What do you do when people don't like your sound?

[mrdeacon]

I've had kind of had a strange encounter in a orchestral type gig I'm doing where someone doesn't like my "sound".

I've had this happen in the past in school ensembles.

I had a professor who didn't like my Euphonium sound. I have a very traditional British style sound, and they studied Woodwinds at North Texas and had a very different concept of what a Euphonium should sound like. At the time I just said screw it and kept playing how I normally did. Later I had another run in after I transferred schools with a different Wind Ensemble conductor (what is it with Wind Ensemble conductors and Euphonium sound?) and at the time I did the same thing, and kept doing my own thing. I never heard anything but good comments from other teachers and members of the bands.

While I was in these ensembles my private teachers all more or less said the same thing, sound how you want to sound, if you think you sound good and you're making a appropriate sound for the instrument, that you enjoy, that's all that matters. I have recordings of myself playing in various groups inside and outside of school and I enjoy how I sound, so I put that to rest.

Since this latest comment is in a group/gig outside of school, I'm not sure how to approach this situation...

I do have a Getzen 1062FDR which is quite a bit larger then my Minick and might fit the situation better but I honestly don't like how it sounds or plays as much as my main bass. One of my favorite things about my Minick is I feel it really resonates and can fit in just about any ensemble.

I've run into situations in the past where I've had a instrument that didn't blend well with an ensemble but I think this is a case more of sound concept then instrument choice... Even though my Minick is on the smaller end of the bass spectrum with a 9 1/4 bell and a .562 single bore slide... I personally don't feel like I'm unbalanced in the overall mix of the sound.

Should I continue playing how I do or should I try and conform to a different sound concept?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!

[Burgerbob]

Jim Miller is one of the best musicians I know, not because he is a good trombonist (though he is) but because he is an absolute chameleon. He can play principal in the Phil, then later that night play in his salsa group. I can guarantee he doesn't use the same sound in both places!

That's not to say he doesn't ever not sound amazing, of course. But his box of sounds is one very large box that he can choose from.

[Doug Elliott]

Do you know what direction you need to go to please this particular conductor?

In some situations, how you feel about your sound, balance, and blend is a lot less important than how the person out front feels about it. From the perspective in front, you may sound very different than you think.

Before you lose the gig... record the ensemble from the front and see how you blend, or not.

Maybe it's not really "sound.". Maybe it's articulation, or pitch - things like that may sound different out front than what you think you're doing.

Clarify the situation, don't guess. And don't equate this with past school experiences.

[mrdeacon]

Thanks for the post Burgerbob and Doug!

Burgerbob, I think I definitely need to work on creating different sounds. I haven't had a huge amount of experience playing "classical" bass trombone with various groups. Most of my experience actually leans more towards solo playing, wind ensemble and chamber type playing, for both bass and Euphonium. I'll have to listen to more orchestras and figure out what I should sound like for each situation.

Doug, I'm not in danger of losing the gig but I'm in a situation where I feel I need to adapt.

I should have for sure been more clear!

What I've been told is that I don't have "presence" in the group. I have recordings of myself with the group and I think out front it sounds fine, but within the brass section I think they feel they aren't receiving enough feedback from me. By feedback I mean sound within the ensemble not necessarily out front with the audience.

I'll have to make more recordings of myself and keep listening! Doug, I think I'll also send you a message off the forums and possibly ask about mouthpiece stuff too...

[blast]

What instruments are the tenor players using ? The tuba ? There are ways of adapting without changing instruments......

Chris

[Doug Elliott]

I left out "time" in my previous reply. If you're playing a fraction late - very common in bass trombonists - your sound will get lost and maybe lack "presence."

In any case, record the ensemble and listen critically for all of those things, and also have somebody else listen to get a different view. Not just sound quality, but volume, articulation, pitch, and time.

[mrdeacon]

What instruments are the tenor players using ? The tuba ? There are ways of adapting without changing instruments......

Chris

Tenors are on a Conn 8h, Bach 42 and the tuba player is on a Miraphone 186. My Minick is sorta like a yellow brass 62H type horn. We're all using smaller stuff.

For what it's worth the comment came from the principal trumpet player...

[mrdeacon]

I left out "time" in my previous reply. If you're playing a fraction late - very common in bass trombonists - your sound will get lost and maybe lack "presence."

In any case, record the ensemble and listen critically for all of those things, and also have somebody else listen to get a different view. Not just sound quality, but volume, articulation, pitch, and time.

Thanks Doug!

That makes a lot of sense. I never really thought about playing a fraction late. I'll have to record and specifically listen for everything you mentioned.

So far in my recordings I've really just been listening for sound quality.

