TromboneChat

I have a Mt. Vernon 34 that plays very well and I love the sound and feel. Unfortunately, after even playing just for a few minutes, my left shoulder becomes painful and if I don’t stop, will feel irritated for the rest of the day. This has puzzled me because I don’t have the same issue with my large bore horn or even a 72H.

I have tried the various hand supports and still can’t find comfort. This seems to be an issue of balance and even with a counter weight, the horn is nose heavy. That, combined with feeling that my thumb is stretched too far makes for a very uncomfortable hand position and seems to irritate my shoulder.

Do any of you have any experience in making a horn more comfortable?

Many thanks for any suggestions,

John

If the stretch with the thumb to the bell brace is too far, you could try the grip I use on historical instruments, which doesn't involve the bell section at all. Then if needed you can combine that grip with using leather holding strap.

The grip is akin to one of the typical ways you might hold a cigar. Top slide tube (just past the slide brace) rests in the crook between your index and middle fingers, with your index finger wrapping around the top of the tube. The three other fingers can wrap around the brace for balance, more or less firmly (and still keeping them relaxed), while the thumb touches the side of the mouthpiece also for balance on another axis. With this grip, the weight is nicely centered in the middle of your hand and aligned with your wrist and forearm, instead of resting on the joint of your outstretched thumb, which is really awful for your wrist. And the pivot point around which the instrument wants to tilt is right in the middle of your grip, instead of that pivot point being between two contact points and the tilt putting stress on your fingers and wrist.

You might, or not need, a leather strap. I use it on bass sackbut (which is very nose heavy and a lot of sideways tilt) but don't need it on Bb instruments, even the German trombones with the very large bell. If you use it, you can install it the same way as usual, but you'll probably need a longer version because your hand is much higher up with this grip and the strap has longer to go after wrapping under the bottom tube. Especially if your horn has a wide slide. I use the largest model that Leather Specialties makes (which I think is not even on their website).

If the description above is hard to figure out the first time, try this: hold your trombone to your lips using your right hand. Hold your left hand in front of your face, palm facing your chest and fingers outstretched. Insert that left hand behind the inner slide brace with your index finger going above the top tube and the other fingers between the top and bottom tube. When you can't go any further, wrap your fingers into a loose fist and rest your thumb on the side of the mouthpiece.

johntarr wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:37 am I don’t have the same issue with my large bore horn or even a 72H.
...
feeling that my thumb is stretched too far

Why not just don't wrap your thumb around the brace? Pretend it is an F-attachment horn. and hover the thumb over a phantom trigger.

Thank you for the suggestion Maximilien!

I was preparing for traveling so just gave it a cursory try and it seems to be promising. I appreciate your detailed and thorough description and will give that hand position a go when I return. After experimenting with your suggestions, I will post my impressions here.

All the best,

John

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2024 8:00 pm

johntarr wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:37 am I don’t have the same issue with my large bore horn or even a 72H.
...
feeling that my thumb is stretched too far

Why not just don't wrap your thumb around the brace? Pretend it is an F-attachment horn. and hover the thumb over a phantom trigger.

I have tried that and can’t quite get the horn to grip the flesh over the first thumb joint. I think that is partly because the ridges on the slide nut are worn smooth.

Additionally, I have tried using an Axe Handle Brace where a trigger would be. This helps some with the thumb but forces the slide nut to rest on my hand in an uncomfortable manner. It also doesn’t address the nose heavy issue. Maximilien’s way shifts the horn a bit back, which may help with the balance problem.

Thanks for the suggestion,

John

Have you tried using a Calder Pips hand brace for your 34? They make hand braces for straight horns too.

It’s the exact same style of brace as the ones used for horns with triggers except it’s at a little bit of an angle. You still need to stretch your thumb to be around the brace but now instead of the weight of the horn being on the crook of your thumb it spreads the weight more evenly throughout your hand.

I have small hands and I’ve found the Calder Pips hand braces to be helpful when playing my straight R3 and R4.

