So the weight actually doesn't bother me, which is why I left it in that configuration recently for a small church Christmas band where I played a part that I don't think ever went below the middle of the staff, so I could have played it just as well with my old Conn that doesn't even have a trigger.

[JohnL]

I still see horns like that posted in the Bass Trombone appreciation group on Facebook. In that case they used bass trombone outer slide tubes to make the C attachment. I don't want to think about how much that weighs, but I guess I can see the utility of it. Was it olds who had the factory extension for the second valve that tuned it to something like Db? I can't remember.

Olds offered an Eb-D attachment that fit their inline basses. I have one. Tried it a few times, but adds a lot of weight and greatly diminishes the utility of the second valve for me (I play a lot of second space C's with my flat-G valve).

As I understand it, the idea of an indie with an extended second valve was that you wouldn't normally use either one or the other, but seldom both at the same time. This gave you a full chromatic scale without ever needing to use both (notoriously undersize) valves at the same time, with the added potential benefit of extending the extreme low register. I think some people also liked being able to play pedal notes without playing them as pedals...

[Burgerbob]

Very cool. Looks like a horn that was converted from 50B3 (independent closed wrap) to open wrap, and someone got a D and C slide for it. Definitely a product of its time, probably an '80s instrument or at least modified then.

A professional horn but not what most people are using these days, at least with D and C slides.

[hornbuilder]

"So was this a stock configuration from Bach, or a custom job? Does this mean there are commonly bells out there that would already have the proper fittings?"

This wasn't a Bach factory option on the bass trombones. It was on some tenors, though. The bell mount hardware from the factory tenor options was used here. I don't know if they still make those parts.

[BGuttman]

Very cool. Looks like a horn that was converted from 50B3 (independent closed wrap) to open wrap, and someone got a D and C slide for it. Definitely a product of its time, probably an '80s instrument or at least modified then.

A professional horn but not what most people are using these days, at least with D and C slides.

I know of one other C attachment on a Bach 50B3. It was owned by Gordon Bowie. He liked the fact that he could play low C in 1st position and most of the pedals we associate with a straight tenor were available in a higher partial. I don't think Gordon had his custom made; it was probably an option.

[bjquinn]

Very cool. Looks like a horn that was converted from 50B3 (independent closed wrap) to open wrap, and someone got a D and C slide for it. Definitely a product of its time, probably an '80s instrument or at least modified then.

A professional horn but not what most people are using these days, at least with D and C slides.

I know of one other C attachment on a Bach 50B3. It was owned by Gordon Bowie. He liked the fact that he could play low C in 1st position and most of the pedals we associate with a straight tenor were available in a higher partial. I don't think Gordon had his custom made; it was probably an option.

So it's called a C attachment? Which would mean it's named after the note it produces on its own. Whereas the D attachment is named after the note it produces in conjunction with the first trigger?

[AtomicClock]

So it's called a C attachment? Which would mean it's named after the note it produces on its own. Whereas the D attachment is named after the note it produces in conjunction with the first trigger?

On an independent trombone like yours, the valves are always named after the note they produce alone. In its normal configuration (shorter slide), you have an F valve and a G flat valve. Used together, they make about a D in first position. (Or, if you set the tuning slide to make a true D in first position, then the Gb will only be approximate).

That's quite a dramatic photo!

[AtomicClock]

I don't think Gordon had his custom made; it was probably an option.

Here ya go:
https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... 3low-c.php

Though at $2K, I'd be tempted to ask a tech to fabricate something instead.

[bjquinn]

So it's called a C attachment? Which would mean it's named after the note it produces on its own. Whereas the D attachment is named after the note it produces in conjunction with the first trigger?

On an independent trombone like yours, the valves are always named after the note they produce alone. You have an F valve and a G flat valve. Used together, they make about a D in first position. (Or, if you set the tuning slide to make a true D in first position, then the Gb will only be approximate).

That's quite a dramatic photo!

Ah, thank you for the clarification! That was confusing me.

Yes the C attachment makes it quite large and heavy, but it's what I'm used to (or what I WAS used to in my playing days). When I pick up one of my kids' tenor trombones they seem like a little toy in comparison.

[JohnL]

[So it's called a C attachment? Which would mean it's named after the note it produces on its own. Whereas the D attachment is named after the note it produces in conjunction with the first trigger?

On an independent horn, the valves are normally referred to by the note produced when the valve is engaged by itself.
A valve that lowers the pitch a minor third would be a G valve, while a valve that lowers the pitch a major third would be a Gb valve.

On a dependent horn, the second valve is generally also referred to the note produced when the valve is engaged, but the second valve can only be engaged when the first is also engaged. Thus a second valve on a dependent horn that lowers the pitch by a major second is called an Eb valve and one that lowers the pitch a minor third is called a D valve.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

"So was this a stock configuration from Bach, or a custom job? Does this mean there are commonly bells out there that would already have the proper fittings?"

This wasn't a Bach factory option on the bass trombones. It was on some tenors, though. The bell mount hardware from the factory tenor options was used here. I don't know if they still make those parts.

Oddly enough, these NOS 42 and 36CO were just listed today.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/RpGCQpqR5h5P9kq5/?

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/BtEdX882MovkGuXb/?

[bjquinn]

My son decided to clean the horn up for me for Christmas!

You can see he's got the silver bell cleaned up already and up to the main tuning slide. Lots more work on the rest of the tubing. The slide was already pretty clean, but the rest of the horn definitely was not!

[CalgaryTbone]

In the 80's, there was a trend to try to create Bass Trombones with a more open low register and some people tried instruments with the 2nd valve in either D or C, so the player would only play with 1 valve at a time. As more open valves were designed and used on the horns straight from the factory, this option went away. The heaviness of the extra tubing, and the less "user-friendly" slide position options of a second valve in such a low key made them a less attractive option.

Jim Scott

[elmsandr]

Another minor note on the custom was of the horn, the Bach normal wing its are oriented 90 off around the socket, so probably not even the stock back parts for the detailed bits, just a custom fab there.

Neat horn, looks pretty in a normal configuration and appropriately frightening with the “monster” on the second valve.

I’d never use that slide like that, but it looks like fun.
Andy

[AtomicClock]

It looks like there might be enough room inside the gigantor slide for the F attachment to be pulled to E. Because, you know...why not.

[bjquinn]

It looks like there might be enough room inside the gigantor slide for the F attachment to be pulled to E. Because, you know...why not.

Right, and maybe I can pull the tuning slide out on the gigantor slide to get another half step there, and then reach out beyond 7th position to the very end of the slide, and then tune it down with my lips a bit and maybe I can hit a C0 or a Bb-1?

[JohnL]

Remember that as the instrument gets longer, the amount of tubing you have to add to drop the pitch a half step increases proportionately.

The main horn plus the C valve should be about 16 feet (4.9 meters) long. To lower the pitch a half step, you'd need to add ~11.4 inches (~27.4 cm) to the length of the horn.

[JMudge]

I think Ed Anderson (Deceased - Cleveland Orch, Indiana University) used a similar setup for quite a while. His might have been an original 50B3L converted to an open wrap. It definitely had a C or D slide on the second valve. There are pictures around of it including on his album, “The Occasional Clam.” I believe it’s mentioned in a past ITJ or other article too, but I’m fuzzy on that right now.

J