TromboneChat

i have long thought that this place could better utilize its potential by talking more about the elements of music and how the trombone can function in a musical environment.  i don't have any grand agenda about topics that should be discussed, but only wish that more discussions on this forum pointed towards music as their end. 

i find that many, if not most, of the discussions center around physical issues.  sometimes that is a mouthpiece or slide lubricant or metal alloys.  sometimes we discuss our chops and ways to play higher or faster.  those discussions seem to have a long life.  i believe there is a thread about 1.5G pieces that has survived for months.  but, musical discussions don't seem to fare as well.  i'm not sure if it's because those that have strong musical opinions intimidate those who identify as novices or if it's due to the presence of too much venom when differences of opinion materialize.  i think we'd all benefit from more musical discussion.

in a practical sense, i believe that we should be more than trombonists.  we should primarily be musicians.  we should use the trombone as a tool to make music.  we all heard someone doing this when we were young and it caught our attention...it ignited a passion.  that passion has fueled our pursuits to this point.  and here we are in this virtual space discussing our passion, yet the intangible fuel for it often goes unmentioned. music.

here is a recent post that articulates my thoughts: http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,51348.msg725268.html#msg725268

in my teaching, i have had much more success with my students when i put them in a musical environment and let them find problems to solve.  that may be playing duets or having a bone sectional.  when a technical impedance presents itself, it is a musical problem to solve.  the solution is necessary to remove the road block that is preventing us from making music.  our focus is on the musical statement...the meaning of the words and not only how well we pronounce them...not only our diction, but also sincere meaning.  when we approach technical exercises out of the context of music, they can become addictive ego games that are without the depth and purpose of music-making.  they can create the illusion of doing something short of actually doing what it is that we wish to do....make music. 

this topic is my attempt to spur more musical discussions.  should these kinds of discussion actually begin to occur, whether in this topic or another, i hope that forumites will be able to accept and respect alternative musical views whether or not they agree. 

it's so easy to be destructive.  it's so easy to be negative.  it's so easy to dismiss another's opinion without consideration of their perspective.  can we unite in our common passion?  it's addictive ego gratification to simply unite based upon our common enemies, whether music or people or ideas.  my goal is to understand more.  i don't think i'm alone.  that may be understanding how wayne shorter thinks of a major7(#5) chord or how brahms orchestrated or why jj speaks to one person while frank speaks to another or how to better use my airstream when playing a long phrase. 

we're such a niche.  here we have a hub to discuss our place on the musical landscape, yet we frequently define ourselves as individuals here based on how hip we think we are in comparison to others.  we could be helping one another better and more often.  i'm not completely cynical as i realize there are some very positive voices that contribute here.  often, it seems that the negative voices prevail and difficult/challenging discussions either become destructive or never get started. 

just my thoughts.  i use a trombone to make music.  i love my instrument, but it is simply a tool to communicate.  what am i trying to communicate?  what are we trying to communicate?  what are we trying to achieve in our relationship with our instrument and with music?  this forum is a tool, too.  how can we use it better?  our egos are tools, too?  how can we use them better? 

much of this has been said before by me and others, but it appears we could still do better.  i hope there are some other dreamers out there who will be able to point us in a positive direction.  i'm sure many of you have better ideas than me and would be better equipped to articulate your thoughts with the written word.  c'mon dreamers and reveal yourselves and your thoughts.  we can always use more positive energy and more disciplined communication. 

DG

DG, you are more eloquent than I, but here are some nuts and bolts about what I feel the trombone does and where the trombone fits...

Alto trombone... doubles the alto voice in classic lit and imitates that sound in romantic lit

Small bore tenor...brash, still a female voice, but she smokes 3 packs a day...

Large bore tenor... male tenor voice, big, powerful, orchestral

Bass trombone...bass voice, bigger, more powerful...softer and subtler

Trombone can work well with any instruments, but guitar is a standout.

The trombone adds core, breadth, tonality, and edge.

The trombone can be a chameleon blending with anyone, but stands alone also.

The word that sums the character of trombone to me is "Noble".

Thanks for bringing up this topic.  I don't really have anything to offer at this time but I do have a question.  This afternoon I was asked if I'd be interested in playing trombone in the Mozart Requiem.  I'm interested but I'm afraid I don't know the music at all and the piece is not in any of my excerpt books and, after googling, I couldn't find the three parts for trombone to see if I could play any of them.  I've heard that the trombone part is very difficult to play.  Can somebody explain to me why it's difficult?  If a lot of finesse is required I'll probably decline.  I'm still trying to get back into shape and very soft, subtle playing from me is not a real option.  (And, yes, I practice lip flexibility and soft long tones everyday.)  Any thoughts on this piece would be great appreciated.

Aloha,
Richard

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on May 10, 2010, 11:47PMThanks for bringing up this topic.  I don't really have anything to offer at this time but I do have a question.  This afternoon I was asked if I'd be interested in playing trombone in the Mozart Requiem.  I'm interested but I'm afraid I don't know the music at all and the piece is not in any of my excerpt books and, after googling, I couldn't find the three parts for trombone to see if I could play any of them.  I've heard that the trombone part is very difficult to play.  Can somebody explain to me why it's difficult?  If a lot of finesse is required I'll probably decline.  I'm still trying to get back into shape and very soft, subtle playing from me is not a real option.  (And, yes, I practice lip flexibility and soft long tones everyday.)  Any thoughts on this piece would be great appreciated.

Aloha,
Richard

The difficulty of the Requiem depends largely on the edition. Some editions have you doubling the choral parts, and the long melisma can require some finesse to keep the appropriate timber and still play sotto voce. Nothing in the Requiem is incredibly difficult and, in my opinion, is one of the most rewarding and transcendental pieces of music you will ever have the opportunity to play. Give it a go!

Richard, your question maybe belong to another tread. I admire that you have a sober view on your self and what you can do or not do.   There are many people that don't have that skill. They don't have a clue and some are here in the forum. I admire that skill you have. Many should learn from you.

About Mozart I only know the Bass part. Alto on 1st(hard maybe) and 2nd have a solo/duet with the bass voice soloist. There are lot of notes in all parts. But I cant exactly explain so much about it. The problem is maybe to support/balance with the choir, orchestra and the 4 soloists.

Wait and see if some other who knows it well chime in or listen a recording.

