TromboneChat

Today I saw the latest trailer for the newest of the Star Wars movies and it made me realize how lucky we are to have the beautiful and iconic scores of John Williams. I did a quick google and found that he's still going strong at 83(!)

Unfortunately I can't imagine he'll be working much longer as he'll either retire or heaven forbid leave us to compose some tunes for the angel Gabriel, I can't help but wonder who there is who could pick up where he left off. Who could possibly match him on scores that he would have liked to have done if only he had more time?

A fine body of work. He managed to make movie music with themes again without being corny.

I wonder what he gets to do a Star Wars movie.

Howard Shore?

Would have said James Horner, but oops...

Lots of guys from his generation could have done the same.  Previn for instance.  As for going forward, maybe a Michael Feinstein, or does Michael Buble have arranging chops?  The kind of experience Williams came with, small group jazz with horns, songbook, jazz arranging, swing, is really hard to come by now.  Just look at the Boston Pops now.  Williams' successor in movies sure ain't the little $%^& who replaced him at the Pops.  He ain't got rhythm, as the song goes.  And the band can't swing.  It just may be you're right that there is no one to follow, or there will be someone to create something totally new instead. 

Fashions change. What I hear more and more of at the cinema is scores that aim directly for 'atmosphere', without being as interested in melody and structure as John Williams is. Not exclusively, but increasingly so, as an (undoubtedly odious) generalisation. I presume that this isn't just blind chance, that there is deliberate studio strategy behind it, based on what is appealing to people right now.

One thing's for certain - there will be no "next John Williams", just as there was no "new Bach" or "Wagner II". Whoever is the next to grab the field by the scruff of the neck will do it in their own unique way that will probably owe something to John Williams among others, but will at root be nothing but their own authentic voice.

It's a little bit like trombones... If you like a good Bach, don't mess around trying to emulate a Bach with Edwards or Rath. Go out and buy a good Bach.

Quote from: baileyman on Oct 20, 2015, 05:21AM Williams' successor in movies sure ain't the little $%^& who replaced him at the Pops. 


Just out of curiosity, what do you have against Kieth Lockhart? I played in a college band with him for 2 years.

Quote from: SilverBone on Oct 20, 2015, 12:57AMHoward Shore?

Would have said James Horner, but oops...

Absolutely love Shore's Lord of the Rings scores.  He's getting up there too though, wikipedia says he's almost 70.

There was a report on NPR the other day talking about Williams being unable to score Bridge of Spies for Spielberg due to illness.

http://www.npr.org/2015/10/17/449417429/composer-thomas-newman-teams-with-spielberg-for-bridge-of-spies

Interesting connection between the generations in the story.

Quote from: MoominDave on Oct 20, 2015, 05:48AMFashions change. What I hear more and more of at the cinema is scores that aim directly for 'atmosphere', without being as interested in melody and structure as John Williams is. Not exclusively, but increasingly so, as an (undoubtedly odious) generalisation. I presume that this isn't just blind chance, that there is deliberate studio strategy behind it, based on what is appealing to people right now.

I'm going to say there is some element of studio strategy in it because the repetitive nature of it makes it easier to modify and alter when a movie gets reshot and recut and it is also easier to do with electronic instruments.

Look at some really old records before he was a famous composer/orchestrator/conductor and he is listed as "Johnny Williams, piano". A nobody.

Maybe his successor will be a background musician whose talent is recognized like Nat King Cole, Ella Fitzgerald, Glenn Campbell, Danny Elfman or the like and is picked to be a great.

Yeah, sure

Most of Williams is thinly ( very thinly) veiled Richard Strauss.

Check out his score for "The Island" a turd of a swashbuckler flick adapted from a novel by Peter Benchley I believe. He takes almost ALL of " Ein Heldenleben" and just displaces it by one beat, so that a glorious melody that takes some hundreds of bars-- without repetition-- is now ON the beat.