I also recommend leather straps like the Leather Specialties straps. I found them very helpful when I was playing a straight Bach 42 and a 6h. I’d still be using the Leather Specialties straps but unfortunately they don’t work on my Raths.

Sounds like the problem lies more with the balance than the grip. Have you tried adding more mass to the counterweight? You can experiment with fishing sinkers and painter's tape to start with.

Of course, that makes the horn heavier overall, which can also lead to ergonomic issues, but it's still worth a try.

As a point of reference, the Bach counterweight that Hickeys sells weighs .40 pound (6.4 ounces).

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:26 am Have you tried using a Calder Pips hand brace for your 34? They make hand braces for straight horns too.

It’s the exact same style of brace as the ones used for horns with triggers except it’s at a little bit of an angle. You still need to stretch your thumb to be around the brace but now instead of the weight of the horn being on the crook of your thumb it spreads the weight more evenly throughout your hand.

I have small hands and I’ve found the Calder Pips hand braces to be helpful when playing my straight R3 and R4.

I also recommend leather straps like the Leather Specialties straps. I found them very helpful when I was playing a straight Bach 42 and a 6h. I’d still be using the Leather Specialties straps but unfortunately they don’t work on my Raths.

I purchased two of the Calder grips, one for my tenor and one for the bass. I could never get them to fit my hand and horn at the same time. I didn’t know he sold a version for straight trombone. I have also tried the strap, and while that’s a step in the right direction, it still doesn’t quite work.

I’m reminded of a story about a princess and a pea.

Thanks for your suggestions,

John

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:05 am Sounds like the problem lies more with the balance than the grip. Have you tried adding more mass to the counterweight? You can experiment with fishing sinkers and painter's tape to start with.

Of course, that makes the horn heavier overall, which can also lead to ergonomic issues, but it's still worth a try.

As a point of reference, the Bach counterweight that Hickeys sells weighs .40 pound (6.4 ounces).

I do have a counter weight and may try adding to it. The thumb issue is still a problem. I also have an Urbie Green model, which is much lighter and still somewhat nose heavy. It took me a while to get used to the thumb stretch, but if I’m careful, I can manage it.

Thanks for chiming in,

John

I came up with this issue on the 36H, which is admittedly an alto so maybe slightly different ergonomics, but I found that moving my wrist so that most of the weight was resting on the heel of my palm made it easy to hold.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 3:50 am

Nice idea. Won't work with triggers, but I'll give it a try with my 8h, which is sometimes hard to hold.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2024 9:37 am

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 3:50 am

Nice idea. Won't work with triggers, but I'll give it a try with my 8h, which is sometimes hard to hold.

Yeah no only works with straight horns, or those where the trigger is a leather strap with a string. It works great for instruments where the bell stay is too far back to reach with the thumb or not practical or comfortable to hold, or when the tenon/receiver joint is prone to slip.

johntarr wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2024 7:40 amI do have a counter weight and may try adding to it. The thumb issue is still a problem.

Fixing the balance will not, in and of itself, mitigate the thumb reach issue.
BUT
There are grip positions that will work on a well-balanced instrument that would not work on one that is significantly nose-heavy.

Try adding the counterweight similar to a “satellite” weight or similar, that is, put something on to extend to the other axis to try and take some torque off the hand, too. I often use an old Getzen weight that you can clamp on at a different orientation to fix left right balance and that helps a lot more than you would think.

I also have a 34 and don’t really have any of the issues you note, I only really notice when I forget to have a counter weight on at all.

Cheers,
Andy

After quite a bit of trial and error (mostly error), I think I’ve found a workable solution. Getting the balance sorted out, as JohnL wrote was the most important first step. After adding heavy washers to the existing counter weight, I ordered an Instrument Innovations Slide Balancer. This works very well with the two weights attached to the tuning slid brace and angled away from the bell.

With the balance sorted out, I can use Maximilien’s “grip”, or a strap. Now that the balance is better, I can use the strap in such a way that my thumb is close to the bell brace. Switching between those two positions is also beneficial for distributing the work to different parts of my hand.

Thank you all for your suggestions,

John