Leif

go where the music tells you...

music is not a business, but to do it for a living you have to treat it as such... never ever confuse this with what the music is telling you.

the music tells me i don't know anything - but it also tells me that i'll never learn without shedding the fear to screw up. 

when i play/write music, there are two voices in my head.  one telling me how i think it should go and another telling me how i should play it.  it's hard knowing which to listen to.  i have issues with all aspects of my approach to music which need to be addressed - and the only way they'll be addressed is by putting myself in situations where i have a bit of apprehension. 

don't fear the music - it is as natural as breath and life.

for some it is breath and life. 

breathe and live.

Quote from: D Gibson on May 10, 2010, 11:46AM...when a technical impedance presents itself, it is a musical problem to solve.  the solution is necessary to remove the road block that is preventing us from making music.  our focus is on the musical statement...the meaning of the words and not only how well we pronounce them...not only our diction, but also sincere meaning.  when we approach technical exercises out of the context of music, they can become addictive ego games that are without the depth and purpose of music-making.  they can create the illusion of doing something short of actually doing what it is that we wish to do....make music.A ha! Exactlyexactlyexactly.  John Faieta turned me on to thinking this way in my practice sessions---to think of my technical exercises in context.  I have a nasty habit of stopping whenever I play anything wrong.  In doing this, I'd break up etudes so that everything was without context, let alone a musical shape.  When I put everything together, I would be happy with all the right notes and some very superficial dynamic effects.  Without musical intent, my mental singer turned on, I'm simply a robot.  A poorly engineered one, at that.  But when playing something with musical intent, even if I don't play all the right notes...  I don't know, the horn just seems to come to life.  No, I come to life.

Playing the trombone is such a difficult beast, it is tough to navigate that physical interface with the horn.  I feel as though people bring their frustrations to the forums: I can't do this, I can't do that, help!

Making music is not a frustrating pursuit, for me at least, until the technique gets in the way.  I have the music in my head, whereas I don't know everything about playing the trombone and getting it to do what I want physically.  Maybe that's why more technique, range, flexibility, speed, questions are asked...

maybe a positive direction for discussion would to be to identify those musical problems and how we define them.  then solutions could be discussed in context.  that could be productive. 

the difficulty is in explaining the intangible.  but, i think of it like acting.  one actor may read their lines and inspire intense emotion, while another sounds like they're reading a sheet of paper.  how does one achieve sincerity? 

it's the details.  so, we realize that we have to taper a note while holding it to its full value and all sorts of technical issues appear.  at that point, we create 3 individual exercises to help us achieve balance so we can simply think about how we are to deliver our lines.  we're actors.

Quote from: D Gibson on May 11, 2010, 11:03AMit's the details.  so, we realize that we have to taper a note while holding it to its full value and all sorts of technical issues appear.  at that point, we create 3 individual exercises to help us achieve balance so we can simply think about how we are to deliver our lines.  we're actors.
Again, exactlyexactlyexactly.

When very involved in the making of music--for instance, the tapering of a long note--I will lose the sound of the trombone.  I'll gradually begin to sound like a didgeridoo.

Balance.  I need to balance the technical necessities with the musical necessities, if that makes sense.  I need to do both simultaneously.

Any and all advice welcome. 

from a technical aspect, i always think of how i'd want to sound singing a particular exercise or piece.  i think of singers i like - Frank Sinatra or Luis Cordoba for instance.  it usually helps me anyway to have that sort of conception in my head - the body usually figures it out.

what kinds of mind/concept sort of things do you do?  I know this is going to eventually tread down that "inner game of _________" path - a path i like treading.  I think most problems are conceptual anyway.  Honesty - musical honesty anyway - tends to make one better, i think.

DG,

I understand completely about the trombonist versus musician thing.  However for most of us, the only way we can truly come close to expressing ourselves is through the instrument, and there lies the rub.  I recently took up classical guitar, an instrument that is polyphonic and by its nature, a solo instrument.  I am happy to have found another outlet.  It can be frustrating to express ones musical self by one instrument alone - for the most part!

George

In the end we make funny sounds with our lips and blow air down a metal pipe. I always say to my students 'blow in the small end and sound will come out the big end' that's all trombone is, making the sound that comes out the big end one that people, including yourself, want to hear is another thing entirely.
It is an odd thing, half the time we have to play for musicians who are looking at everything with a strong understanding of musical language and how things work, this is why I like playing things slightly outside of the musical norm, cage, stockhausen, xenakis for recitals and such to try and convey meaning in a language they don't grasp as well.
The other half of our audience have little to no knowledge of what we do, sure they may know how a trombone makes sound but really don't care, they are there to enjoy themselves, they are paying (hopefully) to be taken on a journey through sound, we have to make this sound into an emotional journey (whether we add a story to this or have absolute music is another debate entirelly) but in the end we have to take a language that half our audience don't understand  and make them leave with an image.
This is something in solo playing I always aim for but have only walked off stage maybe 3 or 4 times saying that I communicated exactly what I wanted to the audience though through personal experience they are going to take their own slant on this.

Quote from: gbedinger on May 11, 2010, 05:08PMDG,

I understand completely about the trombonist versus musician thing.  However for most of us, the only way we can truly come close to expressing ourselves is through the instrument, and there lies the rub.  I recently took up classical guitar, an instrument that is polyphonic and by its nature, a solo instrument.  I am happy to have found another outlet.  It can be frustrating to express ones musical self by one instrument alone - for the most part!

George

i understand that it can be difficult to remain committed to musical goals as a solitary performer.  but, it's a worthy endeavor to do so. 

music is communication, which implies that there is more than one person involved.  i think one of the reasons that there is such a healthy "rehearsal band" scene in nyc is the desire of musicians to communicate and be understood...in fact, isn't that a human desire?  although, it's much easier to judge our individual success by technical parameters while practicing, it's not impossible to maintain a focus on music.  i find this to be one of the inherent advantages of being a jazz musician.  improvisation is a natural part of the music.  what is improvisation other than spontaneous composition?  composing is a formal way to edit and organize one's thoughts for presentation to another.  so, practicing improvisation alone is an exercise in organizing my thoughts about a tune in the same way that i organize my thoughts about any topic.  i study the tune at the piano and understand the harmony.  then i try to find rivers of thought to connect chords, melodies and phrases...i try and see how many ways i can think about the tune/topic.  then, i begin to practice articulating those thoughts melodically...essentially the same thing as talking to myself in the mirror.  i am honing my communication skills....my music skills. 

if i have been successful at explaining my approach, perhaps someone else could describe their approach to remaining centered musically in the absence of audience and other musicians. 

also...to remain focused on music, it may be helpful to create an audience for one of your Bach cello suites or Rochut etudes.  that could be a family member, a friend, a neighbor or a pet.  communicate with someone who only hears music, instead of being distracted by their trombone-istic agenda. 

dg

Quote from: john sandhagen on May 10, 2010, 07:48PMDG, you are more eloquent than I, but here are some nuts and bolts about what I feel the trombone does and where the trombone fits...