Remember the theory that given enough time a room full of chimps banging away on type writers could write all of Shakespeare?

Well, those chimps-- given Finale or Sibelius and a score by Richard Strauss could recreate all of John Williams in about 10 minutes.

 Modesty prevents...

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Oct 20, 2015, 04:21PM
Well, those chimps-- given Finale or Sibelius and a score by Richard Strauss could recreate all of John Williams in about 10 minutes.



Perhaps this is a situation where one should colloquially "put up or shut up"?

Quote from: MrPillow on Oct 20, 2015, 04:38PMPerhaps this is a situation where one should colloquially "put up or shut up"?

I agree, I'd love to see this trick! I suggest tod und verklärung...

Hate to bash John Williams, but I'm in bonesmarsh's camp on this one. I love John Williams by himself but it hurts every time I'm listening to something and I think "wow that sounds just like _______" For example Raiders March is totally Resphigi's Roman Festivals. I find it hard to credit him when so many of his pieces can be connected to works he obviously took "inspiration" from. Music for Brass on the National Brass Ensemble album is very good, though.

As for a successor, Michael Giaccino seems to be doing a lot these days

George Lucas has said in multiple interviews that when he and Spielberg would discuss soundtracks with JW, they would have specific pieces of "classical" music in mind to convey the tone and timbre they wanted for each scene. I would venture a guess that it sounds like Ein Heldenleben because the director asked for it that way...

Even if he literally copied note-for-note something that happened in public domain, the fact that he knows where to look to get the sound he wants is still impressive.  Sure, you can passively watch a film and say, "Wow, that sounds extraordinarily similar to or identical to Strauss" but it's an entirely different scenario to know how to use that effectively and make it work with a film. 

Quote from: Matt K on Oct 21, 2015, 05:50AMEven if he literally copied note-for-note something that happened in public domain, the fact that he knows where to look to get the sound he wants is still impressive.  Sure, you can passively watch a film and say, "Wow, that sounds extraordinarily similar to or identical to Strauss" but it's an entirely different scenario to know how to use that effectively and make it work with a film. 

Exactly.

Besides which, taking an old melody and making it fresh is common in great compositions.

Look at Mozart's variations on "Ah, vous direz je Maman" (better known to us a "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star") or Brahms' "Variations on a Theme by Haydn".

In fact, Williams make some very interesting music by adding some odd time signatures to his pieces (to the eternal consternation of school music teachers who have to explain them to kids who are having enough trouble with 4/4).

Who will replace Williams?  We will know in due time.  And while I love your work, Jim, I don't think it's you.  Don't see your name on many movie sound tracks.

 Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 21, 2015, 09:12AM
Who will replace Williams?  We will know in due time.  And while I love your work, Jim, I don't think it's you.  Don't see your name on many movie sound tracks.

Well, not yet...

Quote from: jmtheob on Oct 21, 2015, 09:59AM
Well, not yet...
Jim, how about the next Aaron Copland?  That fit better?

I prefer "The Artist Formerly Known As 'Who?'"

Many directors use existing recordings as guide pieces when editing, then commission the score. The score may be derivative because what is wanted is conveyed with what is existing. It's a commercial endeavor, but there's an art and beauty to it when done well.

Stanley Kubrick famously stayed with the guide pieces for 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Quote from: KubrickHowever good our best film composers may be, they are not a Beethoven, a Mozart or a Brahms. Why use music which is less good when there is such a multitude of great orchestral music available from the past and from our own time? When you are editing a film, it's very helpful to be able to try out different pieces of music to see how they work with the scene...Well, with a little more care and thought, these temporary tracks can become the final score.
Film composer Alex North allegedly found out his work was abandoned while watching at the film's premiere. Makes for a good story, at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(score)

Quote from: wikiAlex North's main title theme has a striking resemblance to the "Also sprach Zarathustra" piece that would eventually be used in the final film.
 

He hasn't written a trombone concert yet.