[imsevimse]

Euphonium
I obviously have never heard you, but I have had some thoughts on euophonium players in windorchestras and their sound in that situation in general.

One problem I have felt is they can be to dominant and can take over, it is especially a problem in unison playing with a trombone or with the trombone section.

A second problem is the vibrato can be to wide for my taste.

A third problem is the euphonium is often played to loud.

The fourth problem is the intonation.

I want the euphonium player to adjust to the role it gets. Often it is a solo part with a lyrical melody or a second melody. Sometimes it is a part of the trombone section and sometimes it is a part of the tuba section. The player must blend well in those situations and fill the appropriate role.

What I do?
When I play euphonium I think of these things very much. I think I focus on these things because I have experience sitting next to an euphonium player as a trombonist.

Bass trombone
The problems I've had with bass trombone sounds as a tenor trombone player.

First problem is if there is a "diffuse" sound. It makes intonation difficult in the section. As the first trombone player I always listen for the bass trombone to lock into that sound. I play better if the bass trombone player has a pregnant sound. Not necessarily loud, but a sound that has a lot of projection.

The second problem is intonation. I will always change my pitch to lock into the bass trombone players intonation. The pitch is controlled by the bass trombone player. If I notice my positions are all over the place to be in tune it indicates to me the bass trombone player is not very accurate with his intonation. He is having a hard time finding the pitch.

The third problem is if the bass trombone player has a late sound. He might get that because he is insecure and "swells" on the attacks and his intent is to tune to the rest of the section. It must be the other way around.

The fourth problem is if the bass tone pitch is changing during long chords. The bass player must get his sonorous sound at once so the rest of the section can set the chord. The bass trombone player shall not change his pitch to match an out of tune Baryton sax player or an out of tune bassoon player or a diffuse double bass player. "Not to play out of tune" is the really tough task in an amateur orchestra. It needs a very strong bass trombone player to master that skill. If the trombone section can stay in tune in an out of tune symphony orchestra the whole orchestra is helped by that.

What I do?
As a bass trombone player I think of the experience I've had as a lead trombone player and what I want from a bass trombone player in that situation. I try to make a pregnant sound that projects well so the lead player can lock into that sound.
I know I'm very responsible to set the pitch of the chords. I know how it feels to play with bass trombone player who have intonation problems. The rest in the section have to adjust. The bass trombonist must be spot on pitch right away and not change, that's what I try to do.

/Tom

[blast]

What instruments are the tenor players using ? The tuba ? There are ways of adapting without changing instruments......

Chris

Tenors are on a Conn 8h, Bach 42 and the tuba player is on a Miraphone 186. My Minick is sorta like a yellow brass 62H type horn. We're all using smaller stuff.

For what it's worth the comment came from the principal trumpet player...

A shot in the dark.... you are amongst pretty traditional stuff and playing an instrument that should fit fine.... could it be the mouthpiece? The Minick was built in a time when most people played smaller bass mouthpieces than today and I expect it was built to work with such mouthpieces. Too big a mouthpiece for the instrument will give the results that you are talking about.

Chris

[RustBeltBass]

[

For what it's worth the comment came from the principal trumpet player...

‘Nuff said

[imsevimse]

I've had kind of had a strange encounter in a orchestral type gig I'm doing where someone doesn't like my "sound".

Most unmusical sounds are not from bass trombone players.

In general when I don't like someone's sound it is a "toot" sound that is unmusical because it is misplaced. It is a sound that does not fit the musical context.

It is either:
1) an unconscious "tooting". I come to think of a memory of two french horns in a symphony orchestra where one horn plays in tempo with a nice articulation and a good balance but the other horn plays with annoying "swells" in the attacs. Second part also plays much to loud. It sounds unmusical like someone's doing a lot of "tooting".

2) a "tooting" sound that hurts. I come to think of a trumpet sound that is unbalanced and also a but sharp. It hurts my ears because the high overtones are dominant. And it messes my intonation to have such a lead trumpet sound in my ears.

3) a deliberately loud "toot" from a particular lead saxophone-player when tuning the alto saxophone to a tuner. It is (in my ears) a sound close to a screaming pig. I do not understand why somebody allows themselves to play a tuning note that loud and unmusical.

4) a lot if accidental "tooting". I come to think of a french horn player that cracks on most entrances. Does not matter if it is high or low notes, loud or soft. Everything is loud. Almost everything is a miss and any tone is out of tune.

5) a sound of a loud piccolo flute that makes the audience cover their ears.

6) screaming guitars that force me to use my ear plugs.

I can not imagine a bass trombone come close to any of those... problems.