Alto trombone... doubles the alto voice in classic lit and imitates that sound in romantic lit

Small bore tenor...brash, still a female voice, but she smokes 3 packs a day...

Large bore tenor... male tenor voice, big, powerful, orchestral

Bass trombone...bass voice, bigger, more powerful...softer and subtler

Trombone can work well with any instruments, but guitar is a standout.

The trombone adds core, breadth, tonality, and edge.

The trombone can be a chameleon blending with anyone, but stands alone also.

The word that sums the character of trombone to me is "Noble".






i really like the idea of using personification.  it gives life to our idea of the instrument...it gives a voice, a persona to our instrument.  now, we can think of that voice like a character in a play.  in considering how to deliver a line, you must also consider how your character is interacting with the other characters.  we must see the big picture...the over-arching goal of a scene, or of the entire work. 

how does the composer view our character? 

interestingly, i have in my own practice been trying to approach playing more like talking through the horn.  sometimes, i actually put the horn up to my chops and talk through the horn.  then i follow-up by playing something that rhythmically mirrors what i have said while maintaining the same sense of balance and relaxation i had when simply talking....with no extra tension.  then, i try and apply that to music. 

We know that to play trombone successfully is a very challenging endeavor physically as well as musically.

There are so many things physically that one must master first on the trombone before one can then start exploring their musicality.

I started out on trombone in the 6th grade band, but also that same year, I took piano lessons. I later played the hammond b3 organ in rock bands after high school. On the b3 organ, all I had to do was master the correct fingerings of the different scales, and I could rip off 3 or 4 octave runs with no effort. I didn't have to think about how to create a musical 'tone', or play in tune. The b3 was such a magnificent instrument in it's day, with the leslie speakers, that it was easy to transcribe licks and runs from records, and sound like santanna all day long, with little or no effort, as compared to doing the same thing on a trombone.

I still can't rip off 4 octave runs because of the physical requirements that the trombone demands. Therefore, I find myself trying to build up my physical attributes on the trombone, knowing, that when I can put my face on the mouthpiece, and not worry about how to make the trombone sound the way I want it to, the music will already be there.

Quote from: D Gibson on May 12, 2010, 07:46AMhow does the composer view our character? 

interestingly, i have in my own practice been trying to approach playing more like talking through the horn.  sometimes, i actually put the horn up to my chops and talk through the horn.  then i follow-up by playing something that rhythmically mirrors what i have said while maintaining the same sense of balance and relaxation i had when simply talking....with no extra tension.  then, i try and apply that to music. 



Helen Merrill is THE sound to emulate on a small bore...Personification...    I haven't found a personal hero on bass yet...I hear snippets of a powerful bass singer in many choir recordings...but being choirs the one guy nailing the bottom isn't identified.  I've tried listening to Operatic basses...too forced.

I was playing a renaissance piece awhile back and it had a line I couldn't get my head around.  The director said use syllables to make it like a spoken sentence.  I said which ones?   He said it really didn't matter, just think like spoken word...And it worked.  I talked to a friend who'd studied sackbut in Germany and he said that that was a common technique.  I've talked to lots of respected jazzers who say that you HAVE TO KNOW THE WORDS so play a song convincingly.  I thinks that's a way, but, just thinking conversationally, or telling a story does the same thing.

For so much of what we are asked to do, a  really doesn't have a melodic context.  Musical, yes.  I'd play that very differently in a big band compared to an orchestra...or a rock band.  But it's a hit one way or another.

Quote from: john sandhagen on May 12, 2010, 08:47AM
I haven't found a personal hero on bass yet...I hear snippets of a powerful bass singer in many choir recordings...but being choirs the one guy nailing the bottom isn't identified.  I've tried listening to Operatic basses...too forced.


Richard Sterban.  That guy's amazing...and yes, he was the guy in the Oakridge Boys, and sang with Elvis.  He's quite amazing.

Quote from: john sandhagen on May 12, 2010, 08:47AMI was playing a renaissance piece awhile back and it had a line I couldn't get my head around.  The director said use syllables to make it like a spoken sentence.  I said which ones?   He said it really didn't matter, just think like spoken word...And it worked.  I talked to a friend who'd studied sackbut in Germany and he said that that was a common technique.  I've talked to lots of respected jazzers who say that you HAVE TO KNOW THE WORDS so play a song convincingly.  I thinks that's a way, but, just thinking conversationally, or telling a story does the same thing.
On Doug Yeo's website in the excerpts section, he writes the lyrics on the music and suggests that the player phrases with the German words: http://yeodoug.com/resources/handbook/image_files/text_files/creationexc.html

Yesterday, Gabe Langfur was telling me about his one lesson with JJ Johnson.  JJ said his ideal jazz solo was the first one on Kind of Blue (Miles Davis).  Why?  Because it never get too high, too fast, or too loud.  He said each phrase was a well simple, punctuated sentence.  "I went to the store."  Organized in paragraphs, telling a simple story.  "I bought (suchandsuch)."  I have to agree with JJ; it is a great, simple solo that is SO sophisticated in it's musicality.  Or maybe it isn't so sophisticated-it just speaks music very clearly.

Quote from: Bonefide on May 12, 2010, 09:12AMOn Doug Yeo's website in the excerpts section, he writes the lyrics on the music and suggests that the player phrases with the German words: http://yeodoug.com/resources/handbook/image_files/text_files/creationexc.html

Yesterday, Gabe Langfur was telling me about his one lesson with JJ Johnson.  JJ said his ideal jazz solo was the first one on Kind of Blue (Miles Davis).  Why?  Because it never get too high, too fast, or too loud.  He said each phrase was a well simple, punctuated sentence.  "I went to the store."  Organized in paragraphs, telling a simple story.  "I bought (suchandsuch)."  I have to agree with JJ; it is a great, simple solo that is SO sophisticated in it's musicality.  Or maybe it isn't so sophisticated-it just speaks music very clearly.

I think it's very sophisticated...and, in a word...elegant.

Quote from: Sliphorn on May 12, 2010, 09:07AMRichard Sterban.  That guy's amazing...and yes, he was the guy in the Oakridge Boys, and sang with Elvis.  He's quite amazing.