Someone ought to commission one. Someone with a spare million or so.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Oct 21, 2015, 12:33PMHe hasn't written a trombone concert yet.

Someone ought to commission one. Someone with a spare million or so.

No, but both Jim Theobald and Ellen Taafe Zwilich have!

QuoteOther orchestral works

    1965: Prelude and Fugue
    1965: Symphony #1
    1968: Sinfonietta for Wind Ensemble
    1975: Thomas and the King – Musical
    1980: Jubilee 350 Fanfare
    1984: Olympic Fanfare & Theme
    1986: Liberty Fanfare
    1987: A Hymn to New England
    1988: Fanfare for Michael Dukakis
    1988: For New York
    1990: Celebrate Discovery
    1993: Sound the Bells!
    1994: Song for World Peace
    1995: Variations on Happy Birthday
    1999: American Journey
    2003: Soundings
    2007: Star Spangled Banner
    2008: A Timeless Call
    2012: Fanfare for Fenway
    2012: Seven for Luck for soprano and orchestra
    2013: For 'The President's Own'
    2014: Star Spangled Banner
    2014: Scherzo for Piano and Orchestra

The "Fanfare for Michael Dukakis" is a minor surprise. 

Interesting.  Two variations on Star Spangled Banner (To Anacreon in Heaven).

Quote from: Bmalta on Oct 20, 2015, 10:29PMHate to bash John Williams, but I'm in bonesmarsh's camp on this one. I love John Williams by himself but it hurts every time I'm listening to something and I think "wow that sounds just like _______" For example Raiders March is totally Resphigi's Roman Festivals. I find it hard to credit him when so many of his pieces can be connected to works he obviously took "inspiration" from. Music for Brass on the National Brass Ensemble album is very good, though.

As for a successor, Michael Giaccino seems to be doing a lot these days

Part of this relates to people not really understanding what film composers are required to do. If a director says "make it sound like Holst" than make it so. You want to write a great cue in a film? Better not worry about tempo and dramatic hits; those are all spelled out for you by the film edits, usually in a way that doesn't relate to musical structure. Want to orchestrate some really interesting colors? They better not sonically interfere with dialogue or sound effects going on at the same time.

Film composing is a tough craft. To be able to exert a clear, individual voice in that medium is crazy.

John Williams managed to make the world safe for melody again.

I've been watching some 60s films. It seems to be an era where they were trying NOT to resemble anything and... geez... it's pretty barren stuff.

It's hard to think of any great film music scores from that period that weren't in the service of a musical.

The Bond film scores are a happy exception, but I can't put my finger on many others.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Oct 21, 2015, 05:25PMJohn Williams managed to make the world safe for melody again.

I've been watching some 60s films. It seems to be an era where they were trying NOT to resemble anything and... geez... it's pretty barren stuff.

It's hard to think of any great film music scores from that period that weren't in the service of a musical.

The Bond film scores are a happy exception, but I can't put my finger on many others.




Ahem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMTrVgpDwPk

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Oct 21, 2015, 08:09PM
Ahem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMTrVgpDwPk

That's good film music, he's good, but Hermmann is old Hollywood and that's why he's good.

"Psycho" is just barely a 60's movie:  It's like "Magnificent 7" (the only other 60s movie, not a musical, with memorable music I could recall)... released in 1960.

Not very representative of the whole decade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuxHLzwlDY4

Now whistle me the theme from "Battle of the Bulge" (1965).

I just listened to it and I've already forgotten it...

https://www.youtube.com/v/HvOZm3RUz40

Yeah, that one is pretty forgettable.

What would we call that? 

The first minute could be imitation Bruckner. 

From 1:00 to 1:45 is more of a Shostakovich thing and then after that it reminds me of Holst (Hammersmith).


Lame trombone section.

My favorite composer is Michael Giacchino for sure.  Love his unique style, and his puns for names of songs.

Quote from: BGuttman on Oct 21, 2015, 09:12AMBesides which, taking an old melody and making it fresh is common in great compositions.