What to do if someone complain on your sound?
Always listen to what is going on around you and do your best to make a sound that fits the musical context. If you are playing in a symphony orchestra and have a lot of rests then take time to listen and learn the parts of everybody else as you are counting. It will help you prepare for your entrance so you play in time and become a part of the flow and the bigger picture. Don't be late for entrances.

/Tom

[mrdeacon]

Thanks again for all your input guys! Tom, Chris, and Doug, your last couple of posts have made me really think!

What to do if someone complain on your sound?
Always listen to what is going on around you and do your best to make a sound that fits the musical context. If you are playing in a symphony orchestra and have a lot of rests then take time to listen and learn the parts of everybody else as you are counting. It will help you prepare for your entrance so you play in time and become a part of the flow and the bigger picture. Don't be late for entrances.

So this is with a local community orchestra, they aren't awful but they aren't the greatest either, and this comment happened after a summer pops concert. Sorry to everyone for being vague earlier, there are people on the forums who know my handle and are local to me, so just in case they know the people in the group I wanted to have some sense of anonymity.

I've been listening to recordings of the past concert and some I have of a previous concert. I was specifically looking for the things Doug and Tom mentioned. Intonation, articulation and time. I noticed frequently things would sometimes get swimmy with the time (not necessarily always my fault originally but sometimes it was) and during those times it sounded like I was a millisecond late.

Which is exactly what both Doug and Tom described. I think with this group in particular I need to hold myself to a higher standard with listening and counting. Not that I haven't been holding myself to that higher standard in other groups but in this one I might have been unintentionally turning my brain off sometimes.

I'll continue to make more recordings and I'll talk more with a few friends in the ensemble with what they think of my playing in that group.

Chris, I will look into maybe checking out a different cup size. I'm currently using a LB M cup and a LB M8 shank. I feel the shank fits well with the horn but I've had a suspicion that I might want to switch to a L or K cup to fit the horn better. I'll continue to work on the fundamentals I mentioned above before I make any changes though!!!

Thanks again for the help everyone! I'm glad to know that this might be more of a fundamentals thing which I can work on and less a true "sound concept" issue. I will make sure to have a lesson or two in the future to also try and address these things further.

Please continue to comment! I'm really enjoying the ideas you guys have in regards sound!!

[Jimkinkella]

Hey Philip, when I tried that horn a K worked pretty well, better than an L for me. I was using a 9 shank, the 8 would probably help as well.
Doug's guess on time would be my 1st guess, too.

[blast]

I can make an LB M cup and shank work on a Conn 62H... that's what I used on the 'Wallace Collection' recording of the Malcolm Arnold Symphony for brass...downloadable on the usual sites. But, the Conn is generally happier with a much smaller cup.... even down to a J a lot of the time. You might be surprised....

Chris

[RustBeltBass]

I can make an LB M cup and shank work on a Conn 62H... that's what I used on the 'Wallace Collection' recording of the Malcolm Arnold Symphony for brass...downloadable on the usual sites. But, the Conn is generally happier with a much smaller cup.... even down to a J a lot of the time. You might be surprised....

Chris

A lot of faces are also happier with a smaller cup....just sayin’

[Mikebmiller]

If it is a paid gig, try to adjust to what they want. If it is a free gig, tell them to take a hike.

[JohnL]

Beware of conductors that listen with their eyes...

[baileyman]

...
I've been listening to recordings of the past concert and some I have of a previous concert. I was specifically looking for the things Doug and Tom mentioned. Intonation, articulation and time. I noticed frequently things would sometimes get swimmy with the time (not necessarily always my fault originally but sometimes it was) and during those times it sounded like I was a millisecond late.
...

Very interesting. It seems people criticized your "sound" when perhaps what they meant was your "time".

(Related to another post long ago and far away, I cannot imagine how such imprecision could be improved by something metaphorical, like, to make something up, they didn't like your "presence", or "aura", or maybe "banana".)

[Doug Elliott]

Intonation, articulation and time frequently get
lumped into "sound," with some justification because they all contribute.

[peteedwards]

...
I've been listening to recordings of the past concert and some I have of a previous concert. I was specifically looking for the things Doug and Tom mentioned. Intonation, articulation and time. I noticed frequently things would sometimes get swimmy with the time (not necessarily always my fault originally but sometimes it was) and during those times it sounded like I was a millisecond late.
...

Very interesting. It seems people criticized your "sound" when perhaps what they meant was your "time".

(Related to another post long ago and far away, I cannot imagine how such imprecision could be improved by something metaphorical, like, to make something up, they didn't like your "presence", or "aura", or maybe "banana".)