Also check out Tim Riley on YouTube.  Great, focused sound in the bass trombone register, and not forced at all, except maybe in his lowest notes (pedal Ab, G...around there ). In fact, check out the sound of some of these gospel quartets (religious message aside). Kind of like a barbershop quartet, but usually with lower bass singing. Imagine a trombone quartet sounding like that...a small bore on the top voice, etc.

Quote from: Sliphorn on May 12, 2010, 09:20AMI think it's very sophisticated...and, in a word...elegant.
Definitely one of the most musical approaches to jazz improvisation I have ever heard.  Very accessible, for those of us who don't speak the language so well... 

Yes, very elegant.

Quote from: Dan Satterwhite on May 12, 2010, 09:21AMAlso check out Tim Riley on YouTube.  Great, focused sound in the bass trombone register, and not forced at all, except maybe in his lowest notes (pedal Ab, G...around there ). In fact, check out the sound of some of these gospel quartets (religious message aside). Kind of like a barbershop quartet, but usually with lower bass singing. Imagine a trombone quartet sounding like that...a small bore on the top voice, etc.
Exactly.  It's a great sound.  And Richard Sterban does the Gospel thing, too. 

Quote from: ddickerson on May 12, 2010, 07:52AMWe know that to play trombone successfully is a very challenging endeavor physically as well as musically.

There are so many things physically that one must master first on the trombone before one can then start exploring their musicality.

I started out on trombone in the 6th grade band, but also that same year, I took piano lessons. I later played the hammond b3 organ in rock bands after high school. On the b3 organ, all I had to do was master the correct fingerings of the different scales, and I could rip off 3 or 4 octave runs with no effort. I didn't have to think about how to create a musical 'tone', or play in tune. The b3 was such a magnificent instrument in it's day, with the leslie speakers, that it was easy to transcribe licks and runs from records, and sound like santanna all day long, with little or no effort, as compared to doing the same thing on a trombone.

I still can't rip off 4 octave runs because of the physical requirements that the trombone demands. Therefore, I find myself trying to build up my physical attributes on the trombone, knowing, that when I can put my face on the mouthpiece, and not worry about how to make the trombone sound the way I want it to, the music will already be there.

one of the things i try to be aware of in performance is my own physical limit at any given time.  sometimes i can, by simply being aware, make a physical change that will extend that limit.  but, many times, that limit is fixed in that moment and i have to find a workaround solution.  that solution is intended to further the music. 

when we are in conversation, we may struggle to find the perfect word, or stutter and stammer...but as long as we are secure in the message we wish to communicate, then we can still be successful.  in fact, i have enjoyed being more particular about communicating my musical message.  the physical boundaries that the horn provides can be quite beneficial in helping me edit my message to its essence and thereby communicating more effectively. 

i love all of the thoughts about using vocalists as models.  we're all talking/singing through our horns, so it's natural to me.  unfortunately, i think there is a conceptual vacuum between playing a line on the horn and speaking a line with our voice.  many folks that i encounter have not considered the relationship between the two, but i love that everyone is discussing it here. 

What's funny (for me) is that I hate my voice and I have a hard time singing anything in a reasonable musical manner.  The trombone makes it easier for me to express those things than the voice ever could.  The (bass) trombone matches what's in my head...

Quote from: D Gibson on May 12, 2010, 07:33AMi understand that it can be difficult to remain committed to musical goals as a solitary performer.  but, it's a worthy endeavor to do so. 
I agree completely. The journey is as much a part of the experience as the goal.

Quote from: john sandhagen on May 12, 2010, 10:46AMWhat's funny (for me) is that I hate my voice and I have a hard time singing anything in a reasonable musical manner.  The trombone makes it easier for me to express those things than the voice ever could.  The (bass) trombone matches what's in my head...
yes!

Whenever I sing a phrase (how I often decide upon my musical interpretation), I am rather disgusted by my own voice.  After practicing the singing up to a point where I no longer find my singing offensive, the phrase on the horn sings.

Strange though, because I always have the same mental singer in my head.  When playing before singing the phrase, when singing the phrase, and when playing it again- I have the same mental concept.  Something in practicing the singing till it sounds acceptable helps me link the inner singer with the bass trombonist.

Singing for me is insulting to crows...

I just hear it...just like sight singing.  When I hear it I can play it.  I've already heard it before I try and sing it, singing just depresses me...  So whatever the lick, I can think of it in swing, modern jazz, orchestral, 12 tone, broadway...same notes, huge affect on the music. 

I hear the singers sound...right now.  The sound I sing isn't that so why bother?  The sound I play...is closer.

One thing I amuse myself with is playing the Omnibook in different styles.  Take any Parker solo and slow it down, add pedantic accents, square the time...and it sounds like a 20th century orchestral composition.

I'm gonna swing the Bordogni' next...

Quote from: john sandhagen on May 12, 2010, 01:46PMI just hear it...just like sight singing.  When I hear it I can play it.  I've already heard it before I try and sing it, singing just depresses me...  So whatever the lick, I can think of it in swing, modern jazz, orchestral, 12 tone, broadway...same notes, huge affect on the music. 

I hear the singers sound...right now.  The sound I sing isn't that so why bother?  The sound I play...is closer.
Maybe practicing the singing is sort of like practicing on the horn for me?  I guess the more I practice, on the horn or off, the better I will be.  Approximation time: 90% of my practicing is on the trombone, 5% buzzing, 5% singing.  That singing, however offensive, is a useful tool for me to develop my musical playing.  To each his own.

I will post more here later because I like this tread. But the music/trombone question have many aspects. One is that music is difficult to discuss and instrument(technique is easy to put words on. Very short it all have and connection and balance. But I think all agree music is the final goal. Its just not so easy to talk about. And music can be so much from a mother singing a lullaby to a large symphony orchestra performing an opera that is 3 hours long. Both can be worth listening to.

Leif

Quote from: savio on May 12, 2010, 03:15PM
Its just not so easy to talk about. And music can be so much from a mother singing a lullaby to a large symphony orchestra performing an opera that is 3 hours long. Both can be worth listening to.

Leif

Who could've said such a beautiful thing better?  You are absolutely right, Leif.  You just made my day.