Look at Mozart's variations on "Ah, vous direz je Maman" (better known to us a "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star") or Brahms' "Variations on a Theme by Haydn".

In fact, Williams make some very interesting music by adding some odd time signatures to his pieces (to the eternal consternation of school music teachers who have to explain them to kids who are having enough trouble with 4/4).

Who will replace Williams?  We will know in due time.  And while I love your work, Jim, I don't think it's you.  Don't see your name on many movie sound tracks.
Totally agree there are so many examples of classical composers doing variations on Themes borrowed from Folk Melodies or other composers.  John Williams was writing and arranging music for Movie scores that he borrowed melodies from other works doesn't diminish the great arrangements he came up with that so perfectly fit the films.  What he did has been common practice in classical Music (and you can find many examples in Pop music also) forever.  I don't think you'll see any one composer to have the volume of work that Williams has produced, but I do think you will see multiple people step up who will produce quality music for films that will rival his. 

If you read here at this website Mr. Williams I thank you for your contributions over the years.  USD 500 late 70's/early 80's.  Made things better, I think.

As a composer and an adventurist, I love JW. I used to really dig it as a kid, became an adult and thought it was corny, learned to appreciate what the man does after my first forays into writing large scale works.

No, a room full of chimps banging away at Finale would not duplicate what he did, and just saying he's 99% Strauss is an insult to John and to Strauss. Start hanging out with the film scoring community, say that and prepare to get your ass handed to you as they delineate every major theme he's written and exactly where it came from.

It's one thing to learn how to write a theme in the style of Strauss... it's another thing entirely to do it convincingly in the style of every well known composer from Bach to Stravinsky to Korngold and do it in a way that still sounds like you.

Sorry, we usually agree but on this we don't. John is a genius who's work for film won't be duplicated. There's a million eastman grads that can write derivative scores. If they were anywhere near as proficient at it, if they had anywhere near the individual voice that J-dubs displayed from day one, they'd be getting paid to do it. Why pay J-dubs so much skrilla if any fool can do it? That'd just be bad business.


As for the next guy?

Bear McCreary gets my vote. He's scoring so many cable dramas - his work on BSG, Walking Dead, Black Sails, etc. keeps me tuning in if nothing else to hear the theme at the top.

I'd love to see more Johnny Greenwood, but he's too interesting to be the next "guy." And he seems like he gets bored easy so doing nothing but film would probably not be what he wants to do.

Me? Nahhhhh. FIlms are hard.

As a composer and an adventurist, I love JW. I used to really dig it as a kid, became an adult and thought it was corny, learned to appreciate what the man does after my first forays into writing large scale works.

No, a room full of chimps banging away at Finale would not duplicate what he did, and just saying he's 99% Strauss is an insult to John and to Strauss. Start hanging out with the film scoring community, say that and prepare to get your ass handed to you as they delineate every major theme he's written and exactly where it came from.

It's one thing to learn how to write a theme in the style of Strauss... it's another thing entirely to do it convincingly in the style of every well known composer from Bach to Stravinsky to Korngold and do it in a way that still sounds like you.

Sorry, we usually agree but on this we don't. John is a genius who's work for film won't be duplicated. There's a million eastman grads that can write derivative scores. If they were anywhere near as proficient at it, if they had anywhere near the individual voice that J-dubs displayed from day one, they'd be getting paid to do it. Why pay J-dubs so much skrilla if any fool can do it? That'd just be bad business.


As for the next guy?

Bear McCreary gets my vote. He's scoring so many cable dramas - his work on BSG, Walking Dead, Black Sails, etc. keeps me tuning in if nothing else to hear the theme at the top.

I'd love to see more Johnny Greenwood, but he's too interesting to be the next "guy." And he seems like he gets bored easy so doing nothing but film would probably not be what he wants to do.

Me? Nahhhhh. FIlms are hard.