From now on, I shall always strive for more banana in my sound!

[hyperbolica]

"Presence" might give a clue. If you talk to tubists, some of them tend to think that they have a partnership with the bass trombone to produce the bass foundation. The tuba provides the presence, and the bass bone provides the edge or bite. Maybe there is something to be learned from examining your sonic relationship to to tuba in this group.

Beyond that, there's a wide range of possible bass bone sounds, and therefor a wide range of taste in bass bone sounds. Maybe just change your hardware and see what the conductor's reaction is. Regardless, I would have a short conversation with them and let it be known that you're trying and leave the door open for them to give more specific feedback, or at least feedback on changes.

[mrdeacon]

Very interesting. It seems people criticized your "sound" when perhaps what they meant was your "time".

(Related to another post long ago and far away, I cannot imagine how such imprecision could be improved by something metaphorical, like, to make something up, they didn't like your "presence", or "aura", or maybe "banana".)

This reminds me of a post recently on the trombone pedagogy page where someone ranted about people incorrectly marking their music and how marking music is no longer taught in schools.

I find it odd that many musicians do not know how to articulate what they're saying whether it be about style or sound. I had this happen yesterday while doing a pop gig, the band leader wasn't able to describe what a shake was to the lead trumpet player

[Doug Elliott]

A shake is like a frappe, but with the right notes.

You'd think a lead trumpet player would know that.

In the words of Bill Potts, "MILK IT !!!"

[Savio]

Did they tell what about your sound on bass trombone they didn't like? And what do you think your self? That trombone should fit well in all settings. Maybe the trumpet player complaining about your sound just had a bad day? They often have you know….if they dont hit their high note. I dont know what to do, just play as good you can with a singing nice voice. Keep on.

[edgrissom]

Get a new sound or get new people.

[harrisonreed]

If you have been told by multiple people across multiple groups that they don't like your sound, but you like your sound, what does that really tell you?

Accepting that what they really might mean is that your intonation or timing might be wonky, and you don't have a pinpoint on what they are really trying to convey, you should still take heed.

You mentioned playing with a traditional british brass band sound (which is actually more about the style of playing than the actual isolated tone) and using that in a wind ensemble on euph. The director says "I don't like your sound", but he might really mean, "what is with this style of articulation, phrasing, and vibrato? Have you heard a wind ensemble before?". Meanwhile, you are personally loving your brass band "sound". That's a square peg.

Aidan is able to put it very neatly - it's all about adaptability. You don't play a march like Joe Alessi plays Mahler. The style is completely wrong, and it shows you don't understand the march style (articulations, written note length is not literal, etc). You don't play an Ewazen part on euph like you play a brass band chart. I don't know what might be the issue with the bass trombone playing, but I bet it is related to style.

Sound is a broad word, so like others have said, you need quantifiable feedback. If you ask for clarification, it may turn out to be something completely different than "tone".

[Leisesturm]

I think everyone who has posted has had critical insights to offer the original poster. In fact they have only gotten more to it as the thread went on till @harrisonreed hit it right out of the park this morning. All the critical technical insights have now been discussed. The reason why I singled out @harrisonreed's post is because they mentioned what I think is the critical piece of the o.p.'s dilemma: intonation. It is the third rail of ensemble musicianship. Directors (I am one) and musicians can forgive lots of technical faults in our bandmates except sloppy intonation. But its hard to just say to someone, "hey, you can't play in tune, what's up with that?" So you critique some vague aspect of their 'sound'. Sounds about right.

In fact I thought it was all over when the o.p. mentioned liking their 'sound'. That's the problem right there. In an ensemble you have just one job: to play in tune! I have not found it in any way a bad thing to focus ONLY on locking in with the rest of the ensemble with respect to intonation. They could care less if your tone is too bright or too dull to be characteristic for the instrument, but it must be audible, of course, and it must be perfectly in tune. No less, no more. When you are playing a solo (maybe) you can think a little bit more about what a characteristic sound for the instrument might be, but not too much. You can only sound like you. Just blow the thing. What comes out is what comes out. There isn't a lot you can do about the character of the sound but there is heaps that can be done about the intonation. Work on that. A good tuning app is a must for the modern brass musician. An absolute must. FWIW.

[sterb225]

The single most important lesson I took after undergrad was the one where the prof looked at me, complimented my massive orchestral sound and then told me it was inappropriate for the French solo I was playing ... no one sound is appropriate for every situation and knowing how and when to change is a huge part of becoming a more mature player. In the end I needed to re-tool my embouchure to allow for this and along the way lost a little of that massive sound, but gained so much more in having a broader spectrum of tools at my disposal.