I went to a very interesting talk today by Howard penny, an Australian cellist who teaches in salzburg. The topic was rhetoric in music and related the idea of speech and rhetoric, that is convincing an audience of something in music. One great idea is that he related every note to a syllable with groups of differnt syllables making words, words making sentences, paragraphs and so on with the idea of punctuation within this. He showed on the cello a variety of syllables related to diffent vocal sounds and articulation relating to them. Anyway in all, extremely interesting

I've always thought of trombone and music and the relationship between the two as having a fractal nature. Dig this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal

I try not to make a distinction between Randy the Musician, Randy the trombonist, and Randy the composer because they are all part of one conceptual stew 'n' brew that is Randy the Artist. Every slow lip slur, along with every note I write, every equipment choice I make, every design choice I make for my website, every networking interaction on the trombone forum, and everything else reflects my general aesthetic. 

In other words, when you zoom out of each piece of minutiae, ideally it would be consistent with the big, broad concepts (and the other way around). You can't know the whole without knowing each part, and you can't know each part without knowing the whole. Needless to say: it's a work in progress for me.

I feel like many of my trombone heroes, like Lawrence Brown, J.J., or Roswell Rudd (just to name three) had this going on.  Same with Duke Ellington, Morton Feldman, Samuel Beckett, Jean Luc Godard, Jackson Pollock (whose paintings were fractal in nature, I think...), and others.

Anyhoo, that's my two cents.  Time to hit the practice room!

Quote from: Dombat on May 13, 2010, 03:24AMI went to a very interesting talk today by Howard penny, an Australian cellist who teaches in salzburg. The topic was rhetoric in music and related the idea of speech and rhetoric, that is convincing an audience of something in music. One great idea is that he related every note to a syllable with groups of differnt syllables making words, words making sentences, paragraphs and so on with the idea of punctuation within this. He showed on the cello a variety of syllables related to diffent vocal sounds and articulation relating to them. Anyway in all, extremely interesting

exactly.  yes.

Quote from: rpingrey on May 13, 2010, 04:16AMI've always thought of trombone and music and the relationship between the two as having a fractal nature. Dig this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal

I try not to make a distinction between Randy the Musician, Randy the trombonist, and Randy the composer because they are all part of one conceptual stew 'n' brew that is Randy the Artist. Every slow lip slur, along with every note I write, every equipment choice I make, every design choice I make for my website, every networking interaction on the trombone forum, and everything else reflects my general aesthetic. 

In other words, when you zoom out of each piece of minutiae, ideally it would be consistent with the big, broad concepts (and the other way around). You can't know the whole without knowing each part, and you can't know each part without knowing the whole. Needless to say: it's a work in progress for me.

I feel like many of my trombone heroes, like Lawrence Brown, J.J., or Roswell Rudd (just to name three) had this going on.  Same with Duke Ellington, Morton Feldman, Samuel Beckett, Jean Luc Godard, Jackson Pollock (whose paintings were fractal in nature, I think...), and others.

Anyhoo, that's my two cents.  Time to hit the practice room!

it's possible to become so closely entwined with the instrument that it IS your voice.  playing the instrument utilizes the same cognitive stream as singing. 

i agree with you about the parts functioning in a sense of universal balance.  it takes a long time and a lot of effort to achieve that balance.  in my own practice and performance, i have been most satisfied when i have searched for that balance.  i had it for the first set last night, but not for the second.  so, second set, i tried to find it again...but at least i knew what i was looking for.  it's daunting to search for something and not have a good idea of what it is.  it's the truth.  it's when our technical agendas no longer trump our musical agendas. 

dg

Quote from: john sandhagen on May 10, 2010, 07:48PM
The word that sums the character of trombone to me is "Noble".


Noble, yes, agreed. Although Tommy & Spike may have a different perspective:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24mz_tommy-pederson_life

I dig the whole spectrum. This instrument takes all comers, musically speaking, and says, "what else you got?"

One of my teachers many years ago said several things in this area, and the ideas have stayed with me ever since: 

• [li]Don't just play the trombone.  Lots of people can do that.  Play the sound of the instrument.[/li][li] What is it about the sound of the instrument--whether it's the trombone, the marimba, the cello, whatever--that you like?  What attracts you to the sound of the trombone?  Figure it out and make it yours. 
  [/li][li]Use your imagination to discover what the composer wanted when he wrote for the trombone.  What sound or feeling did the composer intend right now, right here, at this point in the music?  Listen, imagine, discover, and then be a musician, not just a trombone player. 
  [/li]

 

I find that when I'm thinking about the music or my place or part in the music, it is easier to play.  That is, my brain is mostly focused on being in the moment as a part of the music than I am about how I have to play the music.  I am more focused on the sound and message and less concerned about the technical aspects of playing.   

Speaking about words on music. Didn't Bernstein do that a lot in a special way? Like making pictures out of phrases and music?

Leif

I have always thought of music as pretty much everything that people are.  You can take the nuts and bolts of people talking, for example - words, facial expressions, spoken tone and emphasis, body language - out of all that, you have communication.  You have a picture of another human.  You aren't just understanding the words when you talk with someone, you are understanding the expressions...the experience.  The very human, who, if you both understand each other, you can then see in yourself.

I see music like that - there are a lot of elements that can be related to how we talk to someone and the feelings we get when we interact with another person.  All the "parts" of music - the pop of the snare, how the ride pattern swings, what sort of vibrato the flute player is using, the orchestration on the shout - add up to the summation of a person's experience of life.  And that's what I believe music is, an expression of life and human's experience being on this planet (you can call that God, if you want).  I feel that looking at person's face and listening to a piece of music provide the same haunting insight into our experience as a whole. But music is just one expression of this.  Art is all an expression.  Buildings and structures are this.  Graffiti is this, ****...even peeling paint off an apartment complex in a bad part of town is this.  Everywhere exudes human-ness.  Music is just one view of this, my chosen view. 


 

Music is something you can listen or perform.  In our case with a trombone. When listen that's a personal thing. Also so when performing but there are a problem with performing. First of all you have to know the language. If you don't there will be problem to speak. And there will be problem for the listener to understand. what you say. And for us the trombone/technique/equipment is the language. So to give a message on our trombone we have to learn this. The better we learn it the more easy we can express our self.

When it comes to music and what message we want to tell its very personal.  I give some example of what I mean. If you master the trombone very well you can play Carnival in Venedig. But some just give a technical lesson for us and play the notes very well without saying anything. Its like bla, bla, bla. Impressing but still bla bla bla.
Another one can also say something that moves us. Even with this circus music.  Its about mastering the language but also to say something that is interesting.

For most of us there is a balance of everything and most of us is still on the way to both learn the trombone and listen/give a message that have something that catch our attention.

Another aspect is there is different use of music. Believe it or not but there is music made to make cows produce more milk.  There is music in shopping centers to make us use more money.   There are really some clever people out there. And money is their goal.

Leif

I am jumping into this conversation a bit late... I like many others, probably, are quite in line with Mr. Gibson in our exhaustion with the physical aspect of this forum.  So I am excited that a more esoteric (perhaps) conversation is arising here.

The Trombone to music is the same as the Saxophone to music, or the voice, or violin for that matter. A device like a vocal box or wood block that allows a new sound. The greatest of all trombone players are musicians before instrumentalists, musicians who just so happened to play trombone, musicians who could have just as easily been a wind chime player or tablist, maybe a spoken word poet even. I always use Julian Priester as an example, since he has taught me so much. So many trombonists can play what he plays, but no one can. Why is that? We have a million people trying to play like Fontana and Watrous and failing because their technique will never be that amazing. Still no one can touch the simplicity and melodic nature of Julians playing, simply because no one is Julian,like no one can touch Miles even though half the world COULD play what he played, if they were him.

   As Trombonists we fall in to a dangerous cycle-- mostly being musical outcasts from every situation we are in, (except some non-western musics, YES, Puerto Ricans love us, Salsa mi Gente!) gives us very often a serious case of short-man syndrome. We feel it is necessary to prove that we too can be a show stopping, unbelievable solo performer. (Yes you too Mr. Lindbergh, If I wasn't a trombone player I probably wouldn't care.) This only exacerbates our cause. We are slower, more cumbersome and less cohesive in many usual musical settings and peoples constant disappointment when we try to "burn" our way through bebop, start an 2,3 trombone band, or trick people into thinking trombone choirs are interesting for non-trombonists only pushes us farther from the main stream. I think Josh Roseman fights this idea well, others too. Forget the desire to be in front of the sound and use other techniques to relate your music outwardly. The general public will be more receptive.

More will come,

Sorry these Ideas are not more cohesive, they are more like questions in the form of fact.

If one approaches the playing of a musical instrument...any musical instrument, including the voice...as a sort of meditational practice, then during the times that one successfully achieves this state all of the above questions become moot.

You jes' play.

Now of course, some people who are familiar w/my books or what I have written on the web over he last 8 years or so might well respond "Yeah. Right. 265 pages of incredibly detailed information on how to play the trombone. How to hold it; how to build an embouchure; how to move the slide, etc. Web posting after web posting about the importance of equipment and how to choose it. Arguments galore with various other posters. I got yer "meditation". Right here!!!"

This sort of response would stem from an incomplete understanding of the idea of "meditation". Meditation is not necessarily a passive, sitting-and-waiting act. There are meditations in movement and even meditations in combat. (Read "The Book of Five Rings" by Musashi Miyamoto for all that you might need to know about that idea.)

I speak a great deal about internalizing the reactive motions that are involved in playing a brass instrument through the application of good time. Time, understanding and practice. But...why do this? Why make this effort? In order to excel at playing a badly written, repetitive Broadway show or deal with one's own local community orchestra?

And the answer is...yes.

In an imperfect world one can achieve a sort of perfection at times. Near-perfection, anyway. It really makes little difference whether you are playing the greatest music ever performed with the greatest orchestra ever assembled, improvising at the highest level known to mankind, dealing with a sad, ragtag-sounding bunch of semi-amateurs or waiting on line at the Post Office while he surliest clerk ever invented by a benevolent universe ignores the long line of customers in favor of meticulously cleaning his nails.

It is all a chance to work on yourself. To in some way awaken.

As are:

1-Scales

2-Arpeggios

3-Long tones

4-Equipment searches

and the long and various list of the other minutiae that must be at least to some degree mastered in order to succeed in playing a trombone at least passably well.

For those of us who get there and manage to stay there for an appreciable length of time...by hook or by crook, villains, saints and everything else in between...the results are glorious music.

Diz, Bird, Pops, Getz, Duke, Jim Knepper...you name it. Same same in the orchestral world.

All were, whether they chose to speak in these terms or not, meditators. People who managed to get up above the instrument, up above the distractions and exigencies of day-to-day life, and flat-out play. Play with nothing interfering between them and the music. No mind, no body, no soul, no nuthin'.

I call this state "right note". I have been there myself on occasion and I recognize it when I hear it.

When I meet it, too.

Now...all of the words that various musicians tend to put on their music? Like J.J. talking about never getting too high, too fast, or too loud? That is J. J.'s essence. His balance, his spirit, found through years of musical meditation. As are Diz's flights of trumpetistic and harmonic virtuosity, Bird's astoundingly intricate inside lines, Getz's inability to play an awkward note, Pops playing like Gabriel incarnate, etc.

You cannot reach that state through inductive reasoning....J.J. says this or Casals/Heifetz/Coltrane say that. That is their essence, and it is the main reason why I mostly try to avoid "teaching" music. Give the student the tolls to learn ow to lay he horn physically and wish him well. Either he does it or he doesn't. However it happens...if indeed it does...it's not going to be "my" way unless he is my clone.

In closing, a story I just received this morning from the great bass trombonist Joe Randazzo, who gave up the instrument to become a high-level chef for a number of years and is now getting back into playing again.

A number of us used to trek out to Jimmy Knepper's house in Staten Island to play duets, trios, etc. with him. He rarely said much about how we played, instead choosing to once in a while mutter something like "Try that note in 4th" during a rest. Once in a while he'd get a little...exasperated...with some of us young'uns and actually try to tell us something directly, but "exasperated"for Jim looked a lot like "nearly comatose" for most other people. He just didn't act out much.

Anyway, he had suggested to Joe that he play a b in 5th at a certain point in one of the pieces that they were playing. Joe struggled with it for a while, and then during a break said to Jim that he just couldn't seem to get the right sound on that note no matter where he put the slide.

Jim's answer?

"You have to play it with the same spirit as your other Bbs."

Spirit.

Yup.

It worked, too.

Like dat.

Later...

S.

Sabutin, 'the spirit' is exactly it.

We all have the experiences where playing beautifully and spontaneously is so effortless we wonder why we don't play that way all the time. The next time we play we feel as though we're pushing a big rock uphill. The temptation for a young player (or even an old one) is to think, 'what was I playing when I sounded so great?' Never works.

The better question is, "How was I thinking/feeling/listening' when I played well?" That may sound wishy-washy, but it's a constant part of my performance technique--consciously getting into a musical space instead of repeating, technically, something I've done before. It's damned hard, but it beats over-thinking about notes. I'm a middling player, but the best advice I can give starting players is, don't think about what you played last time, think about how you felt last time.

There are a lot of ways to listen when you play, and that's another thing to control that keeps you from obsessing over note choices.

You listen to really great players and they seem like they have taken this to another level, with many different modalities and musical personalities they can go to, or like Miles, who seemed to effortlessly invent them on the spot, even though they all seemed to have the same center.

I like the posts that compare trombone playing to singing. When I listen to Dickie Wells or Vic Dickenson or Trummy Young, they have strong musical personalities in the way they phrase, just like Nat King Cole does. Lately I've been listening to Blossom Dearie and I hear a lot in her personality that transfers well to trombone--airy and buoyant, but still very focused and accurate.

Quote from: sabutin on May 13, 2010, 06:03PM
Now...all of the words that various musicians tend to put on their music? Like J.J. talking about never getting too high, too fast, or too loud? That is J. J.'s essence. His balance, his spirit, found through years of musical meditation. As are Diz's flights of trumpetistic and harmonic virtuosity, Bird's astoundingly intricate inside lines, Getz's inability to play an awkward note, Pops plaiyng like Gabriel incarnate, etc.



And just how much of a part do you think the drugs and alcohol played in their meditation, balance and musical spirit?????

Quote from: Chris Fidler on May 14, 2010, 05:03AMAnd just how much of a part do you think the drugs and alcohol played in their meditation, balance and musical spirit?????

Getting high is an uneducated attempt to reach a meditational state, Chris. When I say "uneducated" I mean it in the following sense.

Once an interviewer asked Mohandas Gandhi what he thought of Western Civilization.

His answer? "I think that it would be a very good idea."

Like dat.

Getting high...been there, baby, bet on it...actually works on a certain level to temporarily redistribute (and to some degree even supercharge) a human being's energies through certain centers. Different drugs (and different combinations of drugs as well) affect individuals in varying ways, but basically they all are energy redistributors. If one is not taught any path but the drug route to deal with this necessity as a musician...and by "necessity" I mean that playing on the level of say Charlie Parker is simply not a "natural" thing or it would be much more common...then this is the path that a passionately committed musician will take.

I do not despise or even presume to judge those great musicians who took this route. I admire them for their courage and their commitment to the music. They were not offered much in the way of any other route...I mean, hell Chris, being black in America well into the end of he 20th Century and even right through today means that you were not offered much of anything other than what you could learn on the street, and it was black musicians who set the tone and pace for the music that followed...and they did what worked. On a day-to day basis. They were not fools or weaklings...in fact, many of them were flat-out geniuses...they simply were not offered other horizons until it was too late for many of them.

In older cultures that are involved in high level improvisation and have continued to function and evolve...like the Northern Indian traditions, for example...it is my guess that they passed through the drug route many centuries ago. They found...as we are finding several generations into our own young idiom...that it simply does not work on a long-term basis. It destroys almost all of the people who enter it by so stressing their physical systems that they literally break down. They either break down and die or break down and simply do not play as well as they had played when they first discovered the power within them through the use of drugs. For anyone of any intelligence whatsoever all it takes is a good, up-close-and-personal look at the nearly empty shells of any number of once great musicians to see the truth of this, but for most of the members of the first few pioneer generations by the time most of them realized this truth it was just too damned late for them to do much about it.

Thus, we see fewer and fewer heavy drug users in the last couple of generations of great players. Should this idiom continue to grow, eventually a meditational system will replace the ad hoc, learn-it-on-the-bandstand-and-at-the-bar system that is still to some degree at work in these idioms, and the heightened powers that are needed for really high-level plaiyng will be found in other ways.

Just exactly as is the case with the Yogic/Sufi-influenced "meditational" approaches that now pertain in Northern Indian styles.

Meanwhile...and this is the crux of my own resistance to much of he academic teaching that is now in place...we are teaching the music by trying to ignore that to which Jim Knepper referred as "the spirit" in his comment to Joe Randazzo, much as the culture itself is trying to ignore it in an attempt to become almost completely secular. Human beings are three-brained animals...mind, body and soul for want of better terms...and ignoring the science of the soul will produce as incomplete a being as will ignoring the development of mind and body.

So it goes, and we shall see just where it goes.

I was lucky. Dumb lucky. I ran into a couple of great teachers who hipped me to this and a whole lot more before I went totally off the rails. But "luck" is not enough in the development of either a great idiom or its necessary corollary, a great culture in which it can develop.

Like I said...we shall see. Soon enough. This incomplete culture...this lacking "Western Civilization" to which Gandhi referred...is under attack from other partially developed cultures at the moment. Partially developed in other ways. Perhaps a more complete system will develop out of this clash, or perhaps the whole house of cards will once again come tumbling down. It's happened before in the history of mankind. Often. Bet on that as well. We shall see soon enough.

Meanwhile...honor your ancestors.

Your musical ancestors in this case.

Honor them for their achievements; honor them for their efforts, and honor them for their mistakes as well. It is on their shoulders that we all stand in an ongoing evolutionary process. Learn from their mistakes, but don't blame them. We'll make our mistakes as well. That's a good third bet.

After all...they did keep trying.

To the death, many of them.

How much more can one ask?

Later...

S

Quote from: savio on May 13, 2010, 05:18PMMusic is something you can listen or perform.  In our case with a trombone. When listen that's a personal thing. Also so when performing but there are a problem with performing. First of all you have to know the language. If you don't there will be problem to speak. And there will be problem for the listener to understand. what you say. And for us the trombone/technique/equipment is the language. So to give a message on our trombone we have to learn this. The better we learn it the more easy we can express our self.


leif, i agree with much of what you have said.  but, i have tried to stop thinking of technique as the language.  the language is what is written in the score.  those are the words.  in understanding those words and the conversations in the orchestration, a trombonist can make musical choices. 

i don't even believe that you have to be able to read a score to understand that language, but that you need only actively listen to music.  then in performance or listening, the technique becomes a means to an end...the music.

dg

Quote from: sabutin on May 13, 2010, 06:03PMIf one approaches the playing of a musical instrument...any musical instrument, including the voice...as a sort of meditational practice, then during the times that one successfully achieves this state all of the above questions become moot.

You jes' play.

Now of course, some people who are familiar w/my books or what I have written on the web over he last 8 years or so might well respond "Yeah. Right. 265 pages of incredibly detailed information on how to play the trombone. How to hold it; how to build an embouchure; how to move the slide, etc. Web posting after web posting about the importance of equipment and how to choose it. Arguments galore with various other posters. I got yer "meditation". Right here!!!"

This sort of response would stem from an incomplete understanding of the idea of "meditiation". Meditation is not necessarily a passive, sitting-and-waiting act. There are meditations in movement and even meditations in combat. (Read "The Book of Five Rings" by Musashi Miyamoto for all that you might need to know about that idea.)

I speak a great deal about internalizing the reactive motions that are involved in playing a brass instrument through the application of good time. Time, understanding and practice. But...why do this? Why make this effort? In order to excel at playing a badly written, repetitive Broadway show or deal with one's own local community orchestra?

And the answer is...yes.

In an imperfect world one can achieve a sort of perfection at times. Near-perfection, anyway. It really makes little difference whether you are playing the greatest music ever performed with the greatest orchestra ever assembled, improvising at the highest level known to mankind, dealing with a sad, ragtag-sounding bunch of semi-amateurs or waiting on line at the Post Office while he surliest clerk ever invented by a benevolent universe ignores the long line of customers in favor of meticulously cleaning his nails.

It is all a chance to work on yourself. To in some way awaken.

As are:

1-Scales

2-Arpeggios

3-Long tones

4-Equipment searches

and the long and various list of the other minutiae that must be at least to some degree mastered in order to succeed in playing a trombone at least passably well.

For those of us who get there and manage to stay there for an appreciable length of time...by hook or by crook, villains, saints and everything else in between...the results are glorious music.

Diz, Bird, Pops, Getz, Duke, Jim Knepper...you name it. Same same in the orchestral world.

All were, whether they chose to speak in these terms or not, meditators. People who managed to get up above the instrument, up above the distractions and exigencies of day-to-day life, and flat-out play. Play with nothing interfering between them and the music. No mind, no body, no soul, no nuthin'.

I call this state "right note". I have been there myself on occasion and I recognize it when I hear it.

When I meet it, too.

Now...all of the words that various musicians tend to put on their music? Like J.J. talking about never getting too high, too fast, or too loud? That is J. J.'s essence. His balance, his spirit, found through years of musical meditation. As are Diz's flights of trumpetistic and harmonic virtuosity, Bird's astoundingly intricate inside lines, Getz's inability to play an awkward note, Pops plaiyng like Gabriel incarnate, etc.

You cannot reach that state through inductive reasoning....J.J. says this or Casals/Heifetz/Coltrane say that. That is their essence, and it is the main reason why I mostly try to avoid "teaching" music. Give the student the tolls to learn ow to lay he horn physically and wish him well. Either he does it or he doesn't. However it happens...if indeed it does...it's not going to be "my" way unless he is my clone.

In closing, a story I just received this morning from the great bass trombonist Joe Randazzo, who gave up the instrument to become a high-level chef for a number of years and is now getting back into playing again.

A number of us used to trek out to Jimmy Knepper's house in Staten Island to play duets, trios, etc. with him. He rarely said much about how we played, instead choosing to once in a while mutter something like "Try that note in 4th" during a rest. Once in a while he'd get a little...exasperated...with some of us young'uns and actually try to tell us something directly, but "exasperated"for Jim looked a lot like "nearly comatose" for most other people. He just didn't act out much.

Anyway, he had suggested to Joe that he play a b in 5th at a certain point in one of the pieces that they were playing. Joe struggled with it for a while, and then during a break said to Jim that he just couldn't seem to get the right sound on that note no matter where he put the slide.

Jim's answer?

"You have to play it with the same spirit as your other Bbs."

Spirit.

Yup.

It worked, too.

Like dat.

Later...

S.

indeed.  thanks, sam. 

regarding meditation....i think of being primarily aware of silence, whether that is an absence of sound or an absence of thought.  then, when sound and thought creep in, they really pop into my awareness.  but, they don't surprise me because i was on alert by listening to the silence.  it takes a lot of concentration. 

what you have described here has been a meandering pursuit of mine throughout the years...mostly because i didn't have a real sense of what it was or that it was even possible.  but, after tasting it a few times in the past couple of years, i aim for it.  sometimes i get it.  but, there is joy in knowing it's possible and i can get there again if i really focus my mental energy. 

yes yes yes.

Quote from: D Gibson on May 14, 2010, 09:07AMleif, i agree with much of what you have said.  but, i have tried to stop thinking of technique as the language.  the language is what is written in the score.  those are the words.  in understanding those words and the conversations in the orchestration, a trombonist can make musical choices. 

i don't even believe that you have to be able to read a score to understand that language, but that you need only actively listen to music.  then in performance or listening, the technique becomes a means to an end...the music.

dg

I agree, when I did look at my post after I did not quite agree with my self. Look at me I cant many English words, but still I can say something(Hopefully) Look at a baby that only can two words. Some of them still say a lot. So that post was no good. I agree with you David.

Look at all trombonists in the hole world. Most of them have it as a hobby and they have fun. They have fun and just play. For a pro player I'm not sure what counts any longer and I see my self mostly as a teacher.  I just try to make my playing fun like I do with my children's. Still I try to make some music. That's all. Not on a high level but whats fun for me is to make some progress.

This discussion begin certainly to be interesting but some of the post are a bit complicated and long to understand for me and my English skills.   

I go and try to make some notes with sense out of my horn. If its a lucky day maybe it will. Who knows 

Quote from: savio on May 14, 2010, 10:06AM Look at a baby that only can two words. Some of them still say a lot.



i use this metaphor exactly with my students all the time.  they try to say something in a sophisticated way that is beyond their capability.  but, if they just try to say "something", then they'll find a way to do it. 

dg

Quote from: D Gibson on May 14, 2010, 12:19PMi use this metaphor exactly with my students all the time.  they try to say something in a sophisticated way that is beyond their capability.  but, if they just try to say "something", then they'll find a way to do it. 

dg

or admitting your inability to say it in those words/ways and saying it in equally meaningful but alternative way. This was primarily how I feel about Miles, he couldn't--or chose not to speak like Dizzy, accepted it and found the same meaning in inventive ways.

Listening to things he said in writing and interview he he seems like a brash, self aware individual but listening to his music he seems humble.

I work with a couple guys a few years older than me who used heroin. Neither of them has used for many, many years. Both of them said, 'Yeah it helps, sort of'. Both of them wish they never did it. Both of them said what Sabutin said--that it's a shortcut to something you could do better without it.